Mormon Myopia

[thesometimesaint]

To me a successful Mission is not measured in convert baptisms. But in did you increase your testimony? Did you learn something? Are you a better person for it?

[LeSellers]

yes, atheists can be myopic as well.

I

[Senator]

The point was that his example doesn't fit in with the rest of the discussion. People who grow up in such oppression and poverty are truly tragic and to compare their needs and thoughts with those of us in prosperous societies is not fitting. Since I doubt any of us here have ever really starved I doubt we can relate, but it would seem the desire would be for only the most basic of needs: to survive.

God won't intervene unless we first believe in Him, and then ask nicely? I would hope for God to be a little less conceited.

Starvation isn't enough to catch his attention?

[Vance]

For some reason these verses came to mind.

D&C 90:24 Search diligently, pray always, and be believing, and all things shall work together for your good, if ye walk uprightly and remember the covenant wherewith ye have covenanted one with another.

D&C 100:15 Therefore, let your hearts be comforted; for all things shall work together for good to them that walk uprightly, and to the sanctification of the church.

I suppose that on some occasions that might include finding keys, or a cat.

[Senator]

For some reason these verses came to mind.

D&C 90:24 Search diligently, pray always, and be believing, and all things shall work together for your good, if ye walk uprightly and remember the covenant wherewith ye have covenanted one with another.

D&C 100:15 Therefore, let your hearts be comforted; for all things shall work together for good to them that walk uprightly, and to the sanctification of the church.

I suppose that on some occasions that might include finding keys, or a cat.

That depends on what the definition of "all", is???

Regards,

Bill

[Nofear]

God won't intervene unless we first believe in Him, and then ask nicely? I would hope for God to be a little less conceited.

Starvation isn't enough to catch his attention?

I personally don't believe that at all. As posted earlier... he always acts in our best interest (tempered by the interests of many) whether or not we ask.

If we have a desired blessing, it then becomes our burden to position ourselves such that such a blessing will be good for us and not a harm. Asking for things is often a good way to so position ourselves.

Nevertheless, we must note Garth Brooks's song: Thank God for Unanswered Prayers

This tenet of faith does become difficult when dealing with catastrophes and the general condition of human suffering which are not human caused. But it is not impossible.

[Jeff K.]

If I may answer the question, yes, I find it incredible.

The idea wasn

[BookofMormonLuvr]

That's the example I was going to give. If only we missionaries were faithful and obedient enough, we would get thousands of baptisms, like Ammon or Dan Jones.

Wait, but since they have "raised the bar" (you know weeding out all the "bad kids") haven't baptismal rates actually fallen? I think there is something to be said for a young man who can relate to imperfect people because of his own past mistakes.

[Deborah]

God won't intervene unless we first believe in Him, and then ask nicely?

That is ridiculous and you know it. But starving people in Africa has nothing to do with this discussion. It's like the argument we heard as children "Eat your vegetables because people are starving in China."

God is concerned for all his children. But he allows men their agency. We in prosperous countries have the means to send help to those who are starving, and because of that we are accountable to do what we can, and we do a great deal of that as a nation and a church. Unfortunately there are those who interfere with the distribution of those things that will help the people.

If God micromanaged as some of you demand then you would complain because he's interfering too much in your lives. As it is he will send us small messages of comfort at times when the frustrating little things pile up and become too much. But he expects us to have faith in ourselves as well to do all that we can to overcome our trials.

[Deborah]

Wait, but since they have "raised the bar" (you know weeding out all the "bad kids") haven't baptismal rates actually fallen?

What the heck are you talking about?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

What the heck are you talking about?

Since the famous "raise the bar" decision, where kids with certain sins in their pasts were barred from serving a full-time mission, came into effect, LDS baptismal rates have begun to decline.

[volgadon]

Wait, but since they have "raised the bar" (you know weeding out all the "bad kids") haven't baptismal rates actually fallen?

If you mean the kind of missionaries who saw a bunch of kids in Russiajumped into the water with them and put 20 baptisms on the records, then yes, baptismal rates have fallen, and it isn't a bad thing. BTW I went on my mission after the "raise the bar" thing. I served with people who used to do drugs, sleep around, and a whole bunch of other things.

[Senator]

That is ridiculous and you know it.

Yes, that's why I said it.

But starving people in Africa has nothing to do with this discussion.

Sure it does.

Ok, here's a proposal. Lets have a chuch wide fast; not of food, but of blessings. Lets fast from asking any small or large blessings for ourselves for an entire month. Instead ask for all provenance to go toward the starving and the oppressed.

See what happens?

[David T]

I just heard (through a local missionary leadership training session) there's about to be another bar-raising of sorts, that as pre-requisites to entrance into the MTC itself, individuals who have received their call will need to have tracked (online) a Book of Mormon daily study plan, know, have studied, and taught each of the key missionary lessons, etc and have them checked off before being permitted to enter to the MTC. This will apparently be going into effect in the next few months.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

If you mean the kind of missionaries who saw a bunch of kids in Russiajumped into the water with them and put 20 baptisms on the records, then yes, baptismal rates have fallen, and it isn't a bad thing. BTW I went on my mission after the "raise the bar" thing. I served with people who used to do drugs, sleep around, and a whole bunch of other things.

Your post makes you wonder how inflated membership numbers really are. Was baptizing random neighborhood children a common occurrence?

It is good to hear that normal people are still allowed to serve.

[krose]

I

[Jason]

I think few of us understand the full implications of omniscience.

Nothing is too complicated for God to plan around. I have a strong belief that almost everything that happens serves multiple purposes in God's plan.

It's not the case that people died so the bishop could learn to perform funerals. Those people died for their own reasons beneficial to their eternal welfare, and the bishop benefitted from learning to perform the funerals as well. Multiple purposes were served. It was both their time to go and an opportunity for the bishop to learn.

As to why God will help us find eyeglasses but not restore sight, or help one person find car keys while failing to save a starving child, omniscience is the answer again. God knows what each needs and what will serve each best, and His priority is our eternal welfare - not temporal things.

[Jeff K.]

Wait, but since they have "raised the bar" (you know weeding out all the "bad kids") haven't baptismal rates actually fallen? I think there is something to be said for a young man who can relate to imperfect people because of his own past mistakes.

Oh, so if someone commits adultry and has a drug problem there is something to be said for that young man so others can relate to him? Christ must really have gotten off on the wrong foot eh?

[Jeff K.]

I just heard (through a local missionary leadership training session) there's about to be another bar-raising of sorts, that as pre-requisites to entrance into the MTC itself, individuals who have received their call will need to have tracked (online) a Book of Mormon daily study plan, know, have studied, and taught each of the key missionary lessons, etc and have them checked off before being permitted to enter to the MTC. This will apparently be going into effect in the next few months.

I don't think so since the internet is not prevalent throughout the US or the world. But it is a cute rejoinder.

[volgadon]

Your post makes you wonder how inflated membership numbers really are. Was baptizing random neighborhood children a common occurrence?

No. I'm thinking of one particular incident. A mission president had noticed on the lists a bunch of inactives whom none of the members had ever seen or heard of. He had a couple of missionaries investigate, and they uncovered the story. The names were promptly removed.

It is good to hear that normal people are still allowed to serve.

It is good to hear that you don't judge those who never had a monkey on their backs.

[Analytics]

I find it incredible to believe that a mission is merely the run of the numbers and not the conversion of the people. Some of the greatest efforts by the greatest leaders in church history and doctrine had the smallest immediate effects in terms of conversions. The promise is not, nor should it be more baptisms but an effort to do greater good (which often lead to more baptisms but not necessarily).

That's not the promise that I was told. In my mission, we were taught quite clearly that the field was white, all ready to harvest, full of people who desperately wanted to know the truth, but didn

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Oh, so if someone commits adultry and has a drug problem there is something to be said for that young man so others can relate to him? Christ must really have gotten off on the wrong foot eh?

Yes, there is something to be said for a young man who has committed errors and come to Christ repenting of his sins and how his experience can teach and benefit others. And for your to equate fallible young men with the Christ is ridiculous. Maybe comparing them to Alma or Corianton would be a better analogy. Would they be allowed to serve in your ideal little utopian paradise?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

No. I'm thinking of one particular incident. A mission president had noticed on the lists a bunch of inactives whom none of the members had ever seen or heard of. He had a couple of missionaries investigate, and they uncovered the story. The names were promptly removed.

It is good to hear that you don't judge those who never had a monkey on their backs.

I don't, but I also don't judge the person with a slightly less perfect past as any less worthy. When Christ forgives, end of story.

[volgadon]

I don't, but I also don't judge the person with a slightly less perfect past as any less worthy. When Christ forgives, end of story.

Of course. It was the snide remark about normal people that I was responding to.

[thesometimesaint]

BookofMormonLuvr:

Even Saul/Paul, Alma the younger, and Corianton had to repent first, and they didn't immediately go on Missions of the Church afterwords.

Yes Jesus forgives, if and when we follow the steps to complete repentance. Good long term studies have shown it takes a good 2 years or more of being clean and sober to have completely remove the effects of drug addiction from our bodies, and 10 years from personality. Though we will remember for the rest of our lives.

For a 19 year old looking at going on a Mission 10 years is a long time. With 26 the cut off age for starting a Mission it becomes problematic. But nothing is stopping them from going on a Mission after they retire. In fact we are asking older couples to go on Missions.