Applied mormonism: tithing vs. debt elimination

[LeSellers]

In all sincerity, how could they pay off their debt in a few months without changing their spending in any other way? I would really love to understand what you are saying here.

Please realize that the techniques I use are highly individualized, and what works in your situation will not work for anyone else. Also know that much of what I do is classified as "trade secrets". I charge a modest fee for what I do, but I have saved people as much as $250 for every dollar they pay me. (The average is only ~$75, but that's still far from a bad return on investment.)

For these reasons, I cannot tell you exactly what needs to happen, but, in a nutshell, you have to use your money twice, use the bank's, money when you need to buy anything, and do it without paying any interest. All of these things are very simple, but the person needs to be wise and cautious in doing them. That's where a Credit-Management and Debt-Elimination coach comes in: we know the process, and have the experience to adapt the general techniques to the specific case.

In general, the more debt you have (within reason, and in proportion to your income) the faster I can make serious changes in the monthly cash flow. From little changes in the cash flow, greater change arise, until there is a complete change in the financial scenery.

Lehi

[bluebell]

Please realize that the techniques I use are highly individualized, and what works in your situation will not work for anyone else. Also know that much of what I do is classified as "trade secrets". I charge a modest fee for what I do, but I have saved people as much as $250 for every dollar they pay me. (The average is only ~$75, but that's still far from a bad return on investment.)

For these reasons, I cannot tell you exactly what needs to happen, but, in a nutshell, you have to use your money twice, use the bank's, money when you need to buy anything, and do it without paying any interest. All of these things are very simple, but the person needs to be wise and cautious in doing them. That's where a Credit-Management and Debt-Elimination coach comes in: we know the process, and have the experience to adapt the general techniques to the specific case.

In general, the more debt you have (within reason, and in proportion to your income) the faster I can make serious changes in the monthly cash flow. From little changes in the cash flow, greater change arise, until there is a complete change in the financial scenery.

Lehi

Interesting.

[Avatar4321]

Exercise faith and pay tithing. God has promised if you work hard and are dilligent he will eliminate your debt.

[SeattleGhostWriter]

This came up in high priest lesson this past week. The class was divided. Here's the scenario:

Bill & Sally are in debt, and want to follow the counsel of the LDS prophets to get out of debt. However, they are in a bit of a bind. You see, Bill & Sally have a monthly budget that looks like this:

Income: $1200

Expenses (assume they are modest and can't be reduced): $1000

Tithing: $120

Debt payment: $120

Monthly balance: ($40)

The question is this: Are Bill & Sally justified in using their tithing to pay off their debt, until that debt has been eliminated? Please, no solutions like, "Pray about it", or "Bill/Sally can get a better paying job", or, "They should do <some financial trick>"... Let stick to the core issue - Will God understand if Bill & Sally use tithing money to pay debt?

H.

This is actually not far off from our personal financial situation. With me now being laid off and the plant closing, our two-income household is down to mainly one income. With my debt and my wife's debt, we have more outgoing than we do incoming. Recently, we were asked to prepare a "Budget" for a "needs analysis" in order to put in a food order. Our current tithing actually equals the amount of money that we are in the red for.

The advice we received is to cut out all "luxuries" like cable, cell phones, and for me to take up two jobs. Here is the thing, and our dilemma, I currently attend school for a communications degree. Granted it is online, there is still alot of homework (in fact, I am behind two weeks already and looks like I am going to be behind for three weeks). I am also an honor student and am being requested to perform certain accomplishments in order to graduate with honors. We also have an almost 14 month old that if I took up two jobs, we would have to put her in daycare/ hire a sitter and then that will place us right where we are currently sitting at financially.

Which is the most financial prudent advice in paying our tithing? I have actually suggested to my wife that we estimate how much we will bring in for the year (since I am going to be getting a good size severance pay out from the plant closure and my wife will receive her portion of income tax) that we make a one lump sum tithing payment for the year. This would free up money for us to put towards eliminating most of our debt.

Also, with me being out of work, I am looking to establish either a housecleaning business or setting myself up as a freelance editor. Either way, I have to find some type of work so that I could contribute in paying some of the bills and eliminating our debt.

This is definitely a hard question to answer because we are counseled to get out of debt as much as we possibly can, however, we also are asked to pay an "honest tithe".

Here is my feeling and it goes back to the poverty stricken woman who cast all that she owned into the coffer. She was blessed because she gave everything she had to bless another while others gave out of their abundance out of commandment.

[LDSToronto]

We are again facing the issue of financial ignorance. Mr & Mrs. Bill are not using their money properly, and their debt is only an illustration of their lack of knowledge.

In most cases, people in just this situation can change their monthly cash flow far more than the $40 they are now short, and will be able, with the additional cash flow, pay off their debt in a startlingly short time.

Lehi, you aren't playing by the rules I set out - no magical financial tricks allowed.

H.

[LDSToronto]

Exercise faith and pay tithing. God has promised if you work hard and are dilligent he will eliminate your debt.

Where did he make that promise? For that matter, where has God ever made financial blessing a general outcome of obedience to a commandment? Because if he has made general financial promises, I will be doubly obedient to that law upon which those blessings are predicated.

H.

[LDSToronto]

False dichotomy. They can do both: pay off the debt and pay their tithing.

I have reversed people who are up to 10% negative every month. In Bill & Sally's case, they could be spending as much as $80 more every month and they'd still be able to pay off their debt and pay their tithing as per counsel.

Lehi

Ah, but the real question, Lehi, is could they afford you?

H.

[LDSToronto]

Also know that much of what I do is classified as "trade secrets".

OK, now I draw the line - Lehi, much of what any financial planner does can be found on the internet. The 'secret' is in the following of the advice.

H.

[LDSToronto]

I suspect it comes down to what blessings they might be missing. Is coming to know that God is absolutely real and that, as impossible as it may seem, He keeps His word and therefore can be trusted fully a blessing worth missing?

I would suspect the overt and binding guilt that Bill and Sally feel is a direct result of their knowledge that God is absolutely real and that they may miss out on blessings or be punished.

H.

[BCSpace]

One question to ask is getting out of debt just as strong a commandment as tithing? One could argue that by virtue of Luke 16:9-11, it is. But one could also argue that staying out of debt is the commandment and having to get out of debt is just a consequence of breaking this commandment. And then again, one could also argue that all of God's commandments/requirements are equally necessary and it's up to the individual to determine the proper tension between them for themselves and their situation.

I have not necessarily decided on any of them in my mind but currently, I do have some debt beyond house and car and I do pay tithing on my gross income.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I would suspect the overt and binding guilt that Bill and Sally feel is a direct result of their knowledge that God is absolutely real and that they may miss out on blessings or be punished.

Learning to trust the Lord isn't about either guilt or being punished. It's very much about being blessed: 'Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].' Though I suspect you're already familiar on a certain level with this verse.

[Bsix]

Yes, but God's not going to send a credit collector after Bill & Sally, is he? Nor do I think the Church will collapse if they miss, say, 6 months of tithe from Bill & Sally.

On the other hand, Bill and Sally may benefit more from paying off their debt rather than paying their tithing. Money is a contentious issue in marriages, for one. And, if one has to worry about the stress of debt and bill collectors, it's tough to be spiritual, isn't it? Never mind the fact that, if the bill collectors come and garnish the wages of Bill & Sally, then they will not be able to pay tithing at all!

The benefit, in my mind, outweighs the missed blessings that temporary suspension of tithing payments will bring. Could they just not pay, miss out on a few blessings, and then start paying later? You know, repent

Your logic is reasonable only to the extent that you believe that it is acceptable to disobey God...and that you can postone or fake repentance later...or you don't really believe in God.

Do you really think that God will excuse and accept deliberate disobidience? Do you believe that God will be mocked?

The scripture is pretty clear. Failure to pay tithing is literally robbing God. Do you really recommend stealing from God.

Any logic employed to excuse robbing of God tithing in order to finace personal comfort and protection from creditors is similar (in my opinion) to the sort of rationalizations used by the Pharisees.

If we are going to use the 'repent' later logic...why doesn't this couple simply rob a bank, swindle someone, or use some other dishonest means of getting out of debt? After all, they can repent later.

Six

[cinepro]

This came up in high priest lesson this past week. The class was divided. Here's the scenario:

Bill & Sally are in debt, and want to follow the counsel of the LDS prophets to get out of debt. However, they are in a bit of a bind. You see, Bill & Sally have a monthly budget that looks like this:

Income: $1200

Expenses (assume they are modest and can't be reduced): $1000

Tithing: $120

Debt payment: $120

Monthly balance: ($40)

The question is this: Are Bill & Sally justified in using their tithing to pay off their debt, until that debt has been eliminated? Please, no solutions like, "Pray about it", or "Bill/Sally can get a better paying job", or, "They should do <some financial trick>"... Let stick to the core issue - Will God understand if Bill & Sally use tithing money to pay debt?

H.

You left out two very important parts of the equation: what is the total debt, and what is the interest?

If they owe $100,000 at 15% interest with a $120 minimum monthly payment, that's quite different than owing $1000 at 4% interest with a $120 monthly payment.

You also don't mention if they have savings or not, or any other assets.

Ultimately, those issues don't influence the "official" answer: They should always, always pay tithing.

But if we are allowed to consider unofficial answers, it would be helpful to know just how deep of a hole they have dug for themselves.

We could also ask what the debt is for. I suspect God would be much more understanding of tithing money going towards paying off medical bills (for non-elective surgery) or temporary costs incurred from a period of unemployment, as opposed to a Land Rover or a trip to Tahiti.

[awesome0]

Learning to trust the Lord isn't about either guilt or being punished. It's very much about being blessed: 'Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].' Though I suspect you're already familiar on a certain level with this verse.

That is the old testament, law and the old testament promise. Actually in the context, I believe the tithes in question where to be shared at essence what was a giant common potluck. By combining their resources, heaven poured out blessings.

For the modern promise of tithing, read D&C 119 v 1-5. Windows of heaven?....nope. The promise is sanctification of Zion and its people.

[LDSToronto]

Your logic is reasonable only to the extent that you believe that it is acceptable to disobey God...and that you can postone or fake repentance later...or you don't really believe in God.

Do you really think that God will excuse and accept deliberate disobidience? Do you believe that God will be mocked?

The scripture is pretty clear. Failure to pay tithing is literally robbing God. Do you really recommend stealing from God.

Any logic employed to excuse robbing of God tithing in order to finace personal comfort and protection from creditors is similar (in my opinion) to the sort of rationalizations used by the Pharisees.

If we are going to use the 'repent' later logic...why doesn't this couple simply rob a bank, swindle someone, or use some other dishonest means of getting out of debt? After all, they can repent later.

Six

Let me ask - have you ever missed hometeaching one month (no matter what the tradeoff) or have you ever not held family home evening (the prophet commanded it) or have you ever not opened your mouth about the gospel (that's a biggy!) when you should have or have you ever skipped priesthood to talk in the hall (it's right in the temple recommend interview), or have you ever...... etc etc etc.

If you are endowed, then you are bound by covenant to, with exactness, never, ever shirk any duty or break any commandment, no matter what your rationalization. I'd suggest that most of us have done at least one thing that, as you say, 'mocks God' AND didn't have a good excuse at the time AND knew that we could repent of it at some point. In fact, I know that whatever sin I commit, save a sparse and unlikely couple, I can repent. To some degree, all my repentance is planned.

All repentance comes later, Six. I sure hope God accepts planned repentance, otherwise, the CK is going to be mighty empty, except for the two of us.

H.

[Bsix]

Let me ask - have you ever missed hometeaching one month (no matter what the tradeoff) or have you ever not held family home evening (the prophet commanded it) or have you ever not opened your mouth about the gospel (that's a biggy!) when you should have or have you ever skipped priesthood to talk in the hall (it's right in the temple recommend interview), or have you ever...... etc etc etc.

If you are endowed, then you are bound by covenant to, with exactness, never, ever shirk any duty or break any commandment, no matter what your rationalization. I'd suggest that most of us have done at least one thing that, as you say, 'mocks God' AND didn't have a good excuse at the time AND knew that we could repent of it at some point. In fact, I know that whatever sin I commit, save a sparse and unlikely couple, I can repent. To some degree, all my repentance is planned.

All repentance comes later, Six. I sure hope God accepts planned repentance, otherwise, the CK is going to be mighty empty, except for the two of us.

Somehow I sense that you are advocating a sort of rationalized system wherein we can pick and choose when we obey and when we do not with the freedom to repent later...not where we sin because we are tempted and fail because we are weak. In the system you propose, God is a willing participant in tolerating and allowing us to sin at will...and will let us repent later as a part of the program.

Somehow I don't see it that way.

The core of your question is whether this hypothetical couple should give in to the temptation to sin by not paying tithing. (Tithing isn't like missing a home teaching visit. It is a significant sin.)

The adversary uses all sorts of rationalizations to tempt us to sin...we can repent later...it isn't that big a deal...God will understand...secular credit is more immediate...you can catch up with tithing later...the list can go on and on.

The failure to pay sin is a sin. The hypothetical question of this thread is asking if there is a justification to sin due to adverse secular impact. I submit there is no acceptable basis upon which we should sin.

Another hypothetical question would be that if this couple were to meet with God face-to-face and ask him what they should do...I doubt that he'd tell them to skip the tithing.

Six

[LDSToronto]

Somehow I sense that you are advocating a sort of rationalized system wherein we can pick and choose when we obey and when we do not with the freedom to repent later...not where we sin because we are tempted and fail because we are weak. In the system you propose, God is a willing participant in tolerating and allowing us to sin at will...and will let us repent later as a part of the program.

Let me point you to this thread, where many an apologist rationalized the breaking of the Sabbath for any number of conditions and in any number of ways. By the time that thread was done, we'd all reasoned that we could pretty much spend on Sundays, go to football games on Sunday, eat at restaurants on Sundays, all with the idea that not only would God forgive us, he'd also approve of our behaviour.

Whenever we sin, we make rationalizations. I'm not advocating 'pick and chose', but I am suggesting that since we all know repentance is possible, no matter the sin, that all sin is entered into with at least a glimmer of hope that things will be alright down the road.

The core of your question is whether this hypothetical couple should give in to the temptation to sin by not paying tithing. (Tithing isn't like missing a home teaching visit. It is a significant sin.)

The more I experience it, the more I think Mormonism is like a big game played by 10 year old children. We've all played a complicated game with kids, or as kids, right? You know how it is, the kid explains the rules, you start playing. Suddenly, the kid introduces a new rule that kind of screws up your last move. OK, no problem, you keep playing. Then things don't go right for the kid, so a new rule is introduced that supersedes an existing rule that benefits the kid. So you play, and incite the new superseding rule, but since it benefits you, the kid suddenly renders it invalid with yet another rule. Eventually, you have a game with all kinds of rules canceling other rules out under some conditions, and other rules coming in depending on who the person is using the rule. At some point, the game becomes the rules, and who can outsmart who with their knowledge of, and creation of, rules.

So, when you tell me that 'tithing isn't like missing a home teaching visit', I get the impression that you are introducing a new rule. What I'd like, one day, if for someone to print me up a nice big wallchart of Mormonisms hierarchy of sins, and the conditions under which we can break a rule. I bet it would be a tangled mess.

Anyways, I reject the notion that missing a tithing payment is more significant a sin than missing a home teaching visit. If I miss a few tithing payments, I don't suffer. The church doesn't suffer (I mean, we've all heard the line, "God doesn't need your money to build the kingdom"), and I can get back on track shortly after. However, if I miss a home teaching visit, I'm affecting another human being's well-being. Suppose old Sister Montgomery was looking forward to my visit, and had cleaned house all day, and then I don't show up. I wonder what her state of mind would be? Would she be sad, disappointed, feel rejected, feel lonely, feel forgotten? Suppose she was having trouble with her computer, and she can't print out her genealogy for the temple or she can't answer her grandchildren's emails, and during our visit, she was going to ask me, a computer genius, to fix it so she could have those things back in her life, and have some happiness?

You see? It's hard to put the sin of missing a home teaching visit on a lower rung than missing tithing payments. At the very least, they are equal. And since we are bound by covenant to do both (pay tithing, home teaching), introducing the rule that hometeaching is less significant than tithing payments doesn't make a lot of sense. Giving in to the temptation to watch a TV program instead of doing your home teaching, and realizing that repentance is possible by doing your home teaching at some point in the future seems about the same as giving into the temptation of using tithing to pay debt, and realizing that repentance is possible by paying your tithing at some point in the future.

The adversary uses all sorts of rationalizations to tempt us to sin...we can repent later...it isn't that big a deal...God will understand...secular credit is more immediate...you can catch up with tithing later...the list can go on and on.

Wrong. Human beings use all sorts of rationalizations.

The failure to pay sin is a sin. The hypothetical question of this thread is asking if there is a justification to sin due to adverse secular impact. I submit there is no acceptable basis upon which we should sin.

Good. At least you've made a stance. Is this true for every transgression of every commandment? Because if it is, you are the first person on this forum to ever state it.

Another hypothetical question would be that if this couple were to meet with God face-to-face and ask him what they should do...I doubt that he'd tell them to skip the tithing.

I also doubt that he'd tell Bob to miss his hometeaching or purchase food at a restaurant on a Sunday, given the system of rules that you've created, yet I hear people in this forum, 'justifying a little sin' all the time.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no USU or Droopy, insisting on complete compliance to all rules at all times. What I am seeking is consistency in argument and exploration of deviation.

H.

[Jeff K.]

I consider the Lord to be the first debtee.

I would also see about renegotiating the debt with others.

I would find out how I came to the place of such debt and take steps to avoid that position in the future.

Would I use my tithing if it meant not doing so would mean losing my house (a foreclosure, not a short sell)? Possibly. But it would require considerable prayer and confirmation by both my wife and myself, and perhaps a talk to the bishop about it.

I would also seek to make up for it later.

[LDSToronto]

Would I use my tithing if it meant not doing so would mean losing my house (a foreclosure, not a short sell)? Possibly. But it would require considerable prayer and confirmation by both my wife and myself, and perhaps a talk to the bishop about it.

I would also seek to make up for it later.

Jeff, thanks for your honesty.

H.

[Zakuska]

Yes, but God's not going to send a credit collector after Bill & Sally, is he? Nor do I think the Church will collapse if they miss, say, 6 months of tithe from Bill & Sally.

On the other hand, Bill and Sally may benefit more from paying off their debt rather than paying their tithing. Money is a contentious issue in marriages, for one. And, if one has to worry about the stress of debt and bill collectors, it's tough to be spiritual, isn't it? Never mind the fact that, if the bill collectors come and garnish the wages of Bill & Sally, then they will not be able to pay tithing at all!

The benefit, in my mind, outweighs the missed blessings that temporary suspension of tithing payments will bring. Could they just not pay, miss out on a few blessings, and then start paying later? You know, repent?

H.

I think the Lord is his own dept Collector.

Mal 3

8

[LDSToronto]

I think the Lord is his own dept Collector.

Mal 3

8

[Jason]

You should both pay your tithing and do your home teaching.

Really, the best response is for Bill and Sally to ask God what He would like them to do, and then do it. It's likely that God will say "pay your tithing first," but maybe He'll ask them to do something else.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K., on 04 January 2011 - 08:51 AM, said:

Would I use my tithing if it meant not doing so would mean losing my house (a foreclosure, not a short sell)? Possibly. But it would require considerable prayer and confirmation by both my wife and myself, and perhaps a talk to the bishop about it.

I would also seek to make up for it later.

Jeff, thanks for your honesty.

H.

It brings to mind the Maccabean revolts during a period known as the Hellenization of Judea. The Greek soldiers would trail the Jews and wait until the sabbath to attack, knowing they would not break their oath regarding the sabbath. Then they would literally go in and massacre the army which would not raise a sword to defend itself on the sabbath for fear of breaking the law. This is what happens when you place action over intent or the heart of the doer.

The Maccabees rejected such a view of the Sabbath as being unworkable and would fight on the Sabbath, when attacked. That first battle must have been a suprise to the Greeks, .

I view the commandments in much the same way, to follow them as closely as possible, to adhere to them with a grateful and generous heart for what Christ has done for us. Not simply to go through the mechanics of following certain rules.

[LDS Truthseeker]

I can't believe your class was divided on this. The church makes it very clear that even if you can't pay all your bills, you are instructed to short all your bills and pay the church first. So without a question, the church must be paid before paying down debt!!!

Reference:

From the Church's website is a lesson on tithing to be taught to children and families. It comes from the lesson manual Family Home Evening Resource Book, Lesson Ideas, Tithing, 227

"Point out that you pay tithing first, and then you pay a portion of what you owe on each other bill. Talk about which areas you might be able to cut expenses in so that you can live within your budget. Paying the Lord first ensures his help and blessings in being able to budget the rest of your money successfully."

http://lds.org/hf/library/0,16866,4530-1,00.html?LibraryURL=/Curriculum/home+and+family.htm/family+home+evening+resource+book.htm/lesson+ideas.htm/tithing.htm

[Jeff K.]

Point out that you pay tithing first, and then you pay a portion of what you owe on each other bill. Talk about which areas you might be able to cut expenses in so that you can live within your budget. Paying the Lord first ensures his help and blessings in being able to budget the rest of your money successfully.

That goes to negotiating you debt, and I agree with that. But it does not speak to the idea of dire questions of losing one's home or something along those lines. I agree if your debt is too high, you should pay it on a partial basis in order to get out of debt. The statement speaks only to one scenario where debt negotiation is possible.