Mormon Myopia

[jadams_4242]

The belief that God micromanages our lives for our benefit can lead in some instances to a form of narcissism I call Mormon Myopia.

(Although this doubtless exists in other faiths, I am primarily aware of it through my membership in the LDS Church.)

It usually assumes a benign form such as God helping find lost car keys.

But when we think that God harms others in order to aid us or in some way give us what we need, it takes a malignant turn.

Example:

A former bishop was teaching our high priest group last Sunday, and lamented about how many funerals he had to conduct during his tenure.

He said the previous bishop had conducted zero funerals, but that as soon as he was called to be the new bishop, a ward member passed away. He went on to say that he had to conduct no less than twenty-eight funerals while he was bishop. (Funerals were evidently his least favorite part of the calling.)

All of this is just factual information. It was the conclusion he drew that was interesting.

Referring to the previous bishop and the relative number of funerals each had to conduct, our teacher said, "He got what he needed. I got what I needed."

It apparently never crossed his mind to wonder if the dead people or their families were getting what they needed.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

if its someones time; might as well make the best of it uh?

[nicolasconnault]

The correlation I noticed was that the missionaries with the most conversion success were the ones who were the most likable, with the most outgoing personalities. Some were rule followers, but many were not.

The most successful missionaries on my mission were not the ones who baptised the most, but those who produced the greatest change for good in everyone they interacted with. These missionaries were obedient, but they were not obsessed with the rules. They were passionate about leading people to Christ. Some were not outgoing.

[Walden]

In a world in which sociology, psychology, and statistics predict most behavior, how do you see the relative percentage of circumstance on the one hand, set over against chance and coincidence? In other words, do atheists share a common belief in the likelihood of accidence on the one hand, and of predictability on the other, or are they just as unsure and indecisive about the nature of the mix as anyone else? Can atheists be myopic?

In such a world, is it even possible to carry on a coherent and meaningful discussion about the true nature of reality? Is sheer, unsupported opinion our only basis of knowledge? Is that the dilemma of our circular and vicious cycle epistemology? Is knowledge even possible? Was David Hume right about our limitations?

Interesting questions......and yes, atheists can be myopic as well. There are many here who would argue that I am an example of such a thing.

Regarding the central point of your post (at least as I understand it), I don't know that there is a way to carry on a "coherent and meaningful discussion about the true nature of reality." In the end, we are just arguing for our own view of reality, independent of "true reality" itself. In my opinion, we are prisoners of our own experience, beliefs, persuasions, and bias. Thus, "truth" becomes a matter of perception.

This question of reality has always intrigued me and led to my own interest in the practices of buddhism. I can do without the reincarnation aspect of buddhism, but the practice of meditation is directly related to this dilemna of perception and reality. The ultimate goal of meditation is to release the practicioner from all of his biases, perceptions, discriminations, etc. in an attempt to arrive at the ultimate truth, the ultimate reality.

[consiglieri]

Truman G. Madsen once framed the issue as a God who answers prayers to find eye-glasses, but ignores prayers to restore eyesight.

In the interests of full disclosure, I would be remiss in not sharing a strange experience I had about ten-years ago with a cat, of all things.

I have never had such an experience before or since, and heaven knows I have had many other prayers I would rather God had answered, but here's what happened.

Our family had a sweet cat we called "Mouser" because she was a grey tabby with stripes that formed a capital "M" on her forehead. Anyway, she had taken extremely ill and before we could get her to the vet, she disappeared.

Fearing she had gone off somewhere to die, my wife and all the kids were scouring the outdoors around the house; everywhere they could think to look.

When I got home, the situation was on high alert.

At my family's request, I walked out on the front door step, folded my arms and prayed for help to find Mouser.

Next is the part that is hard to describe. I would not want to say my body was possessed or anything, but I found myself walking down the front steps and down the driveway to the left to the garage. I walked into the garage and over to a tall open cardboard box. Only when I was right next to the box could I look down at an angle so as to see Mouser curled up at the bottom.

She was very ill, and we took her to the vet where she recovered.

As I say, I have had many other prayers more important to me than finding a cat, but it was nevertheless one of the strangest experiences I have ever had. I had no idea where Mouser was, and yet I could not have found her in a more direct manner if I had.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Duncan]

Truman G. Madsen once framed the issue as a God who answers prayers to find eye-glasses, but ignores prayers to restore eyesight.

In the interests of full disclosure, I would be remiss in not sharing a strange experience I had about ten-years ago with a cat, of all things.

I have never had such an experience before or since, and heaven knows I have had many other prayers I would rather God had answered, but here's what happened.

Our family had a sweet cat we called "Mouser" because she was a grey tabby with stripes that formed a capital "M" on her forehead. Anyway, she had taken extremely ill and before we could get her to the vet, she disappeared.

Fearing she had gone off somewhere to die, my wife and all the kids were scouring the outdoors around the house; everywhere they could think to look.

When I got home, the situation was on high alert.

At my family's request, I walked out on the front door step, folded my arms and prayed for help to find Mouser.

Next is the part that is hard to describe. I would not want to say my body was possessed or anything, but I found myself walking down the front steps and down the driveway to the left to the garage. I walked into the garage and over to a tall open cardboard box. Only when I was right next to the box could I look down at an angle so as to see Mouser curled up at the bottom.

She was very ill, and we took her to the vet where she recovered.

As I say, I have had many other prayers more important to me than finding a cat, but it was nevertheless one of the strangest experiences I have ever had. I had no idea where Mouser was, and yet I could not have found her in a more direct manner if I had.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

As I recall Truman Madsen saying that he didn't know why God would inspire someone to do something yet seemingly ignore other more imporant requests, as in your case of finding glasses over restoring eyesight.

[Deborah]

Truman G. Madsen once framed the issue as a God who answers prayers to find eye-glasses, but ignores prayers to restore eyesight.

But I wonder if it's sometimes in the little things that we can most see the hand of God. In other words if God cares enough to answer our prayers about such little things (which btw really are important at the time) then he must really care about us. We usually can deal with the big things for some reason if we know that God is really there and cares. This has certainly been my experience, and yes I've been one with the lost keys that were found.

[Walden]

But I wonder if it's sometimes in the little things that we can most see the hand of God. In other words if God cares enough to answer our prayers about such little things (which btw really are important at the time) then he must really care about us. We usually can deal with the big things for some reason if we know that God is really there and cares. This has certainly been my experience, and yes I've been one with the lost keys that were found.

How do you reconcile your belief that "God cares enough to answer our prayers about such little things (which btw really are important at the time)," but often fails to answer prayers about the really big, important things? If he cares enough to answer prayers about the little things, does he not care enough to answer prayers about the big things?

Also, you state that "we usually can deal with the big things for some reason if we know that God is really there and cares." As you state, "this has certainly been my experience," in my own experience, I have found that I deal better with the "big things" precisely because I don't believe in god.

[Deborah]

If he cares enough to answer prayers about the little things, does he not care enough to answer prayers about the big things?

You're assuming because the answer isn't what you want that he doesn't answer. The answer comes in other ways, whether it's to show us our own strength, give us the blessing of seeing the charity of others or in helping us overcome great trials to be an example to others. Of course you will pooh-pooh all this but the some of the strongest, most faithful people I know are ones who have faced the greatest trials because they have seen God's power in their lives.

[Jeff K.]

It is the small things that we generally don't notice in which the Lord may have the biggest miracles happen. I would not call it micromanaging anymore than a small note from your wife telling you she loves you is micromanaging. It fortifies us, comforts us, and strengthens us.

[TAO]

The belief that God micromanages our lives for our benefit can lead in some instances to a form of narcissism I call Mormon Myopia.

It can. We are not the entire image, that we aren't. But I think he does focus on everyone, personally. I think he offers spiritual help to each and every human being on earth, sometimes in obscure ways, but help nonetheless. =)

(Although this doubtless exists in other faiths, I am primarily aware of it through my membership in the LDS Church.)

It usually assumes a benign form such as God helping find lost car keys.

He can help us find car keys. What is wisdom to him, so is it his, that it is.

But when we think that God harms others in order to aid us or in some way give us what we need, it takes a malignant turn.

It does. From what I have experienced... he doesn't harm others for our benefit. What he does do is he controls the situation to a degree to allow us to learn from certain situations. Just as he controls the situation around others to lead them to have to make a choice that could effect their life (it's up to them to make it for the better or the worse). But no, God doesn't malignantly hurt others to help you - he tries to be one everyone's side as much as they will let him =D. He's an awesome guy!

Example:

A former bishop was teaching our high priest group last Sunday, and lamented about how many funerals he had to conduct during his tenure.

He said the previous bishop had conducted zero funerals, but that as soon as he was called to be the new bishop, a ward member passed away. He went on to say that he had to conduct no less than twenty-eight funerals while he was bishop. (Funerals were evidently his least favorite part of the calling.)

All of this is just factual information. It was the conclusion he drew that was interesting.

Referring to the previous bishop and the relative number of funerals each had to conduct, our teacher said, "He got what he needed. I got what I needed."

It apparently never crossed his mind to wonder if the dead people or their families were getting what they needed.

Actually, all the people involved got what they needed, indeed they did. Those who died got called home to a God who loves them. Their families went through trials they needed to, and learned lessons which would help them in the future. So did the bishops. Whatever is wisdom in God, so he puts into place, giving what is just according to him. And as that one verse in the BoM says, it is our job to 'becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.' (Mosiah 3:19). God gives us the trials we need, I am sure of it - and I am going to thank him, I think, the moment I get to meet him and shake his hand. =)

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Best Wishes,

TAO

[Walden]

You're assuming because the answer isn't what you want that he doesn't answer. The answer comes in other ways, whether it's to show us our own strength, give us the blessing of seeing the charity of others or in helping us overcome great trials to be an example to others. Of course you will pooh-pooh all this but the some of the strongest, most faithful people I know are ones who have faced the greatest trials because they have seen God's power in their lives.

Despite your assumption, I don't "pooh-pooh" this way of thinking. In fact, it is exactly what I anticipate from believers, as evidenced in my original post on this topic when I stated that "I've always found this type of response among believers to be fascinating. It tends to always put god in a "no lose" situation. If he sends you trials, it is because you needed to learn from them. If he sends you blessings, well, it's because you deserved it."

Ultimately, I guess that I fail to comprehend the belief that god will help you find your car keys, but at the same time will not spare the life of, say, a starving child in Africa who's mother begs and pleads for a miracle from god, yet doesn't receive it. Those who think that miracle comes in the form of losing your child, well, I do commend that level of faith, I just don't understand how one rationalizes that belief. The mother may very well receive the blessing of finding "[her] own strength....seeing the charity of others or in helping [her] overcome great trials to be an example to others," but I have no doubt that she would give that all up for the chance to hold her child just one more time. And though believers will argue that the mother and child will be reunited at some point, I cannot believe in a god who condones so much pain and excruciating suffering in an attempt to "show us our own strength, give us the blessing of seeing the charity of others or in helping us overcome great trials to be an example to others."

[birdgirl]

Truman G. Madsen once framed the issue as a God who answers prayers to find eye-glasses, but ignores prayers to restore eyesight.

A friend of mine has an adorable Mormon Mommy Blog. Recently she wrote about how she was frustrated with her two year old who was mostly potty trained except when it came to #2. So she prayed and begged and then one day she could tell he needed to go so she made him sit on the toilet and he did it!!! (fruit snacks were shared, toilets were flushed, tears of joy were shed) So she goes on about how the Lord Almighty helped her get her kid to take a dump in the toilet but not until she HUMBLED herself enough. I wanted to respond (but didn't):

1. Wow! It is amazing that atheists are able to potty train their kids without divine intervention! They should get more credit for doing it on their own.

2. Seems rather arrogant, actually, to suggest that Heavenly Father takes and active interest in your kid's bowel movements.

3. So humility is the key? Someone ought to tell the 12 year old girl being sold as a sex slave in Indonesia that she needs to be more humble before He will help her.

krose wrote:

The correlation I noticed was that the missionaries with the most conversion success were the ones who were the most likable, with the most outgoing personalities. Some were rule followers, but many were not.

Same here.

I served in a lovely European country with few members despite decades of missionary effort. I learned later that our mission president told the Elders they wouldn't have the spirit- or success- if they masturbated or were disobedient in the slightest way (including eating enough fruits and vegetables). The sisters got the obedience lecture minus any explicit warnings.

A guy from my mission complained about how his buddy in South America baptized people every week. He joked: They must send ALL the masturbators to Europe!

[BCSpace]

And then no one could ever explain why the "lazy aposate" missionaries had all the baptisms...

They weren't so uptight and therefore could relate better with others. However, I never saw any truly lazy and/or apostate missionaries have any success at all.

[volgadon]

You're assuming because the answer isn't what you want that he doesn't answer. The answer comes in other ways, whether it's to show us our own strength, give us the blessing of seeing the charity of others or in helping us overcome great trials to be an example to others. Of course you will pooh-pooh all this but the some of the strongest, most faithful people I know are ones who have faced the greatest trials because they have seen God's power in their lives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA0_bSZAfLg

[volgadon]

The correlation I noticed was that the missionaries with the most conversion success were the ones who were the most likable, with the most outgoing personalities. Some were rule followers, but many were not.

On my mission some of the most outgoing, warm and caring individuals, whom everyone instantly loved, had hardly any success, numbers-wise. So I'm not sure it is really as simple as outgoing = baptisers.

[Daniel Peterson]

This seems related to what I was constantly told as a missionary, which is that we would not be successful at converting people if we were not following all the mission rules.

In effect, the people would be deprived of the blessings that would otherwise be theirs as Mormons, because we were listening to pop music on P-Day instead of just the approved MoTab. It was really about us.

Do you really find that so totally incredible?

Let's take a more stark example.

You might be successful at converting people if you try to convert people.

If, however, instead of knocking on doors or following up on referrals or doing street contacting or teaching investigators, you sleep in and then loll around your apartment and then go to bed, the people who might have accepted the Gospel will be deprived of the blessings that would otherwise have been theirs as Mormons, at least for some greater or lesser length of time

In that case, it will really have been about you.

Or do you think that there would actually be somebody else who was responsible?

[Jeff K.]

I learned during my mission to worry less about the baptism success of what I was doing and think more about the people I was teaching. It made it a much richer mission. Part of that "thinking about the people" was derived in part with listening to music that was uplifting, reading the scriptures more carefully really really trying to follow the dictates of both spirit and conscience. I don't think I was much more successful during the latter part of my mission than I was at the beginning, at least in baptisms. But those I taught knew I loved them and the mission became a pleasant spiritual and thoughtful experience. In part it was because I stopped sneaking a listen to pop songs, and because my focus was more on what I was doing and what I was sacrificing for and less on what I wanted to do for fun (turned out I had more fun keeping the rules than not). Mission rules are there for a reason, they seem to have worked well for me..... once I tried to live up to them.

[Deborah]

That is great Volgadon. Very funny.

[Deborah]

Ultimately, I guess that I fail to comprehend the belief that god will help you find your car keys, but at the same time will not spare the life of, say, a starving child in Africa who's mother begs and pleads for a miracle from god, yet doesn't receive it.

Do you really think the example of a starving child in Africa is valid. In the first place it is unlikely that a starving people in such a nation even believe in God. In such a circumstance their fate is accepted. The evil leaders who enable such circumstances will be accountable.

What such things do is awaken the compassion of others to go to the aid of such tragedy. No one, not even in Heaven can look on such sorrow without weeping. But agency, even of those who bring about such evil, must be allowed.

I think that is why God will often answer the prayers of such little things by sending us those gentle messages, but helps us go through the big things by giving us strength. Part of our agency was choosing to come here with all of the sorrows and tragedies that will befall of us. How is the young athlete helped to become stronger if when practice gets hard his coach tells him to take it easy and just go lie down, he'll do the work for him. The good coach pushes his players to keep going beyond the mark. God is our coach and pushes us to go beyond what we thought we could endure. When we are done, we like the athlete, have become the strong, expert player that God knew we could become.

[emeliza]

Okay my thoughts are a bit rambling on all this. This is something I have thought about on and off thru the years. I will fully admit I have felt divine intervention in some areas of my life that are similar to the lost keys or cat situation. I still feel thankful for that divine intervention. I still feel it was divine intervention. Oddly enough, most of my situation included prayer with small children watching and the answer happened with them there.

I have also many times had no answer or seemingly no answer to issues that were very critical and important vs the finding keys which was helpful, but not critical.

I also know that I tend to sometimes use little cliches about how God has intervined in areas where I think He has that probably tick off people who are waiting for something far more important. I feel that He played a direct role in my husband and my meeting and falling in love. We had to have some bad things happen in order to meet even. I don't think we are soul mates (not sure I believe in that), but just it was a matter of timing. But why the heck would God get involved in my 'love life' and not help a friend who was a young mother dying of cancer who eventually did not make it?

There are tons of ways to align why some of these seem to happen and others don't. I am not sure if we should align them though. I am not sure we need to have God follow our logic.

I understand why some people get upset when they hear that someone was able to find their keys with God's help when they have been praying for someone to recover from an illness and can't seem to get any type of response from God. On top of that we hear that if our faith is strong enough or if we pray/fast/study the scriptures enough, God will not deny us. So when things don't go right, often people decide it is either God's fault or their fault.

A few weeks ago in Church our High Councilman decided to share a story that he usually shares at the end of the year, but felt he should instead share at the begining of the year. He told us about how this baby was born very deformed and wasn't expected to live. This was before hospitals and such. The mom wouldn't stop praying for the baby to be healed even though everyone (including a patriach) said that the baby would deny and it was the baby's destiny. The mom ended up taking the baby to get a name and a blessing anyway. When she got home from doing this and unwrapped the baby, he was made whole. He went on to serve strongly in the Church. The High Councilman determined that even God will change His answers (since the patriach had said that baby would die) if we ask hard enough and pray enough and believe enough. Now while we are sitting there, a lady in our ward jumps up and rushes out of the room. She had just lost her baby six months before. She was born with a heart disorder and lived about 4 months. This mother and our whole ward prayed and fasted for this baby. How do you reconcile that with what the High Councilman said? I can't. I am not sure I even want to try. I don't think the High Councilman was necessarily wrong nor do I think that our ward or this mom didn't have enough faith.

Anyway why is it that this type of question needs an answer? I personally don't think that God micromanages us because He gave us free will and we are taught so much about that. I do think He intervenes in our lives now and again, but generally I think He is more of an observer. I don't think that changes who He is to us or the fact that we should worship and praise Him. And I think that generally speaking, I am not going to try too hard to answer the question of 'why' when it is not only impossible to answer, but the answer probably changes for each person and each situation. I also think that for me, I prefer to think of trials as lessons because I have a better out look when I do. I will also thank Him for everything that happens, even the bad because to look on it that way just helps me, not only to deal with the trial, but to be happy in life. LOL, I guess I am into this train of thought for selfish reasons.

[Nofear]

So, the fact that I have arrived at atheism is in my own best interest, at least in god's view?

We mortals frequently do things that aren't in our own best interest. Your personal decision to adopt atheism is probably one of them.

[Analytics]

Do you really find that so totally incredible?

Let's take a more stark example.

You might be successful at converting people if you try to convert people....

If I may answer the question, yes, I find it incredible.

The idea wasn

[Senator]

Do you really think the example of a starving child in Africa is valid. In the first place it is unlikely that a starving people in such a nation even believe in God. In such a circumstance their fate is accepted.

There's something about that statement that doesn't sit right.....

[Senator]

A few weeks ago in Church our High Councilman decided to share a story that he usually shares at the end of the year, but felt he should instead share at the begining of the year. He told us about how this baby was born very deformed and wasn't expected to live. This was before hospitals and such. The mom wouldn't stop praying for the baby to be healed even though everyone (including a patriach) said that the baby would deny and it was the baby's destiny. The mom ended up taking the baby to get a name and a blessing anyway. When she got home from doing this and unwrapped the baby, he was made whole. He went on to serve strongly in the Church. The High Councilman determined that even God will change His answers (since the patriach had said that baby would die) if we ask hard enough and pray enough and believe enough. Now while we are sitting there, a lady in our ward jumps up and rushes out of the room. She had just lost her baby six months before. She was born with a heart disorder and lived about 4 months. This mother and our whole ward prayed and fasted for this baby. How do you reconcile that with what the High Councilman said? I can't. I am not sure I even want to try. I don't think the High Councilman was necessarily wrong nor do I think that our ward or this mom didn't have enough faith.

Yea, it's these kind of stories that elicit a roll of the eyes from me.

I don't know about other faiths, but Mormons seem to claim an uncanny ability to explain the hows and whys of the workings of God in our lives. When in reality we don't have a clue.

All we can do is project the desire of our beliefs onto lifes mysteries.

But then again, maybe that's all that's expected of us.

Anyways, I enjoyed your thoughts..

[Deborah]

There's something about that statement that doesn't sit right.....

The point was that his example doesn't fit in with the rest of the discussion. People who grow up in such oppression and poverty are truly tragic and to compare their needs and thoughts with those of us in prosperous societies is not fitting. Since I doubt any of us here have ever really starved I doubt we can relate, but it would seem the desire would be for only the most basic of needs: to survive.