thesometimesaint Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 frankenstein:At 19 I joined the US military. Believe me you get REAL familiar with how binding a contract is.
USU78 Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I love that BYU has a whole department dedicated to investigating Honor Code violations and seems to encourage students to turn in violators.I saw a sign once on the yBu campus. It said:Trespassers Will Be Violated!
Jason Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 to all, yes, I understand it is an idiom, it is a silly idiom which does not convey much.Frankly I am not surprised that you don't find this particular idiom in any way compelling or meaningful.
Garden Girl Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 My LDS inactive sister called me first thing this a.m. to tell me about John Gibson's talk radio show during the night... and the discussion on this topic that took place. She was so excited because apparently it was a really good, thoughtful discussion by individuals calling in with various backgrounds weighing in with their opinions. And, the LDS callers were fewer than the majority. There were only a few callers that mocked, and in the end at the end of the show, a slight majority agreed that the Honor Code and BYU's upholding it was a positive thing.When I attended BYU in 1959-60 (yeah, I know...old fogey), I signed the Honor Code and sent it in with my application. This So Cal surfer girl was well aware of the Code before even setting foot on campus, and fully understood the consequences if I chose not to follow the Code. It was my choice, and I took it seriously. No one forced me to sign, or to apply to attend BYU. I'm assuming the same is true today. from the beach... GG
thesometimesaint Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 GG:It was still true for me when I attended in the mid 1970's, after a stint in the Air Force. You're just a slightly older fogie than I am.
frankenstein Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Frankly I am not surprised that you don't find this particular idiom in any way compelling or meaningful.back when I used to make "real men" statements I could often be heard saying "Real men smoke, Camel Non-filters or Marlboro Reds without the filter, not Marlboro Light 100 or parliments"as I have agreed, good character is being honest and accepting consequences to ones actions.
Jeff K. Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 FrankYou toss out red herrings and yet, I do not believe you are scandanavian. There is an ethos in America and in Europe and elsewhere that men (and women) live up to their obligations, it is part and parcel with being "honorable". I do not think anyone here would argue that men and women should not be honorable in both their actions and fulfillment of their obligations. Do real men go to BYU? One could argue either position with that, however I do believe in the most positive sense that real men (and women) do indeed meet their obligations, take responsibility for their own agreements, especially when given the freedom of choice.
Jaybear Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 One could argue either position with that, however I do believe in the most positive sense that real men (and women) do indeed meet their obligations, take responsibility for their own agreements, especially when given the freedom of choice.Real men and real women make also mistakes. The only question here is whether the punishment fit the crime. I think that if the concern is that he stay on the correct spiritual path, then he needs to work out his issues with his bishop. I think the draconian punishment meted out here is driven more by a desire to preserve the reputation of the school, than out of concern for his spirituality.
bluebell Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Real men and real women make also mistakes. The only question here is whether the punishment fit the crime. I think that if the concern is that he stay on the correct spiritual path, then he needs to work out his issues with his bishop. I think the draconian punishment meted out here is driven more by a desire to preserve the reputation of the school, than out of concern for his spirituality.So BYU's enforcement of it's own honor code is worthy of derision?
Jaybear Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 So BYU's enforcement of it's own honor code is worthy of derision?Yes. How refreshing. Someone restated what I said, and got it right. What BYU did to Unga and Davies was excessive.
Jason Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 He hasn't been expelled. In fact, basically he's now going to school for completely free - he doesn't even have to play basketball to pay for it.
Glenn101 Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 There are just some ridiculous items in the honor code. Much of it I appreciate. Some of it is absurd. What a waste of a Dr's time signing forms for "beard exceptions"What is the process for obtaining a beard exception for medical reasons?A student who wishes to obtain a beard exception must visit a BYU Student Health Center doctor by appointment (422.5156). The doctor will fax his recommendation. The student then needs to come to the Honor Code Office to fill out some paperwork and receive the letter allowing the growth of the beard, if approved. If a yearly beard exception is granted, a new Student ID will be issued after the beard has been fully grown, and must be renewed every year by repeating the process. If a request is granted for a temporary or more permanent beard exception the student will be notified by the Honor Code Office; at which time the student will come into the office to complete the necessary paperwork. After completion of this process the student may then grow a full beard according the guidelines given.If a request is granted for a temporary or more permanent beard exception the student will be notified by the Honor Code Office; at which time the student will come into the office to complete the necessary paperwork. After completion of this process the student may then grow a full beard according the guidelines given.Dean Smith at North Carolina had a no beard policy except for medical reasons. No tattoos, etc. It was not a school honor code thing, but his own personal policies. Yet he was able to recruit good to great basketball players on a regular basis.Glenn
bluebell Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Yes. How refreshing. Someone restated what I said, and got it right. What BYU did to Unga and Davies was excessive.Does Davies have no personal responsibility though? Is it worthy of notice that someone would sign an agreement not to have premarital sex and accept thousands of dollars worth of education and then do it anyway?It's interesting that all the negative statements are directed at BYU.
Jeff K. Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Real men and real women make also mistakes. The only question here is whether the punishment fit the crime. I think that if the concern is that he stay on the correct spiritual path, then he needs to work out his issues with his bishop. I think the draconian punishment meted out here is driven more by a desire to preserve the reputation of the school, than out of concern for his spirituality.You call it draconian. I don't. Premarital sex to a Mormon school is a betrayal of some basic principles of what is important. Perhaps sex for you is unimportant, perhaps people sleeping around deserves a slap on the wrist. But Mormons feel different, and if I recall the school adheres to Mormon standards which all who wish to attend agree to live by. The same response and penalty would exist regardless of who was informed. Whether it be the least known among us or the most well known. The reputation of the school is resultant of the equality of action between all involved, the idea that chastity is too important to be considered the equivalent of a diet that one can be on as a new years resolution. You of course have a negative perception of Mormons so I would not expect you to understand the issue of honor and spirituality being paramount. You cannot concieve of it among Mormons. To you any action taken would be base and a powerplay. If leniency were given, you would have shouted from the rooftops how Mormons have situational ethics. You will forgive me for exposing your hypocrisy in this situation. BYU did the right thing, and I believe that all parties are acting honorably in uderstanding what was probably a tragic error of judgement along with consequences for such error.
Mordecai Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 ...What BYU did to Unga and Davies was excessive...Davies and Unga disagreed... or at least they appeared to, when they agreed to follow the honor code.
USU78 Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Davies and Unga disagreed... or at least they appeared to, when they agreed to follow the honor code.I agree . . . it's not for everybody and, if you agree to it, even as a feckless 18-year-old, you live up to your obligations. The problem on the instant young man's treatment is the media feeding frenzy that ensued because of how and, IMO, why the news came out and how the school has kept talking about it under goading from the press. SHUT UP ALREADY! Let these kids heal.
ERayR Posted March 5, 2011 Posted March 5, 2011 Don't know if anyone else heard, but on Good Morning America today they said he was dismissed for pre-marital sex.http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6175090
Jaybear Posted March 6, 2011 Posted March 6, 2011 Davies and Unga disagreed... or at least they appeared to, when they agreed to follow the honor code.So you infer from the fact that they signed the honor code, that they concur with you that the punishment they received for violating the code was not excessive. Hard to argue with that logic.
thesometimesaint Posted March 6, 2011 Posted March 6, 2011 Jaybear:While I drive I agree to follow the rules of the road. When I was in the US military I agreed to follow the rules of my government. When I went to BYU I agreed to follow the rules of the Honor Code.Life is full of rules.
Jaybear Posted March 6, 2011 Posted March 6, 2011 Jaybear:While I drive I agree to follow the rules of the road. When I was in the US military I agreed to follow the rules of my government. When I went to BYU I agreed to follow the rules of the Honor Code.Life is full of rules.TSS, I know all about rules. That was not my point. I did not say, suggest, hint, or imply that they should not have to follow the rules. I stated without equivocation or ambiguity that in my opinion, the punishment imposed for the infraction was excessive.In the case of Unga, removal from the team, and suspension from school impacted both his academic and professional future. This despite the fact that he did the right thing, by marrying his pregnant girlfriend. If you want to defend the punishment, then tell me that if you were in charge, you would have done the same thing. And if so, what purpose is accomplished.
TAO Posted March 6, 2011 Posted March 6, 2011 TSS, I know all about rules. That was not my point. I did not say, suggest, hint, or imply that they should not have to follow the rules. I stated without equivocation or ambiguity that in my opinion, the punishment imposed for the infraction was excessive.In the case of Unga, removal from the team, and suspension from school impacted both his academic and professional future. This despite the fact that he did the right thing, by marrying his pregnant girlfriend. If you want to defend the punishment, then tell me that if you were in charge, you would have done the same thing. And if so, what purpose is accomplished.You would also have to make the case that military trials are too excessive - they are oftentimes far more serious, and with worse consequences than this.Actually... compared to this... regular trials are too excessive even. Jail time - and having to go through a very long process to even get it erased. Even for something as small as teenagers TPing a house, it goes on your record.TBH, we should worry more about the court systems than this - the court systems punishments are far more severe than what was given with this.Best Wishes,TAO
ERayR Posted March 6, 2011 Posted March 6, 2011 TSS, I know all about rules. That was not my point. I did not say, suggest, hint, or imply that they should not have to follow the rules. I stated without equivocation or ambiguity that in my opinion, the punishment imposed for the infraction was excessive.In the case of Unga, removal from the team, and suspension from school impacted both his academic and professional future. This despite the fact that he did the right thing, by marrying his pregnant girlfriend. If you want to defend the punishment, then tell me that if you were in charge, you would have done the same thing. And if so, what purpose is accomplished.In his professional future, when he goes to work for someone he will be informed of the company rules aand policies and will be asked to agree to them. If he doesn't he won't get the job. If he does then ignores them he will be invited to leave the company. Don't you think that will impact his professional future just a wee bit. The honor code is not an abstract concept dreamed up by the school. It has a connection to the real world.
Jaybear Posted March 6, 2011 Posted March 6, 2011 In his professional future, when he goes to work for someone he will be informed of the company rules aand policies and will be asked to agree to them. If he doesn't he won't get the job. If he does then ignores them he will be invited to leave the company. Don't you think that will impact his professional future just a wee bit. The honor code is not an abstract concept dreamed up by the school. It has a connection to the real world.He must not be very smart if he has to be kicked off the team/kicked out of school in order to learn that simple lesson. What if he were allowed to play, but had to wear a scarlet "F" on his jersey, so that everyone will know he fornicated? That would less excessive, as he has already been branded publicly as a fornicator. This way he could play, and serve as reminder of the importance of chastity. TOA: You would also have to make the case that military trials are too excessive - they are oftentimes far more serious, and with worse consequences than this.Actually... compared to this... regular trials are too excessive even. Jail time - and having to go through a very long process to even get it erased. If you are going to suggest a comparison, then you need to offer some specific examples. Even for something as small as teenagers TPing a house, it goes on your record.Huh? Having a private record which reflects that you were caught TP a house is excessive punishment for those who are caught TPing a house.
Mordecai Posted March 6, 2011 Posted March 6, 2011 ...So you infer from the fact that they signed the honor code, that they concur with you that the punishment they received for violating the code was not excessive...No, that's not exactly what I said. However, we might ask them to see if they felt their punishment was too harsh. They may or may not feel that way now, but we can't say. We're not mind-readers.If they feel it was too harsh, they don't understand the principle of justice. If you are given a privilege on the condition of following a set of rules, it's perfectly just to take away that privilege when the rules are violated. They were never entitled to play BYU sports. It was always conditional, and they were made aware of that fact from the beginning. Do you think they were entitled to play BYU sports in the first place? If so, why? They don't own the school, didn't invent football or basketball and were never required to ever even attend BYU at all.
ERayR Posted March 6, 2011 Posted March 6, 2011 He must not be very smart if he has to be kicked off the team/kicked out of school in order to learn that simple lesson. You can be so obtuse. He agreed to a code with a set of consequences for breeching the code. The punishment was affixed when he agreed. It is not a surprise. It wouldn't be very effective nor fair now if the penalties were waived because he was a star athlete, would it?What if he were allowed to play, but had to wear a scarlet "F" on his jersey, so that everyone will know he fornicated? That would less excessive, as he has already been branded publicly as a fornicator. This way he could play, and serve as reminder of the importance of chastity. That was not the punishment in the original agreement. See above. Severe punishment? It was what was agreed on when he signed the honor code. He obviously didn't think it excessive then or he wouldn't have agreed.Edited to add: Perhaps it is because it doesn't fit your agenda to see it as it is that you are being so obtuse?
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