BYU Athletics v. Honor Code

[Jason]

Premarital sex with your girlfriend is a sin of passion. I asked for an example of an athlete being kicked of the team for amounts to a moment of weakness that did not lead to pregnancy. The latter, of course, becomes a PR issue for PR conscience university.

What you describe, Koz "violated just about everything" tells me that he was not kicked for being unable to controll his passion, but for his utter disregard for the honor code. I don't have a problem with BYU kicking off the team a player who has no regard for the moral principles underlying the honor code. They don't belong at BYU.

Though I do think its hypocritical to wait until after the bowl game to address the issue.

*squeak squeak squeak squeak squeak*

(Yes, that's the sound of shifting goalposts)

[Jaybear]

*squeak squeak squeak squeak squeak*

(Yes, that's the sound of shifting goalposts)

I will treat your insinuation that I have "moved the goalpost" as an admission that you actually agree with me. Thank you. I know that much have been very difficult.

Do you now also agree with me that Davies' bishop is in a much better position to deal with Davies sexual sin in a manner consistent with Davies long term spiritual development, than the administrators in the honor code office?

[Jaybear]

Quoted for truth.

It's easy to believe that if no action had been taken against Davies they would be excoriating BYU for having no integrity and not holding him to the honor code.

Right, just because you have no actual evidence that I am a hypocrite, doesn't mean you stop from claiming that I must be a hypocrite in some alternative universe.

[Jeff K.]

I think that people are insincere when they say that the punishment is unreasonable.

They would have complained regardless of what BYU did.

They produce no rational thought process as to what is severe,

they overlook the issue of fairness,

acknowledgement that all were aware of the penalties or issues,

they even overlook the acceptance of those who did transgress.

The only parrotlike repetitiveness is "its too severe". Let us at least be honest and know that these people would have whined, complained, and sought to attack the decisions regardless of what the decision was.

Jaybear you seem to think it is all aobut you, and yet you have not been mentioned beyond your own self accusation. Are you stating the positions listed above are the ones you are advocating?

[Jason]

I will treat your insinuation that I have "moved the goalpost" as an admission that you actually agree with me. Thank you. I know that much have been very difficult.

That wasn't really an insinuation, it was more of an outright statement.

You refuse to admit that someone has met your challenge and are attempting to change the challenge's rules after the fact to avoid making the concession you promised to make if such evidence appeared. You are in fact shifting the goalposts.

Do you now also agree with me that Davies' bishop is in a much better position to deal with Davies sexual sin in a manner consistent with Davies long term spiritual development, than the administrators in the honor code office?

Davies' bishop will deal with his confession and long term spritual development. The honor code office is dealing with his honor code violation. They are actually two seperate areas of stewardship. No doubt they will make efforts to work together to help Mr. Davies.

Right, just because you have no actual evidence that I am a hypocrite, doesn't mean you stop from claiming that I must be a hypocrite in some alternative universe.

My comment concerned critics of BYU in this instance in general, not you specifically. But if you believe the shoe fits...

[Jeff K.]

I will treat your insinuation that I have "moved the goalpost" as an admission that you actually agree with me. Thank you. I know that much have been very difficult.

Do you now also agree with me that Davies' bishop is in a much better position to deal with Davies sexual sin in a manner consistent with Davies long term spiritual development, than the administrators in the honor code office?

Is the emboldened part a sincere belief that you think he agrees with you?

As to Davies Bishop, that is for a the ecclesiastical end, not the academic. Academia by the way places all kinds of rules and restictions upon individuals depending on the nature and culture of the schools. The Bishop is in an excellent position to discuss the process of repentance, while the school is in an excellent position to teach students how to live, beyond merely the athletic and academic, which most schools do as a philosophy.

It is a shame you cannot understand or consistently apply the standards so many schools do.

What would you have done had BYU given Davies a pass? Be honest. Would you have praised BYU? I believe most of us know you well enough to know that will never happen. Though if you have a post from somewhere in the past praising BYU for not enforcing some rule or another, I shall gladly rescind my belief in the matter.

[Walden]

Quoted for truth.

It's easy to believe that if no action had been taken against Davies they would be excoriating BYU for having no integrity and not holding him to the honor code.

Please, we both know that if BYU had not taken a very public action, none of this would have gone public and therefore there would be no "excoriating BYU for having no integrity and not holding him to the honor code."

I am on your side on this, but please do not jump to the typical knee-jerk, "it's us against the world....we are so persecuted" LDS reaction. If BYU had not taken action against Davies, or had taken action such as requiring Davies to go through a repentance process that did not include kicking him off the team, nobody would even know that a violation had happened, and thus nobody would be "excoriating BYU for having no integrity and not holding him to the honor code."

[Jeff K.]

The virulent accusations of "severity" seem to be a shallow echo since the largest critics tend to never balance their statements with even a modicum of praise. I saw nothing from some that stated the standards were praiseworthy, or even a positive aspect in regard to consistency. The knee jerk tends to come from those accusing BYU of some sort of severity in the face of evidence to the contrary, even from those who found themselves in the wrong end of a decision.

If the person who is being penalized, if they themsleves deem it fair, who are these nattering nabobs of negativism which do nothing but natter, and in the end natter not one whit, or at least natter witlessly.

[Walden]

The virulent accusations of "severity" seem to be a shallow echo since the largest critics tend to never balance their statements with even a modicum of praise. I saw nothing from some that stated the standards were praiseworthy, or even a positive aspect in regard to consistency. The knee jerk tends to come from those accusing BYU of some sort of severity in the face of evidence to the contrary, even from those who found themselves in the wrong end of a decision.

If the person who is being penalized, if they themsleves deem it fair, who are these nattering nabobs of negativism which do nothing but natter, and in the end natter not one whit, or at least natter witlessly.

I am very criticial of the LDS church, but if you look at any of my posts on this matter (in this thread or another thread that was circulating regarding this topic) you will see that I have indeed supported BYU and their actions on this matter. In fact, in one thread I even praised BYU for taking action in an age when college athletes who are caught performing much more offensive actions (possession of guns or drugs, hitting their girlfriends, etc.) are maybe suspended for one game, if that. BYU's stance is rather refereshing in an age where anything goes with regard to personal conduct, as long as you average 16 points, 8 rebounds a night.

There are people prone to knee-jerk reactions on both sides of the LDS divide; I just called out that particular post in my previous comment becasue it made no sense....if BYU had not made a very public stand, then nobody would be aware of what had happened, and thus nobody would be "excoriating BYU for having no integrity and not holding him to the honor code."

Apologists have enough ground to cover without having to create false "persecution" scenarios.

[Jason]

Please, we both know that if BYU had not taken a very public action, none of this would have gone public and therefore there would be no "excoriating BYU for having no integrity and not holding him to the honor code."

True, but if Davies then waited until he was out of college and then went public with a "I got away with breaking the code, they knew about it, and they did nothing because I was a star athlete" story you can bet the critics would be sharpening their knives.

[Jeff K.]

Forget the reputation of the school. Think of the message that would send to Davies himself, that if you are important enough you don't need to worry about the rules. I think he is lucky to be in a school that does not send that message.

[Jeff K.]

I am very criticial of the LDS church, but if you look at any of my posts on this matter (in this thread or another thread that was circulating regarding this topic) you will see that I have indeed supported BYU and their actions on this matter. In fact, in one thread I even praised BYU for taking action in an age when college athletes who are caught performing much more offensive actions (possession of guns or drugs, hitting their girlfriends, etc.) are maybe suspended for one game, if that. BYU's stance is rather refereshing in an age where anything goes with regard to personal conduct, as long as you average 16 points, 8 rebounds a night.

There are people prone to knee-jerk reactions on both sides of the LDS divide; I just called out that particular post in my previous comment becasue it made no sense....if BYU had not made a very public stand, then nobody would be aware of what had happened, and thus nobody would be "excoriating BYU for having no integrity and not holding him to the honor code."

Apologists have enough ground to cover without having to create false "persecution" scenarios.

Generally BYU does not make it public. But in the case of Davies it was impossible to keep it private. The team was on the championship track, and Davies was an important part of it. BYU itself never disclosed why Davies was suspended and to this day has neither confirmed nor denied it because they do treat this as a private issue.

The persecution comes specifically from those who have provided no real reason beyond "its too severe" and yet, ignore the preponderance of the evidence that indicates otherwise including the people paying the penalties themselves. The judge in the most harsh way possible what everyone including the perpetrators admist was a fair and just judgement. Even those in the past who have also been penalized and no longer have to be concerned about BYU's reaction. All this plays to the point that some simply will not accept BYU.

[Amulek]

Premarital sex with your girlfriend is a sin of passion. I asked for an example of an athlete being kicked of the team for amounts to a moment of weakness that did not lead to pregnancy.

Again, that is exactly what I heard reported on ESPN regarding Koz. Technically, they didn

[krose]

Though I do think its hypocritical to wait until after the bowl game to address the issue.

Yeah, as consistently strict as they have been recently, they don't have a lot to brag about in that case.

As McMahon put it in an interview, school officials approached him (and the freshman Kozlowski) after his last college bowl game and said it had "just come to their attention" (suuure) that he had been partying and flouting the HC rules. He knew that they knew all along and looked the other way until he finished his eligibility. At that point they suspended him and Koz for a semester. Glen returned after a year, but Jim was happy to experience what he called his "favorite part" of his time in Provo... seeing it in his rearview mirror.

[Jason]

Yeah, as consistently strict as they have been recently, they don't have a lot to brag about in that case.

As McMahon put it in an interview, school officials approached him (and the freshman Kozlowski) after his last college bowl game and said it had "just come to their attention" (suuure) that he had been partying and flouting the HC rules. He knew that they knew all along and looked the other way until he finished his eligibility. At that point they suspended him and Koz for a semester. Glen returned after a year, but Jim was happy to experience what he called his "favorite part" of his time in Provo... seeing it in his rearview mirror.

Well what do you know - a critic of BYU having not applied the honor code severely enough. Didn't someone predict that somewhere on this thread?

[Jaybear]

Well what do you know - a critic of BYU having not applied the honor code severely enough. Didn't someone predict that somewhere on this thread?

You read that wrong. The criticism was the timing of the action, not the lack of severity. McMahon was kicked out of school. Since they can't fine, or put him in jail, that is about as severe a penalty that they can impose.

But good luck with your quest.

[krose]

Well what do you know - a critic of BYU having not applied the honor code severely enough. Didn't someone predict that somewhere on this thread?

Not really. You will notice that I said they have been consistent the last couple of years, which was not the case 20-30 years ago (before the advent of fan blogs, YouTube, Facebook, phone cams, etc.).

But even if I were criticizing from both directions (I wasn't), I refer you to the following disclaimer:

As a fan I reserve the absolute right to criticize, mock, jeer, and thrill in schadenfreude regarding anything and everything done by or at a rival athletic program, up to and including rooting for their ultimate demise.

(And now I'm off to root for TCU to pull off the upset.)

[Jeff K.]

You read that wrong. The criticism was the timing of the action, not the lack of severity. McMahon was kicked out of school. Since they can't fine, or put him in jail, that is about as severe a penalty that they can impose.

But good luck with your quest.

More to the counter point. No evidence that it did not come to light earlier. It presumes soemthing with no evidence. Which speaks more to the prejudice of the poster more than the evidence presented.

[Kenngo1969]

I have not undertaken an exhaustive search of the Board or of recent contributions to this thread. Apologies if someone has already posted this or alluded to it, but I think it adds a worthwhile voice to the discussion..

[blueadept]

I have not undertaken an exhaustive search of the Board or of recent contributions to this thread. Apologies if someone has already posted this or alluded to it, but I think it adds a worthwhile voice to the discussion..

Thanks for sharing... The only problem I had with the article is how does the story 'lift college athletics up?' It's not like other programs are going to incorporate honor codes into their athletic programs. That's not what the present athletes at the college level signed up for.

Kudos for BYU in handling this matter in a reasonable fashion.

[Jeff K.]

It may show other programs that they do not need to give up their morals to be competitive.

[blueadept]

It may show other programs that they do not need to give up their morals to be competitive.

I would say that you have more faith than I that this story could have a more positive impact on other programs. At least this is essentially a dead story that if BYU does lose today, no one should be looking at his suspension as a factor in it. There's no dishonor in losing in the Sweet 16 especially to a higher ranked opponent.

[Jeff K.]

Yes, I know, I sometimes kick myself for not being more realistic about it.

[Walden]

I would say that you have more faith than I that this story could have a more positive impact on other programs. At least this is essentially a dead story that if BYU does lose today, no one should be looking at his suspension as a factor in it. There's no dishonor in losing in the Sweet 16 especially to a higher ranked opponent.

I highly doubt that this issue will have an affect on the manner in which other colleges deal with athletes who step out of line.

But I do have to say that when before I would chuckle at the sky-is-falling, end of the world, last days/doomsday predictions that seem to swirl around this board every time there is a natural disaster or "rumor of war".....I think that the fact that BYU has made it to the Sweet 16 is more a sign of the apocalypse than anything else I have seen

[Garden Girl]

What an exciting game... I was having the vapors... IMO the team played well, even though Jimmer wasn't "on" as usual -- even though he still made 32 points! -- and there was that one long shot of about 30 feet that the commentator said he shot from Provo that showed he was still Jimmer no matter how they guarded him...

Yes, I wish BYU had won, but they played well, and represented the team, the school, and the Church in good stead. To end the game tied, then lose in overtime was a disappointment, but nothing to be ashamed of... Love the Cougars!

GG