BYU Athletics v. Honor Code

[Mordecai]

If people haven't seen this, this is pretty cool: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6174077

[bluebell]

If people haven't seen this, this is pretty cool: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6174077

I watched that last night-it was pretty cool. It's great to see people who aren't even mormon respect BYU for their honor code. I like how the one commentator said that BYU recognizes that it's not about winning, but about trying to teach "how to be a real man".

[Jeff K.]

I watched that last night-it was pretty cool. It's great to see people who aren't even mormon respect BYU for their honor code. I like how the one commentator said that BYU recognizes that it's not about winning, but about trying to teach "how to be a real man".

Very cool

[frankenstein]

[there's certain things more important than a game we're] trying to teach "how to be a real man".

in what way? what is being "a man" according to the Church?

A male with hair past their collar isn't "a man"?

A male who lets a female us his bathroom isn't "a man"?

A male who does not go to Church isn't "a man"?

honesty isn't about chromosomes.

accepting consequences is not about chromosomes.

[Gohan]

If people haven't seen this, this is pretty cool: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6174077

That was awesome!

in what way? what is being "a man" according to the Church?

A male with hair past their collar isn't "a man"?

A male who lets a female us his bathroom isn't "a man"?

A male who does not go to Church isn't "a man"?

honesty isn't about chromosomes.

accepting consequences is not about chromosomes.

Wow, really?

It's about making promises, making them on your own honor, and sticking to them even when its hard. 'Swearing to your own hurt' as it says in Psalms I believe. That ability to stick through and keep true to your word, that's what helps define character.

[frankenstein]

Wow, really?

yes, really, part of the Honor Code is not allowing not allowing members of the opposite gender in ones bathroom , part of the honor code has to do with hair length, part of the honor code has to do with church attendance. So do only "real men" have their hair a certain length, or go to church?

It's about making promises, making them on your own honor, and sticking to them even when its hard. 'Swearing to your own hurt' as it says in Psalms I believe. That ability to stick through and keep true to your word, that's what helps define character.

and as I posted, honesty and accepting consequences isn't about chromosomes. any male can be honesty, so too can any female.

I challenged the statement that "being a man" or "real man" has nothing to do with the BYU honor code. And that hair length, or honesty has nothing to do with "being a man" or "real man".

[Jason]

Keeping promises, however, has everything to do with being a man. If you promise to obey by a code of rules you obey it or you pay the consequences. Learning that lesson would help our society tremendously, and it's a lesson BYU is teaching well in this instance.

[Gohan]

Wow, really?

yes, really, part of the Honor Code is not allowing not allowing members of the opposite gender in ones bathroom , part of the honor code has to do with hair length, part of the honor code has to do with church attendance. So do only "real men" have their hair a certain length, or go to church?

Clearly missed the fact that the 'Wow, really' wasn't in response to what you said, but how you said it. In case you missed the earlier post, I go to a BYU right now. I am somewhat informed on the rules of the Honor Code.

Also, fun fact. The bathroom rule is actually subject to the complex you're in, and where the bathroom's located in the apartment. Least from what our complex here in Rexburg told us.

[frankenstein]

Keeping promises, however, has everything to do with being a man. If you promise to obey by a code of rules you obey it or you pay the consequences. Learning that lesson would help our society tremendously, and it's a lesson BYU is teaching well in this instance.

so a female can't keep a promise?

keeping a promise has nothing to do gender. If we are talking about "being a man" we might as well throw in bench press, shoe size, highest number of sexual conquests wins.

[ChristKnight]

Don't know if anyone else heard, but on Good Morning America today they said he was dismissed for pre-marital sex.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6175090

[Jeff K.]

Nothing like going over the top eh Frank?

The Honor Code is nothing horrendous and certainly not. Just because you don't believe in the standards doesn't mean they are bad. Those who go to the university understand them. They even accept them.

Real men (and women) live up to their obligations and promises, they also adhere to them until they fulfill their obligations.

People who aren't really mature men (and women) tend to be those who complain about the rules others choose to live by (and I emphasize the word "choose").

It has everything to do with the BYU Honor Code, or rather our interaction with the honor code. If you have a choice, then live up to the promises you made with your choice. I applaud the individual's response when he erred, he did indeed "man up" and understood that his choices were his alone to make.

The irony is how someone who "dissents" and I presume imagines himself a dissenter of principle, can believe that not adhering to principles one chooses to accept is valid.

[Gohan]

so a female can't keep a promise?

Holy semantics! 'Real' man or woman. And 'real' in this case means something along the lines of honorable or someone to look up to. And not because of the reasons you described.

@ChristKnight:

Yeah, I'd heard that too. Stinks. Especially that the news agencies have decided to broadcast it, I just hope Brandon and his family are able to deal with all the attention all right.

[Jason]

so a female can't keep a promise?

[sarcasm]Yes, that's totally what I was saying.[/sarcasm]

[bluebell]

in what way? what is being "a man" according to the Church?

A male with hair past their collar isn't "a man"?

A male who lets a female us his bathroom isn't "a man"?

A male who does not go to Church isn't "a man"?

honesty isn't about chromosomes.

accepting consequences is not about chromosomes.

Why don't you listen to the video link and see if you can figure out the answer to these questions yourself. I was merely quoting the non-LDS commentator who was speaking specifically about the male athelete in question.

[ChristKnight]

@ChristKnight:

Yeah, I'd heard that too. Stinks. Especially that the news agencies have decided to broadcast it, I just hope Brandon and his family are able to deal with all the attention all right.

Yeah, just heard it on the local news too (I live in the NYC area). I hope for the best for Brandon and his family.

[frankenstein]

Why don't you listen to the video link and see if you can figure out the answer to these questions yourself. I was merely quoting the non-LDS commentator who was speaking specifically about the male athelete in question.

I did, listen to it, and I posted more of the quote, I also posted the correct wording, you used "real man" which is incorrect.

gender, or "maniless" has nothing to do with hair length, who enters your living quarters, if you go to Church, ect. There is definable "being a man" its just a silly term designed to insult a person. Here are some lyrics from a song "can't be man cause he doesn't smoke the same cigerrates as me"

Now, as Gohan correctly pointed out, good character is accepting the consequences for ones action, good character is being honest, but to bring in some lame gender, which conveys nothing, term is just nonsensical.

[sjdawg]

I love that BYU has a whole department dedicated to investigating Honor Code violations and seems to encourage students to turn in violators.

[bluebell]

I did, listen to it, and I posted more of the quote, I also posted the correct wording, you used "real man" which is incorrect.

gender, or "maniless" has nothing to do with hair length, who enters your living quarters, if you go to Church, ect. There is definable "being a man" its just a silly term designed to insult a person. Here are some lyrics from a song "can't be man cause he doesn't smoke the same cigerrates as me"

Now, as Gohan correctly pointed out, good character is accepting the consequences for ones action, good character is being honest, but to bring in some lame gender, which conveys nothing, term is just nonsensical.

I think you are being absurd so i guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this and leave it at that.

[bluebell]

I love that BYU has a whole department dedicated to investigating Honor Code violations and seems to encourage students to turn in violators.

Unlike most colleges, they do seem to take the honor code very seriously. I love that as well.

[sjdawg]

There are just some ridiculous items in the honor code. Much of it I appreciate. Some of it is absurd. What a waste of a Dr's time signing forms for "beard exceptions"

What is the process for obtaining a beard exception for medical reasons?

A student who wishes to obtain a beard exception must visit a BYU Student Health Center doctor by appointment (422.5156). The doctor will fax his recommendation. The student then needs to come to the Honor Code Office to fill out some paperwork and receive the letter allowing the growth of the beard, if approved. If a yearly beard exception is granted, a new Student ID will be issued after the beard has been fully grown, and must be renewed every year by repeating the process.

If a request is granted for a temporary or more permanent beard exception the student will be notified by the Honor Code Office; at which time the student will come into the office to complete the necessary paperwork. After completion of this process the student may then grow a full beard according the guidelines given.

If a request is granted for a temporary or more permanent beard exception the student will be notified by the Honor Code Office; at which time the student will come into the office to complete the necessary paperwork. After completion of this process the student may then grow a full beard according the guidelines given.

[Jeff K.]

Its a little silly when people presume that you have a university the size of a small city put together steps that clearly articulate processes in which exceptions can be exercized. One has to be clear so there won't be a large number of recurring questions. It seems silly, but imagine if you have a rather vague exception rule, and it impact on any given semester approximately 10% of the students, new students, students who's situation has changed and so on. If the process is unclear, that could be 5,000+ a semester of people coming to one office and seeking an exception.

Such procedures are fixed rules put in place to handle exceptions. That is a very tall order.

When we see the rule or procedure we often look at it from the perspective of "we ourselves" or our ward handling something. Universities are a different animal. I grouse about procedures all the time and in most universities you have much of the same for things that are even more innocuous. But ever since we left the tribal basis of our civilization and began putting together something an organization of note, we have had processes in place that don't always make sense, but are there to ensure our the least amount of human supervision in order to allow people to use their talents elsewhere. Oh and since the beginning of time there have been people like me complaining about the DMVesque speed by which things must be done.

[Amulek]

I did, listen to it, and I posted more of the quote, I also posted the correct wording, you [bluebell] used "real man" which is incorrect.

Talk about picking a nit. I listened to the clip and read bluebell

[Calm]

Here

[frankenstein]

Also, fun fact. The bathroom rule is actually subject to the complex you're in, and where the bathroom's located in the apartment. Least from what our complex here in Rexburg told us.

another fun fact, actually two fun facts,

first, don't believe everything someone tells you, even if they are your landlord/complex manager.

second, always ask "where is it written and show it to me"; especially if they are your landlord/complex manager.

From the Standard contract:

The use of bathroom areas by members of the opposite sex is not appropriate unless emergency or civility dictate otherwise and then only if the safety, privacy, and sensitivity of other residents are not jeopardized.

so its not the decision of the Complex or the Management of the Complex and location of the bathroom is not a factor. It is the decision of the adults involved, that is the adult who lives in the apartment and is playing host, and the adult who requests to use the facilities. Civility, would almost always dictate the request be answered in the affirmative. As for safety, privacy, and sensitivity, just make sure the bathroom is clear and no one is running around in their underclothes.

-----------------------

to all, yes, I understand it is an idiom, it is a silly idiom which does not convey much. "Real Men Love Jesus", "Real men ride hogs", "Real Men smoke cigars", "Real Men ride scooters", "Real men wear pink"

as for the honor code, it helps one to understand the finality of a contract and the severity of a contract

[Calm]

to all, yes, I understand it is an idiom, it is a silly idiom which does not convey much.

I find it refreshing. I like their rules. I like the fact that when most programs on their level will sell their soul - and are selling their soul - to win games, they