BYU Athletics v. Honor Code

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

In Your Opinion they are excessive. I and countless thousands of other BYU attendees knew, agreed to, and followed the Honor Code of BYU. I see no reason the diminish the severity of the consequences for him, or any other person.

As a side note: Basketball players are held in high esteem at most schools including BYU. There certainly are perquisites for any member of the team. For "Star" players there are added goodies. These come with added responsibility to be a positive role model not only for the school(BYU), but an example of what it means to be in an LDS community. They are also to positive role models for the world in general.

Think how it would look to the world if BYU were to change the rules just for one(a few) that would not follow the rules that apply to everyone else.

[Garden Girl]

GG:

It was still true for me when I attended in the mid 1970's, after a stint in the Air Force. You're just a slightly older fogie than I am.

GG

[Sleeper Cell]

TSS, I know all about rules. That was not my point.

I did not say, suggest, hint, or imply that they should not have to follow the rules.

I stated without equivocation or ambiguity that in my opinion, the punishment imposed for the infraction was excessive.

Which is just another way of saying that in your opinion, the infraction was not very serious.

[Jason]

As a side note: Basketball players are held in high esteem at most schools including BYU. There certainly are perquisites for any member of the team. For "Star" players there are added goodies. These come with added responsibility to be a positive role model not only for the school(BYU), but an example of what it means to be in an LDS community. They are also to positive role models for the world in general.

This is the real problem. Why are basketball players held in high esteem and seen as positive role models? Does athletic talent have a direct correlation with moral capacity?

[Jeff K.]

Basketball players are held in high esteem because society puts them there. Just as they put soldiers there, and others. Sometimes it makes sense, othertimes it doesn't. I believe with sports it is specifically because of the hellenistic section of our societal roots. We identify with our city state athletes if you will. We overlook the fact they are flawed role models at best and compartmentalize skill from the individual, much as the hellenes did Achillies (who was excellent in battle, but a complete and utter self centered jerk otherwise - sounds familiar with our modern sports figures eh?).

[Kenngo1969]

Real men and real women make also mistakes.

The only question here is whether the punishment fit the crime. I think that if the concern is that he stay on the correct spiritual path, then he needs to work out his issues with his bishop. I think the draconian punishment meted out here is driven more by a desire to preserve the reputation of the school, than out of concern for his spirituality. (Emphasis added).

You think that organizations acting to protect their reputations somehow is an illegitimate concern? Why? If you were to violate the ethics of your profession, you might run the risk of being subjected to a punishment which some might find draconian (disbarment, say, when arguably a fine, a suspension, a private reprimand, or a public reprimand might have sufficed). At least part of the reason for that punishment might be so that the organization that granted you a license (not to mention the profession in general) could uphold its reputation. If one doesn't violate the rules, one doesn't have to worry about whether punishment is draconian or arbitrary (or whether an organization is acting "simply to protect its reputation"), does one?

[Kenngo1969]

He shoulda signed with Stew.

No question.

As much as I'd hate to see Davies leave BYU, maybe he will sign with Coach Morrill. One never knows, and one can always hope. (WAC vs. WCC ... might be a step up, as much as I hate to say it).

[Kenngo1969]

I never attended the school and never would, but the so-called "honor code" confuses me. I don't understand why the school forces missionary-level rules on its students ...

You mean, I have to be with a companion 24/7 if I want to go to BYU? Well, OK ... as long as she's reasonably good-looking and agrees to marry me!

[Kenngo1969]

And in the "Rich-With-[No-Doubt-Unintended]-Irony" Department, we now have players who never even bothered to go to college presuming to tell colleges how to run their athletic programs. (Scroll down to 3:50 p.m. on March 4.) What's next? Is Mr. Stoudamire going to be the new Poster Boy for the NBA's "Stay-in-School" Campaign? (At the rate the NBA is going, drafting younger and younger players, eventually we'll have fifth graders making the rounds at colleges encouraging people to finish their degrees.

"But Ken," you say, "Don't you see the 24-point type quasi-apology at the top of the page? Why are you asking me to ignore that in favor of scrolling down to read an earlier comment?" Color me unimpressed with the fancy footwork exhibited by Mr. Stoudamire's backpedaling. Someone on the Knicks' PR Staff said, "Hey, Amare', you're entitled to your opinion and we won't ask you to change it, but for the sake of the team, its image, and your image, we need you to at least issue a pro forma, mealy-mouthed, quasi-apology; you know, that you're sorry IF you offended anyone, yada-yada ..."

"Respect BYU"? "BYU has a great athletic program"? Please! You'd never even heard of BYU before this happened!

[Jaybear]

You think that organizations acting to protect their reputations somehow is an illegitimate concern? Why?

Illegitimate, no. Worthy of criticism, absolutely.

This is my subjective opinion, which I know is not shared by other her. The difference here is that I place the interest of the 19 year old athlete in higher regard than the reputation of BYU. Here, the goal for many is to defend "the Church". BYU is an extension of that church.

BYU punished Davies, not for his benefit, but to protect its own reputation.

If you can show me where a BYU athlete was kicked off the team for having sex, not leading to pregnancy, which makes it public, then I will concede that its not about BYU's reputation. Even easier, show me where player was kicked off the team for drinking alcohol, where the police were involved.

It seems to me that drinking and having sex, only warrants suspension when it leads to the potential of public embarassment of BYU.

If one doesn't violate the rules, one doesn't have to worry about whether punishment is draconian or arbitrary (or whether an organization is acting "simply to protect its reputation"), does one?

One can have empathy for those who are punished unjustly.

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

So you'd sell your inheritance for a mess of pottage?

[Jason]

This is my subjective opinion, which I know is not shared by other her. The difference here is that I place the interest of the 19 year old athlete in higher regard than the reputation of BYU. Here, the goal for many is to defend "the Church". BYU is an extension of that church.

BYU punished Davies, not for his benefit, but to protect its own reputation.

Surely teaching Mr. Davies that there are consequences for breaking your word, and that being a star athlete doesn't mitigate them, is in his best interest.

[Jeff K.]

Jaybear looks upon any penalty from the church as self styled "punishment" with no benefit to the receiver. To him the church is BYU, a legitimate argument in most cases. But BYU isn't protecting itself so much as it is providing a methodology for repentence. One has one's blessings withdrawn. This is a contract known to Mormon's quite well, and one of those blessings is attending BYU (taking the position that BYU is the church). Just as when one commits adultry in church, one's ability with the priesthood suddenly becomes (dare I say) serverely limited. Now does the church do this to protect itself? Or does the church do this to help us to repent and return.

Jaybear who cannot see any spiritual aspect in anything the church does, will of course be blind to any action taken by the church to be of any spiritual nature. If the church is BYU as Jaybear holds, then it is right that BYU disfellowship (off the team if you will) or even excommunicate (out of BYU) for actions that are considered serious sins in God's eyes. Why should the church be different at BYU if the church is BYU as Jaybear states?

[Jaybear]

Jaybear looks upon any penalty from the church as self styled "punishment" with no benefit to the receiver. To him the church is BYU, a legitimate argument in most cases. But BYU isn't protecting itself so much as it is providing a methodology for repentence. One has one's blessings withdrawn. This is a contract known to Mormon's quite well, and one of those blessings is attending BYU (taking the position that BYU is the church). Just as when one commits adultry in church, one's ability with the priesthood suddenly becomes (dare I say) serverely limited. Now does the church do this to protect itself? Or does the church do this to help us to repent and return.

Jaybear who cannot see any spiritual aspect in anything the church does, will of course be blind to any action taken by the church to be of any spiritual nature. If the church is BYU as Jaybear holds, then it is right that BYU disfellowship (off the team if you will) or even excommunicate (out of BYU) for actions that are considered serious sins in God's eyes. Why should the church be different at BYU if the church is BYU as Jaybear states?

Utter nonsense.

I think the punishment is excessive.

I also think the punishment was meted out more to preserve the reputation of BYU, than for the spiritual heath and well being of Mr. Davies.

Period.

If you can't express and articulate your disagreement without engaging in personal attacks, don't bother.

[Amulek]

If you can show me where a BYU athlete was kicked off the team for having sex, not leading to pregnancy, which makes it public, then I will concede that its not about BYU's reputation.

I was listening to ESPN the other day and the announcer was talking about how Glen Kozlowski, who later played for the Chicago Bears, was kicked out of BYU for the same reason. I

[Walden]

There are just some ridiculous items in the honor code. Much of it I appreciate. Some of it is absurd. What a waste of a Dr's time signing forms for "beard exceptions"

What is the process for obtaining a beard exception for medical reasons?

A student who wishes to obtain a beard exception must visit a BYU Student Health Center doctor by appointment (422.5156). The doctor will fax his recommendation. The student then needs to come to the Honor Code Office to fill out some paperwork and receive the letter allowing the growth of the beard, if approved. If a yearly beard exception is granted, a new Student ID will be issued after the beard has been fully grown, and must be renewed every year by repeating the process.

If a request is granted for a temporary or more permanent beard exception the student will be notified by the Honor Code Office; at which time the student will come into the office to complete the necessary paperwork. After completion of this process the student may then grow a full beard according the guidelines given.

If a request is granted for a temporary or more permanent beard exception the student will be notified by the Honor Code Office; at which time the student will come into the office to complete the necessary paperwork. After completion of this process the student may then grow a full beard according the guidelines given.

From the depictions of Christ that I have seen, it appears that he would be in violation of the BYU honor code as well for his long hair and beard. Wow, to think that an LDS school would classify Christ as being in violation of an honor code

For the record, I am an ex LDS member who has no problem with BYU's honor code....then again I didn't attend BYU and thus was never subject to it.

If you don't want to attend a school with a "draconian" code/standard, then feel free to apply elsewhere, there are plenty of choices. If you thought that you could live under this code, and then decided otherwise after attending BYU for awhile, then transfer to another school....students do it all the time.

I'm not sure what all the hoopla is about....he knew the rules, he knew the consequences, he violated the rules and has accepted the consequences.

[Jason]

Sounds like a concession is in order. In fact, it sounds like Kozlowski feels that he learned something from the experience.

[Jason]

From the depictions of Christ that I have seen, it appears that he would be in violation of the BYU honor code as well for his long hair and beard. Wow, to think that an LDS school would classify Christ as being in violation of an honor code

Don't stop there. Why don't you point out that judging from the statues of Brigham Young on campus he wouldn't be able to go to the school named after him?

Oh, I know - because pointing that out would be stupid, seeing as how rational people understand that the current honor code is just that - current, and not to be applied to the societal standards of any other time or place.

[Jaybear]

Sounds like a concession is in order. In fact, it sounds like Kozlowski feels that he learned something from the experience.

What did he say that lead you to that conclusion. And what was it that you think that he thinks he learned?

[Jaybear]

Don't stop there. Why don't you point out that judging from the statues of Brigham Young on campus he wouldn't be able to go to the school named after him?

Oh, I know - because pointing that out would be stupid, seeing as how rational people understand that the current honor code is just that - current, and not to be applied to the societal standards of any other time or place.

I don't have a problem with dress and grooming codes.

But since you profess to be a rational person, what rational purpose is served by not allowing beards and staches.

[Jason]

I don't have a problem with dress and grooming codes.

But since you profess to be a rational person, what rational purpose is served by not allowing beards and staches.

Look at it this way: what rational purpose is served by asking a person not to shop on Sunday?

[Jason]

What did he say that lead you to that conclusion. And what was it that you think that he thinks he learned?

"I wasn't a good example of what you were supposed to be as a BYU student. It's not something I'm proud of, but it was something I was doing and BYU held to its guns and held to its standards and said, 'You can't behave this way. You have to leave.'"

He learned the value of integrity. He is not proud for his lack of it at the time and does think higher of BYU for having it.

Aside from whether he learned something, you still owe one concession.

[Jaybear]

"I wasn't a good example of what you were supposed to be as a BYU student. It's not something I'm proud of, but it was something I was doing and BYU held to its guns and held to its standards and said, 'You can't behave this way. You have to leave.'"

He learned the value of integrity. He is not proud for his lack of it at the time and does think higher of BYU for having it.

Aside from whether he learned something, you still owe one concession.

He didn't say that.

He said he was not proud of his behavior. Whatever it was. Even if he hadn't been caught and suspended, would you expect him to say he was proud of his behavior?

He said nothing about "integrity." Did you not note the part about the school kicking McMahon off the team after his last bowl game. So much for integrity. Thank's Jim. Now get out.

[Jason]

Why am I not surprised that you are looking at the quote in the most negative way possible? Is that the creak of shifting goalposts I hear?

You said - show you a BYU student who was kicked off the team for having sex and you would concede that its not about BYU's reputation.

You've been shown. Concession?

[frankenstein]

Look at it this way: what rational purpose is served by asking a person not to shop on Sunday?

not the same.

One we know is from God. The other we only know is from a business that is owned by Gods Church.