Mormon Myopia

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Let us look to Christ as the ulitmate example. Whom we use as our exemplar. What is ridiculous is rejecting that example and accepting a secondary more fallible person as the goal. But of course you are free to advocate for the lesser plan, the lesser goal, the lesser example.

I just wanted to thank you for completely misrepresenting what I said. (which seems to be a pattern with you and my posts.)

[Jeff K.]

I didn't misrepresent what you stated, I simply showed how your statement goes counter to Christ's example. How is being less Christ like a good thing for a missionary versus being more Christlike? Isn't that the gist of your position? Or do you realize the implications of what you write?

[Jason]

I don't believe that there is any unnecessary harm on Earth. With our mortal perspective it is often difficult to see what purpose is served by what we see as needless suffering, but I don't believe that God allows needless suffering. All suffering serves His children in some way, and if it truly becomes needless then He ends it.

Note that sometimes the suffering does not serve the person suffering, but others. If we all had God's perspective I think we would willingly accept the momentary suffering to help those we are commanded to love (which is everyone). When we get to the final judgement we will see the purpose behind all of it, and agree that God's actions have always been both just and merciful.

[Walden]

But a parent who deliberately watches their child fall when they can prevent it....Nope. Unless you are trying to tell us you've done that and then I would question your parenting.

What I am saying is that god does this all the time. He has the power (presumably) to prevent so much pain and suffering, but he stands idly by a watches it happen. And no, I would never do this as a parent, and I know that you would never do this is a parent, but you praise god for diong this as a parent. Thta makes no sense to me. My parenting skills are not the ones that you should be questioning. You should be questioning your gods parenting skills.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

The belief that God micromanages our lives for our benefit can lead in some instances to a form of narcissism I call Mormon Myopia.

(Although this doubtless exists in other faiths, I am primarily aware of it through my membership in the LDS Church.)

It usually assumes a benign form such as God helping find lost car keys.

But when we think that God harms others in order to aid us or in some way give us what we need, it takes a malignant turn.

Example:

A former bishop was teaching our high priest group last Sunday, and lamented about how many funerals he had to conduct during his tenure.

He said the previous bishop had conducted zero funerals, but that as soon as he was called to be the new bishop, a ward member passed away. He went on to say that he had to conduct no less than twenty-eight funerals while he was bishop. (Funerals were evidently his least favorite part of the calling.)

All of this is just factual information. It was the conclusion he drew that was interesting.

Referring to the previous bishop and the relative number of funerals each had to conduct, our teacher said, "He got what he needed. I got what I needed."

It apparently never crossed his mind to wonder if the dead people or their families were getting what they needed.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I think "stuff happens".

[Jason]

What I am saying is that god does this all the time. He has the power (presumably) to prevent so much pain and suffering, but he stands idly by a watches it happen. And no, I would never do this as a parent, and I know that you would never do this is a parent, but you praise god for diong this as a parent. Thta makes no sense to me. My parenting skills are not the ones that you should be questioning. You should be questioning your gods parenting skills.

None of us are omniscient. God is.

[tana]

From my perspective, the Abrahamic religions have deduced that the system in which god answers prayers is a format whereby an individual supreme entity is situated somewhere, perhaps in another dimension, listening to every individuals prayers, then making decisions as to the proper course of action for that person.

I submit that this system turns god into nothing more than a *loan officer*. Lets see, your credit score is this, your debt to income ratio is this.....approved/dissaproved

This God doesn't make *decisions*, he follows an algorithm and pronounces sentence.

In the worldview others have chosen to adopt, the sub-conscious mind is *God* It is the core, the one, creation and creator. The conscious mind is the individuals unique pattern of thoughts.

To ever be able to *walk on water* one must recognize this optical delusion of separation. Realize that the kingdom of heaven IS inside. We are not our ego. WE are not our thoughts. At our core We/Ye are god(s). And this is the mechanism by which prayers are answered, we answer our own.

I think people are able to accomplish the small feats of bravery in finding their lost keys because they are *small* feats. Little is on the line. If they fail it does not indicate in their mind that god doesn't exist or the church isn't true. But for the big feats of faith, few are willing to lay their hands on a cripple and command "stand and walk".....for fear of....no results.

On my mission I ran away from home and did a hunger strike to try to force gods hand, but I chickened out. Maybe someday I will pick up that pair of cardboard wings I made and jump off that cliff with perfect faith in glorious flight.....but not today.

[Deborah]

What I am saying is that god does this all the time. He has the power (presumably) to prevent so much pain and suffering, but he stands idly by a watches it happen. And no, I would never do this as a parent, and I know that you would never do this is a parent, but you praise god for diong this as a parent. Thta makes no sense to me. My parenting skills are not the ones that you should be questioning. You should be questioning your gods parenting skills.

One difference. In your example you are talking about young children still in the home. Once a child leaves home, all we can do is hope that we have taught them what they need. Occasionally they may call for help and we do what we can, but otherwise they are on their own to meet the challenges of life, and yes sometimes they get hurt and all we can do then is comfort them and maybe help them through guidance to get back on their feet.

So it is when we come to earth. We have left our home and we struggle and sometimes make right choices and sometimes wrong choices and sometimes get hurt. But we can call home and seek comfort and guidance and in doing that get back on our feet.

I think you have too myopic a vision of what God and Heaven are and so you see only a blurred view of the big picture.

[staccato]

One difference. In your example you are talking about young children still in the home. Once a child leaves home, all we can do is hope that we have taught them what they need. Occasionally they may call for help and we do what we can, but otherwise they are on their own to meet the challenges of life, and yes sometimes they get hurt and all we can do then is comfort them and maybe help them through guidance to get back on their feet.

So it is when we come to earth. We have left our home and we struggle and sometimes make right choices and sometimes wrong choices and sometimes get hurt. But we can call home and seek comfort and guidance and in doing that get back on our feet.

I think you have too myopic a vision of what God and Heaven are and so you see only a blurred view of the big picture.

Humans are children. Not adults. Children. There is your mistake right there.

[Deborah]

Humans are children. Not adults. Children. There is your mistake right there.

Our spirits were adults when we chose to come here, knowing there would be dangers and sorrows. We are God's children but we are also adult spirits who chose to come here.

[staccato]

Our spirits were adults when we chose to come here, knowing there would be dangers and sorrows. We are God's children but we are also adult spirits who chose to come here.

It matters not what you believe our state was before we came here. It is LDS belief that a veil was put over mankind at birth and they entered the earth as infants, with their minds wiped clean. Spiritually speaking, every human must go through the process of learning what is expected of them, gain skills, gain knowledge. The vast majority of mankind never even enter the realm where you believe they would become equipped with the knowledge needed to combat pain and suffering. Most are not even equipped with the knowledge that they have a Heavenly Father who loves and cares about them. Humans are literally tossed onto earth, without a roadmap to guide them through obstacles and trials. If you do not think that is not a child-like state, well we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

[Walden]

One difference. In your example you are talking about young children still in the home. Once a child leaves home, all we can do is hope that we have taught them what they need. Occasionally they may call for help and we do what we can, but otherwise they are on their own to meet the challenges of life, and yes sometimes they get hurt and all we can do then is comfort them and maybe help them through guidance to get back on their feet.

So it is when we come to earth. We have left our home and we struggle and sometimes make right choices and sometimes wrong choices and sometimes get hurt. But we can call home and seek comfort and guidance and in doing that get back on our feet.

I think you have too myopic a vision of what God and Heaven are and so you see only a blurred view of the big picture.

As staccato says, we are all children. Using your analogy above, if god is the parent and we are the children leaving home, the analogy only works if we can remember what it is that we were taught by our parents. If you as a parent put your child through some memory-erasing episode in which he/she could not remember a single thing that they were taught in childhood (or the pre-existence, according to your analogy) then I could see where you are coming from.

And I know that you will shoot back that god has given us directions, via the teachings of the LDS church, but that does little good for the mother of the starving child who is begging for gods intervention and doesn't receive it, while he is busy answering prayers for lost car keys. The LDS teachings are only good for the minsicule percentage of the worlds population who have ever been introduced to them.

[consiglieri]

I think "stuff happens".

This is pretty much where I come down, Oh My Pa Pa.

I believe God has organized a big experiment of sorts and we are stuck in the middle of the terrarium.

There is a lot of chaos that is just part of the experiment.

I do not believe God specifically causes bad things to happen to people.

Nor do I believe God specifically causes good things to happen to people.

I think God sticks us in a maelstrom of circumstances to see what we do with what we get.

And only in unusual circumstances does God interfere with the normal course of things.

(I have yet to figure out on what basis God decides to interfere.)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[SilverKnight]

And only in unusual circumstances does God interfere with the normal course of things.

Perhaps once or twice in a thousand years?