Has the World Improved?

[3DOP]

St. Augustine lived in a time when a person could be killed for their religious beliefs (and for non-belief). The vast majority of the population was unschooled and knew little of what the Bible taught. And what about the rest of the world at this time? Was living in Japan or the near East better then that now?

To those who say we are in moral decline, I ask a simple question: please point out to me where in the world's history is this righteous high point that we seem to be devolving from.

Hi sunstoned.

I think I must have been unclear. I have apparently given the impression that I pine to live in an illiterate society where I can kill or be killed for my religious beliefs. I do not want to kill or be killed. Nor do I want to limit the ability to read. I do believe that modern means of schooling, broady speaking, ordinarily provides a platform from which to look down upon ages past condescendingly without any promise of increase in wisdom. I am not as enthused with it as nearly everyone else is. If we only could learn to read and write without the collective arrogance that seems to follow, I could be more thankful for it.

I cited St. Augustine for the simple reason that he drew a necessary, if blurry division between what he termed the City of God and the City of Man, which inevitably arises in discussions of this sort. The story of the Tower of Babel in the Bible typifies the kinds of advances that might not be beneficial. Without reference to God, the sciences bring swelling pride in man's achievements that make us forget our place in the Cosmos. No one is going to say that it is bad to have swift, affordable, and safe transportation all over the world. All good things are beneficial according to their proper order. But religious persecution is alive and well on the planet today anyway, and if thousands of people in past ages were murdered for their religious ideology, in our age millions are being legally murdered for money because they are too small. It seems difficult to overlook this fact in an evaluation of the question raised.

I have to run again. Perhaps I can respond to your good question about the "high point" later in the day.

3DOP

[Lightbearer]

Basically, several posters point to quite a bit of evidence suggesting general improvement in the world and not decay. What say you?

I must agree with Deborah (the best of times and the worst of times). First the technological advancements and educational, health, and living conditions in general are far superior to any other time in history (as far as we can tell). Yet there are serious problems, for all our advancement and cultural superiority there are many problems that are faced today that were unknown or non-existent in ancient times. The internet, while it is an amazing thing with a potential for much good, to connect people and advance communication... still it has great flaws, some of the information put up on the Net is hogwash, pornography, and others are just false and foolish propaganda instead of history or educational ideals. The drugs, sex, and lack of civility has almost defined modern culture. And yet, Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed hundreds of years ago... and almost at the same period the city of Enoch was translated. The nephites were whiped out only a few centuries after they were described as:

(4 Nephi 1:16) "...and surely there could not be a happier people among all the people who had been created by the hand of God."

Anciently, in the Old world, the Gospel of Christ was polluted and destroyed through apostasy and persecution... in fact the Lord saw fit to restore His Gospel in the latter days to prepare the world for His Second coming. This is a day of warning, why because of the iniquity that abounds, they are ripening for destruction.

(D&C 1:31-36) "For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven; And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts. And again, verily I say unto you, O inhabitants of the earth: I the Lord am willing to make these things known unto all flesh; For I am no respecter of persons, and will that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand, when peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion. And also the Lord shall have power over his saints, and shall reign in their midst, and shall come down in judgment upon Idumea, or the world."

Sounds as if while the wicked may get more wicked the righteous will be preserved by the Lord. I think that is why the Lord's coming has been described as the great and dreadful day... great for the righteous, dreadful for the wicked. So while it can be argued that the world is more wicked then ever, yet at the same time righteousness is also more abundant than ever as well. I think that is what is meant by the fullness of times. So while times are bad (meaning immorality and hate and wickedness) this time is the greatest in all of history, the times of restitution of all things spoken by the mouths of all the holy prophets since the world began. Since this is the "best of times" Satan is in his last offensive and is endevoring to make his greatest stand in this day. But the Lord is faithful and will bring us off triumphant if we will seek after Him.

[keithb]

Idumea is definitively improving in the ways of the world. Zion is definitely improving in the ways of bringing heaven and earth together. The polarization is increasing, so in relation to whatever progress it enjoys (spiritual or material), Idumea is definitely faring worse by resisting Zion

[keithb]

Hi sunstoned.

Without reference to God, the sciences bring swelling pride in man's achievements that make us forget our place in the Cosmos.

Yeah, those arrogant scientists! They need to remember their place with respect to religion. I mean, the priesthood and faith were curing small pox for hundreds of years before "science" ever decided to take up the challenge.

As for the world being worse now (in terms of righteousness) than at previous times in history, I agree with the majority of the other posters that the world is generally improving, both in terms of living standards and personal morality. Today has pornography (if you consider that bad); the past had institutionalized human slavery. Which is worse?

[theresa11]

Hopefully this doesn't break a cross-posting thread, but the Mormon Transhumanist Association* has an interesting thread that might pose interest to some here:

Has the world improved?

Basically, several posters point to quite a bit of evidence suggesting general improvement in the world and not decay. What say you?

* Disclaimer: I'm loosely associated with the group. In generalities I can find several points of agreement, but in specifics, especially with respect to doctrinal interpretations, I find significant variance.

[theresa11]

NO , there is starvation, war, rioting, hate, sickness plagues, earth quakes, floods, selfishness etc.... were in the last days its all down hill from here ,sorry to burst any bubbles, some people are afraid to see the truth, so they put on there rose colored glasses , but eventually as they live long enough they will experience the harsh cruel nature of this world. Im looking forward to the Millennium , its just around the corner.

[semlogo]

NO , there is starvation, war, rioting, hate, sickness plagues, earth quakes, floods, selfishness etc.... were in the last days its all down hill from here ,sorry to burst any bubbles, some people are afraid to see the truth, so they put on there rose colored glasses , but eventually as they live long enough they will experience the harsh cruel nature of this world. Im looking forward to the Millennium , its just around the corner.

Can you think of time in human history when those things didn't exist?

Neither can I.

[mmmcounts]

The world is vastly better than it once was. There is room for improvement in terms of renewable sources of energy, but cars are still a much better means of conveyance than horses. There's much need for reform in health care, but medical science as well as its availability is still much better than it once was. There's plenty of corruption and chicanery in every government, but politicians are able to get away with less than they once were and the overall progression is towards a greater amount of justice for a greater amount of people.

On a large scale, this has been happening quite consistently....at least since the Enlightenment. And yes, there's bad things to say about the Enlightenment. On balance, though, the overall effect has been consistently good.

[nicolasconnault]

People who have lived through most of the last century are better placed to tell us what the world was like back then. I have spoken to many, and almost unanimously they say that, though it had many problems which are being resolved today (e.g. in science), there is a definite moral decay. Each general conference our prophets and apostles repeat over and over that the moral fabric of society is falling apart. Those who disagree are well described in 2 Nephi 28:20-23.

Trying to use a single scale to measure the world's state is foolish, simplistic and useless. One might as well say: "The universe is better today than it was yesterday". You just don't know.

[Libs]

This world has definitely improved in almost every way (and I've been around for well over a half a century).

There is more sexual immorality (at least, overtly, possibly not in reality), but the really big sins of this country, and others, is finally becoming much less. For the most part, people are no longer judged and treated differently, based on the color of their skin or their gender. Not perfect, but definitely MUCH better. And I do have a basis for comparison, as I am old enough to remember segregation. It was a horrendously evil system.

Overall, I have to say much better.

[nicolasconnault]

This world has definitely improved in almost every way (and I've been around for well over a half a century).

There is more sexual immorality (at least, overtly, possibly not in reality), but the really big sins of this country, and others, is finally becoming much less. For the most part, people are no longer judged and treated differently, based on the color of their skin or their gender. Not perfect, but definitely MUCH better. And I do have a basis for comparison, as I am old enough to remember segregation. It was a horrendously evil system.

Overall, I have to say much better.

Why am I getting the increasingly clear picture that the majority of posters here are actually commenting on "Has the USA improved?".

Besides, the "really big sins" include adultery and fornication, do they not? Do you think these are becoming "much less"?

Let's also talk about behaviour, shall we not? Is the obesity epidemic an improvement over any previous age in recorded history? What about the related diabetes epidemic?

Here's another nail in this coffin: how can anyone here possibly know enough about history to know that no previous period of time was "better" than the current one? Is recorded history objective, accurate and complete?

I have already said this in a similar earlier thread: shouldn't we commenting on how much happier people actually are, instead of discussing how much happier they ought to be considering how the world has so dramatically improved?

I'm not trying to make a point that the world is worse, or that it is better. My point is that, even if it were possible to gauge the overall state of the world using a single-dimension scale (which it isn't), no one on this planet could possibly have enough information to formulate an accurate comparison of our current world's state with any previous state.

Unless he is a true prophet, of course...

[why me]

Of course the world is improving. At no time in recorded history has a larger percentage of the worlds population enjoyed the political and religious freedoms that we do today. Technology has brought rapid and groundbreaking advancements in health that has extended life expectancy and general health throughout the world. There has been an explosion of education and knowledge around the globe that is unprecedented. A review of crime statistics show a general decline in violent crimes over the last 25 years (in the US, violent crime has actually decreased to 1960s levels).

This is not quite true. Political freedom does not ensure a goog quality of life. We can look to the United States and to the countries of europe for proof of this. What we see in the world today, is a general alienation from the sources of power. And relative poverty has also increased in the developed world. Both in america and in europe. And with the rise of techology, we have a general sense of rootlessness as the processes of change can uproot us into the unknown. Not good at all.

[why me]

This world has definitely improved in almost every way (and I've been around for well over a half a century).

There is more sexual immorality (at least, overtly, possibly not in reality), but the really big sins of this country, and others, is finally becoming much less. For the most part, people are no longer judged and treated differently, based on the color of their skin or their gender. Not perfect, but definitely MUCH better. And I do have a basis for comparison, as I am old enough to remember segregation. It was a horrendously evil system.

Overall, I have to say much better.

Since the world is beginning to embrace individualism at the expense of more collectivist values, we see a certain loneliness in the world as people become disconnected. In India for example, the socalled wealth effect has increased the rate the suicide in that country. Not good. As various societies become more survivalist in texture, we see a loss of community and shared values. Not good also. And with the rise of consumerism as a shared gospel, we have become more branded than ever before. Not good also.

[why me]

People who have lived through most of the last century are better placed to tell us what the world was like back then. I have spoken to many, and almost unanimously they say that, though it had many problems which are being resolved today (e.g. in science), there is a definite moral decay.

Moral decay is not at all surprising since we see a pornofication of various societies. The media through the use of music videos tend to promote such pornofication. As an example I offer a music video by Kylie Minogue:

But this moral decay is not just seen in pornofication but within the social darwinism that seems to have taken over large parts of the world. We humans were not made for a survivalism between the strong and weak humans. Our cooperative spirit is now suffering from such a philosophy.

[why me]

?

I'm not trying to make a point that the world is worse, or that it is better. My point is that, even if it were possible to gauge the overall state of the world using a single-dimension scale (which it isn't), no one on this planet could possibly have enough information to formulate an accurate comparison of our current world's state with any previous state.

Lets look at america where hundreds of thousands of people have lost their homes and where relative poverty has increased. How can we say that those who live in the united states are better off now than before? We can't. But what we can say, is that there is a general lack of love in the society as people who bought their homes with good faith, were betrayed by a system of greed.

And it is this greed that now possesses the world. The world is a greedy place where greed is okay among the top sectors of societies. And it then filters down among the general populations. We seem to be living in a ideology of greed. And if so, how are we better off because of it?

[semlogo]

People who have lived through most of the last century are better placed to tell us what the world was like back then. I have spoken to many, and almost unanimously they say that, though it had many problems which are being resolved today (e.g. in science), there is a definite moral decay. Each general conference our prophets and apostles repeat over and over that the moral fabric of society is falling apart. Those who disagree are well described in 2 Nephi 28:20-23.

Trying to use a single scale to measure the world's state is foolish, simplistic and useless. One might as well say: "The universe is better today than it was yesterday". You just don't know.

I'd rather have the pernicious evils of violent video games than the pernicious evils of Jim Crow laws, thanks. I'm pretty sure old folks have been saying that the world is going to hell in a hand basket ever since the invention of the front porch with a rocking chair on it.

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - Socrates

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint." (Hesiod, 8th century BC)

[semlogo]

"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of

today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for

parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as

if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is

foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest

and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress." - Peter the Hermit, A.D. 1274

[Walden]

Lets look at america where hundreds of thousands of people have lost their homes and where relative poverty has increased. How can we say that those who live in the united states are better off now than before? We can't. But what we can say, is that there is a general lack of love in the society as people who bought their homes with good faith, were betrayed by a system of greed.

And it is this greed that now possesses the world. The world is a greedy place where greed is okay among the top sectors of societies. And it then filters down among the general populations. We seem to be living in a ideology of greed. And if so, how are we better off because of it?

I think that you are missing the forest for the trees. To take a snapshot of the last 4 years of the economy in America and then project that into your entire perspective of the world would of course make you think that the world is not improving. Yes, thousands of people have lost their jobs and their homes, but we are still better off than our grandparents were during the depression of the 1930s.

You may think that Americans are worse off than before, but the facts don't lend themselves to this perspective.

The facts are this: more Americans have access to education then ever before. More Americans have access to healthcare then ever before. There are more avenues for assistance then ever before. Violent crime rates have been reduced drastically in this country in the past 15 years. Yes, there are problems with healthcare, education, etc. But they pale in comparison to the problems of just a century ago, when education was only for the wealthy or the connected, healthcare for the poor was non-existent and the country was divided upon racial lines.

And this only takes into account a small portion of the improvements we've seen in America. Throughout the world, more people enjoy freedom than at any other time in history, there is a larger middle class than at any other time in history, healthcare advances have increased tremendously, more people have access to an education than at any point in history....just to name a few.

You state that "people who bought their homes with good faith, were betrayed by a system of greed.....And it is this greed that now possesses the world. The world is a greedy place where greed is okay among the top sectors of societies. And it then filters down among the general populations. We seem to be living in a ideology of greed. And if so, how are we better off because of it?" Yes, I agree that the world is a greedy place, and that the love of money is a corrupting factor in our society. However, this has always been the case, going back to ancient times. Greed is nothing new. In fact, the common man has more protections now against fraudulent banks, corrupt corporations and unsavory business deals than at any point in history.

The point is that things are improving. In the past 4 years, it may not seem so if one only takes into account the financial troubles that have hit the economy. But in the large scale sense, the world is a healthier, better educated, wealthier, and more free world than at any point in human history. Those are the facts.

Based on health and life expectancy rates, political and personal freedoms, economic advances, educational opportunity and technological advances, I would say the world is a better place. Of course, you can find exceptions if you look hard enough, but these exceptions do not negate the rule.

Yes, "christian morality" seems to be in decline, but that doesn't mean that the world is in decline. Look at the facts and you will realize the same.

It is time that the news media, the government and the religious stop promoting this

[nicolasconnault]

I'd rather have the pernicious evils of violent video games than the pernicious evils of Jim Crow laws, thanks. I'm pretty sure old folks have been saying that the world is going to hell in a hand basket ever since the invention of the front porch with a rocking chair on it.

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - Socrates

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint." (Hesiod, 8th century BC)

Semlogo, I understand your argument, you make a convincing point. However, it reflects an incorrect view of the world's progression as constant, forward and upward, from day 1 until today. Do you realise how simplistic that is?

Have you never studied the rise and fall of nations? The quotes you give are great, thanks for sharing, but do they not give us indications of behavioural "markers" heralding the moral decay of that specific civilisation?

Would you say that, for the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, the "world" was a better place the day previous to its destruction than 50 years earlier?

What about the world just previous to the flood? Had it been continuously improving in a linear fashion since the fall of Adam?

Assuming you accept the cyclic nature of the moral state of entire civilisations, are you still willing to hold onto your assertion that, today, the world is a better place than any other time in its history, in every possible regard?

Please also respond to my rebuttals in my earlier post.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The world was prospering in the days of Noah. Doesn't mean they had a better world...

Matt 24

37But as the days of ^aNoe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the ^aflood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

But if you want to fool yourself into believing that "all is well in Zion, yeah, Zion prospereth", that is your prerogative.

[WalkerW]

There is much to be grateful for. Recognizing improvements in the world (by the way, Ridley's work is about the globe, not just one nation) is not an attempt to avoid our responsibility is continual improvement. But to always be on the side of gloom I find to fly in the face of prophetic counsel.

[nicolasconnault]

Based on health and life expectancy rates, political and personal freedoms, economic advances, educational opportunity and technological advances, I would say the world is a better place. Of course, you can find exceptions if you look hard enough, but these exceptions do not negate the rule.

Would these exceptions include happiness, or is that not a valid indicator of progress?

Yes, "christian morality" seems to be in decline, but that doesn't mean that the world is in decline. Look at the facts and you will realize the same.

That is the poorest attempt at rhetoric I have seen in this entire thread! Do you realise you are posting this is on a Christian, religious forum?

It is time that the news media, the government and the religious stop promoting this

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Would these exceptions include happiness, or is that not a valid indicator of progress?

That is the poorest attempt at rhetoric I have seen in this entire thread! Do you realise you are posting this is on a Christian, religious forum?

You are completely and utterly missing the point. This is not about doomsday prophecies. This is about attempts to justify self-destructive, immoral behaviour by proclaiming that none of what we are doing is wrong because our world is getting so much better despite our behaviour! Essentially, the ridiculous argument being made here, as subtle as it may be, is this:

1. Technology, science, education opportunities, equality of rights and other such indicators are valid indicators of overall world "goodness"

2. A good world is an indication that we're doing the right thing, overall

3. The world is better today on all the indicators mentioned in #1 than it was 100 years, 200 years, 1,000 years ago

4. Therefore the world, overall, is better today than it was 100 years, 200 years, 1,000 years ago

5. Therefore we're doing "the right thing", overall

6. Therefore our society is not in moral decay and we shouldn't worry about any prophecies regarding our destruction because of our supposed wickedness

Amen and Amen!!!

[Walden]

Would these exceptions include happiness, or is that not a valid indicator of progress?

That is the poorest attempt at rhetoric I have seen in this entire thread! Do you realise you are posting this is on a Christian, religious forum?

You are completely and utterly missing the point. This is not about doomsday prophecies. This is about attempts to justify self-destructive, immoral behaviour by proclaiming that none of what we are doing is wrong because our world is getting so much better despite our behaviour! Essentially, the ridiculous argument being made here, as subtle as it may be, is this:

1. Technology, science, education opportunities, equality of rights and other such indicators are valid indicators of overall world "goodness"

2. A good world is an indication that we're doing the right thing, overall

3. The world is better today on all the indicators mentioned in #1 than it was 100 years, 200 years, 1,000 years ago

4. Therefore the world, overall, is better today than it was 100 years, 200 years, 1,000 years ago

5. Therefore we're doing "the right thing", overall

6. Therefore our society is not in moral decay and we shouldn't worry about any prophecies regarding our destruction because of our supposed wickedness

Yes, I do realize that I am on a religious board (though I'm not religious). If all you want to hear is a cacophony of agreement in this echo-chamber of religous self-gratitude, then why come to a discussion board? You can get that at church each Sunday. I thought that this board was an instrument for discussion, debate and critical thought.....seems you prefer one in which everyone just tows the party line and nods with one another in agreement.

You seem to equate "happiness" with a single-minded, Christian morality, one in which "goodness" can only be achieved through the narrow confines of Christian acceptance.

Yes, the world still has evil and corruption, as it has for centuries, and as it will for centuries to come. Is it more evil than centuries past? My argument is that it is not.

You flippantly discard the educational, technological, medical, political and social advances that we have achieved in the past century alone in order to push your agenda that the world is in peril because of the growing disenchantment with "Christian morality." Forget the billions of people who have prospered from these advances, but gays just got rights to get married in another state, so the world is coming to an end.....that's your argument? Please.

Christian morality, not the world, is what is coming to an end. You can continue to run around telling everyone how the sky is falling, but the rest of the world will continue to move forward to usher in even greater advances over the next centuries, by which time Christianity will be a thing of the past.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Yes, I do realize that I am on a religious board (though I'm not religious). If all you want to hear is a cacophony of agreement in this echo-chamber of religous self-gratitude, then why come to a discussion board? You can get that at church each Sunday. I thought that this board was an instrument for discussion, debate and critical thought.....seems you prefer one in which everyone just tows the party line and nods with one another in agreement.

You seem to equate "happiness" with a single-minded, Christian morality, one in which "goodness" can only be achieved through the narrow confines of Christian acceptance.

Yes, the world still has evil and corruption, as it has for centuries, and as it will for centuries to come. Is it more evil than centuries past? My argument is that it is not.

You flippantly discard the educational, technological, medical, political and social advances that we have achieved in the past century alone in order to push your agenda that the world is in peril because of the growing disenchantment with "Christian morality." Forget the billions of people who have prospered from these advances, but gays just got rights to get married in another state, so the world is coming to an end.....that's your argument? Please.

Christian morality, not the world, is what is coming to an end. You can continue to run around telling everyone how the sky is falling, but the rest of the world will continue to move forward to usher in even greater advances over the next centuries, by which time Christianity will be a thing of the past.

The sky isn't falling, but Jesus is coming in the clouds with the hosts of heaven to set-up His Kingdom on the Earth. So you can flippantly dismiss "Christian Morality" but you do so to your own peril...

D&C 45:32

But my disciples shall stand in holy places, and shall not be moved; but among the wicked, men shall lift up their voices and curse God and die.