Has the World Improved?

[Nofear]

Hopefully this doesn't break a cross-posting thread, but the Mormon Transhumanist Association* has an interesting thread that might pose interest to some here:

Has the world improved?

Basically, several posters point to quite a bit of evidence suggesting general improvement in the world and not decay. What say you?

* Disclaimer: I'm loosely associated with the group. In generalities I can find several points of agreement, but in specifics, especially with respect to doctrinal interpretations, I find significant variance.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Hopefully this doesn't break a cross-posting thread, but the Mormon Transhumanist Association* has an interesting thread that might pose interest to some here:

Has the world improved?

Basically, several posters point to quite a bit of evidence suggesting general improvement in the world and not decay. What say you?

* Disclaimer: I'm loosely associated with the group. In generalities I can find several points of agreement, but in specifics, especially with respect to doctrinal interpretations, I find significant variance.

I would disagree that the world has improved. Just because there is an increase in education doesn't mean the world is better ("When they are learned... hearken not to the commandments of God."). Just because there may be less poverty, war, etc... doesn't mean the world isn't in moral decline. Judging the overall moral health of the world by physical, worldly standards is an error.

[thesometimesaint]

Fifty cents of one, half dollar of the other.

[semlogo]

Hopefully this doesn't break a cross-posting thread, but the Mormon Transhumanist Association* has an interesting thread that might pose interest to some here:

Has the world improved?

Basically, several posters point to quite a bit of evidence suggesting general improvement in the world and not decay. What say you?

* Disclaimer: I'm loosely associated with the group. In generalities I can find several points of agreement, but in specifics, especially with respect to doctrinal interpretations, I find significant variance.

I think the world has improved dramatically in all respects possible.

[semlogo]

I would disagree that the world has improved. Just because there is an increase in education doesn't mean the world is better ("When they are learned... hearken not to the commandments of God."). Just because there may be less poverty, war, etc... doesn't mean the world isn't in moral decline. Judging the overall moral health of the world by physical, worldly standards is an error.

How do you figure that the world is in moral decline? And why do you dismiss education, health and economic improvements? Aren't those things important? Doesn't the church teach that those things are important?

[Walden]

Hopefully this doesn't break a cross-posting thread, but the Mormon Transhumanist Association* has an interesting thread that might pose interest to some here:

Has the world improved?

Basically, several posters point to quite a bit of evidence suggesting general improvement in the world and not decay. What say you?

* Disclaimer: I'm loosely associated with the group. In generalities I can find several points of agreement, but in specifics, especially with respect to doctrinal interpretations, I find significant variance.

The Chicken Little, sky is falling rhetoric that is generally thrown around by both religion and the news media is one of the most frustrating aspects of either of these institutions, IMO.

Of course the world is improving. At no time in recorded history has a larger percentage of the worlds population enjoyed the political and religious freedoms that we do today. Technology has brought rapid and groundbreaking advancements in health that has extended life expectancy and general health throughout the world. There has been an explosion of education and knowledge around the globe that is unprecedented. A review of crime statistics show a general decline in violent crimes over the last 25 years (in the US, violent crime has actually decreased to 1960s levels).

I can see where one might be able to make an argument about "moral" decay, but morality is a very subjective topic that is generally subject to perspective and time. I mean, 80 years ago, one might have thought it immoral for a woman to ride in a car with a man.

If you look at the objective, factual evidence, I think that it points to a better world with greater freedom, greater health, greater technology, greater knowledge, etc.

Those claiming that the sky is falling are generally those that have an interest in the sky falling. Fear is the great motivator. It plays a role in filling seats in churches and increases viewership of news media outlets.

[CV75]

Has the world improved?

Idumea is definitively improving in the ways of the world. Zion is definitely improving in the ways of bringing heaven and earth together. The polarization is increasing, so in relation to whatever progress it enjoys (spiritual or material), Idumea is definitely faring worse by resisting Zion

[Deborah]

It's the best of times and the worst of times, depending on what we are talking about. Certainly our standard of living has improved, and with the internet we have access to things we never dreamed of even in my lifetime. But at the same time it opens up doors to things that can be very destructive to individuals and families (ie, pornography). Has the world improved? Some countries are still in the dark ages so as a whole no.

[3DOP]

Hopefully this doesn't break a cross-posting thread, but the Mormon Transhumanist Association* has an interesting thread that might pose interest to some here:

Has the world improved?

Basically, several posters point to quite a bit of evidence suggesting general improvement in the world and not decay. What say you?

* Disclaimer: I'm loosely associated with the group. In generalities I can find several points of agreement, but in specifics, especially with respect to doctrinal interpretations, I find significant variance.

It is not all decline. Clearly, technical knowledge of the world around us has allowed for many remarkable advances in every way possible. Travel, medicine, comfortable housing, and educational opportunity are available to great numbers of people that in many cases weren't even available to the most prosperous merchant and ruling classes only generations ago. These advances merit my applause and continuing favor. But from a religious moral perspective, there is clearly a decline in the accepted moral codes of those same past generations.

St. Augustine would have I think, as quickly as I am ready to do, say that the City of Man is in the ascendance while the City of God is in decline. The culture around us has come to the place where there is a tasteless vulgarity and barbarism that seems to tend to the breakdown of what used to be considered civilized behaviors. I am not suggesting that until now, there have not been evil characters ready to take advantage of the weak, or even cruddy characters that are wont to behave rudely. But the accepted presence of such social evils as abortion and legalized pornography contribute to a social environment that I think would bring shock and dismay to even the irreligious community of recent generations. It is not all decline as noted above, but there has also been remarkable rejection of Christian morality on such a scale as to make those who call themselves Christians recognize that there is a culture war at work in the world of words and ideas that make the continued existence of the faith seem almost at stake.

3DOP

[Walden]

Has the world improved? Some countries are still in the dark ages so as a whole no.

Would you say that the number of countries in the "dark ages" is greater than, less than or about the same as it was 100 years ago? What about 50 years ago?

Personally, I don't know how anyone would answer anything than "less than" to this question. Of course, there will always be countries that are technologically and socially behind the wealthiest and most advanced countries in the world, but that doesn't mean that advances have not been made in those countries that you classify as being in the "dark ages."

To say the world, as a whole, has not improved because there are still countries that are in the "dark ages" is puzzling to me.

[WalkerW]

The world has greatly improved and is continuing to. I invite anyone who is interested to read Matt Ridley, The Rational Optimist: How Prosperity Evolves (HarperCollins, 2010).

This isn't to say that the world is perfect or doesn't have other problems that have arisen. I do worry about the libertinism that is often confused for liberalism. I think much of that comes from certain philosophical assumptions and worldviews that have been dangerous and continue to pose a danger. See, for example, David Bentley Hart, "Christ and Nothing," First Things 136 (Oct. 2003).

But overall, I think there is much to rejoice in.

[WalkerW]

Those claiming that the sky is falling are generally those that have an interest in the sky falling. Fear is the great motivator. It plays a role in filling seats in churches and increases viewership of news media outlets.

Or passing policies that shouldn't be passed.

[semlogo]

It's the best of times and the worst of times, depending on what we are talking about. Certainly our standard of living has improved, and with the internet we have access to things we never dreamed of even in my lifetime. But at the same time it opens up doors to things that can be very destructive to individuals and families (ie, pornography). Has the world improved? Some countries are still in the dark ages so as a whole no.

Pornography has existed for thousands of years, and it may be more prevalent now, but that's comparatively minor to the immorality of the past - for example, slavery, and sexual abuse of slaves. Not to mention child labor and the subjugation of women.

[Walden]

But the accepted presence of such social evils as abortion and legalized pornography contribute to a social environment that I think would bring shock and dismay to even the irreligious community of recent generations. It is not all decline as noted above, but there has also been remarkable rejection of Christian morality on such a scale as to make those who call themselves Christians recognize that there is a culture war at work in the world of words and ideas that make the continued existence of the faith seem almost at stake.

3DOP

Yes, and 50 years ago, people of color were considered second class citizens in a large number of states throughout this country. And 175 years ago, the evil practice of slavery was accepted as "normal" by a large portion of the population of this great country. 250 years ago, it was considered acceptable to burn people at the stake for speaking blasphemy against religion.

The "moral" adversities that we face may be new, but the concept is old. Each generation has an objectionable "moral" dilemna that it must confront.

Yes, I agree that there has been a sharp increase in the rejection of "Christian morality" as you have noted. But I would posit that this leads to a Christian perception that the world is in decline, whether it actually is or not (which it is not). Christianity and the morals that it adheres to may be in decline, but that does not mean that the world is in decline.....it just means that "Christian morality" is in decline.

[semlogo]

St. Augustine would have I think, as quickly as I am ready to do, say that the City of Man is in the ascendance while the City of God is in decline. The culture around us has come to the place where there is a tasteless vulgarity and barbarism that seems to tend to the breakdown of what used to be considered civilized behaviors.

[WalkerW]

Pornography has existed for thousands of years, and it may be more prevalent now, but that's comparatively minor to the immorality of the past - for example, slavery, and sexual abuse of slaves. Not to mention child labor and the subjugation of women.

I agree. Doesn't mean we shouldn't object to pornography, but we should be happy that what is normal today was revolutionary (and I use this is a positive, moral sense) a relatively short time ago.

[WalkerW]

Yes, and 50 years ago, people of color were considered second class citizens in a large number of states throughout this country. And 175 years ago, the evil practice of slavery was accepted as "normal" by a large portion of the population of this great country. 250 years ago, it was considered acceptable to burn people at the stake for speaking blasphemy against religion.

The "moral" adversities that we face may be new, but the concept is old. Each generation has an objectionable "moral" dilemna that it must confront.

Yes, I agree that there has been a sharp increase in the rejection of "Christian morality" as you have noted. But I would posit that this leads to a Christian perception that the world is in decline, whether it actually is or not (which it is not). Christianity and the morals that it adheres to may be in decline, but that does not mean that the world is in decline.....it just means that "Christian morality" is in decline.

Some aspects of what you call "Christian morality" are in decline, but many of the moral norms of today were born out of "Christian morality."

Like I said, there is much to rejoice in, but plenty of work to do.

[WalkerW]

Semlogo,

I love your Joseph Smith quote.

[cinepro]

I think the world is worse than it used to be.

Then again, I'm a healthy white christian male born into the middle class.

[Deborah]

St. Augustine would have I think, as quickly as I am ready to do, say that the City of Man is in the ascendance while the City of God is in decline.

I can agree with this.

[semlogo]

Semlogo,

I love your Joseph Smith quote.

Thanks! It's one of my favorites.

[Deborah]

Pornography has existed for thousands of years, and it may be more prevalent now, but that's comparatively minor to the immorality of the past - for example, slavery, and sexual abuse of slaves. Not to mention child labor and the subjugation of women.

Of course there were abuses and in many ways we've come a long way. But given all that we have access to now we should be doing better. And btw slavery is still prevalent in some areas as well as sexual abuse and the subjugation of women.

[semlogo]

Of course there were abuses and in many ways we've come a long way. But given all that we have access to now we should be doing better. And btw slavery is still prevalent in some areas as well as sexual abuse and the subjugation of women.

Yes, some of those things are still around, but the point is, it's getting better. The world is a better place now than it ever was at any point in history.

[3DOP]

Yes, and 50 years ago, people of color were considered second class citizens in a large number of states throughout this country. And 175 years ago, the evil practice of slavery was accepted as "normal" by a large portion of the population of this great country. 250 years ago, it was considered acceptable to burn people at the stake for speaking blasphemy against religion.

The "moral" adversities that we face may be new, but the concept is old. Each generation has an objectionable "moral" dilemna that it must confront.

Yes, I agree that there has been a sharp increase in the rejection of "Christian morality" as you have noted. But I would posit that this leads to a Christian perception that the world is in decline, whether it actually is or not (which it is not). Christianity and the morals that it adheres to may be in decline, but that does not mean that the world is in decline.....it just means that "Christian morality" is in decline.

I applauded advances that have come about in recent generations. I am thankful that people are less often persecuted for their race than was once customary. Burning is not likely to become popular again, but it will always be popular to at least suppress, if not kill those who are perceived to be ideological enemies that are a threat to the established order. In this country, after 9/11, there was a widespread approval, if necessary, of torture to protect us against terrorism. I could expand on this. All I am saying is that people are still prone to view an ideological minority as fearfully and suspiciously as ever.

I am late for an appointment. I hope you don't see this as a dismissal of your case. I somewhat agreed. I don't think mankind as a whole is better or worse. We have a different environment, and if I was in Germany in 1933, I have no idea if I would have sniffed out Hitler as a monster or not. I'd like to linger over this but I have to run.

Thanks for your reply.

3DOP

[sunstoned]

It is not all decline. Clearly, technical knowledge of the world around us has allowed for many remarkable advances in every way possible. Travel, medicine, comfortable housing, and educational opportunity are available to great numbers of people that in many cases weren't even available to the most prosperous merchant and ruling classes only generations ago. These advances merit my applause and continuing favor. But from a religious moral perspective, there is clearly a decline in the accepted moral codes of those same past generations.

St. Augustine would have I think, as quickly as I am ready to do, say that the City of Man is in the ascendance while the City of God is in decline. The culture around us has come to the place where there is a tasteless vulgarity and barbarism that seems to tend to the breakdown of what used to be considered civilized behaviors. I am not suggesting that until now, there have not been evil characters ready to take advantage of the weak, or even cruddy characters that are wont to behave rudely. But the accepted presence of such social evils as abortion and legalized pornography contribute to a social environment that I think would bring shock and dismay to even the irreligious community of recent generations. It is not all decline as noted above, but there has also been remarkable rejection of Christian morality on such a scale as to make those who call themselves Christians recognize that there is a culture war at work in the world of words and ideas that make the continued existence of the faith seem almost at stake.

3DOP

St. Augustine lived in a time when a person could be killed for their religious beliefs (and for non-belief). The vast majority of the population was unschooled and knew little of what the Bible taught. And what about the rest of the world at this time? Was living in Japan or the near East better then that now?

To those who say we are in moral decline, I ask a simple question: please point out to me where in the world's history is this righteous high point that we seem to be devolving from.