airport body scanners

[bluebell]

Source?

The head of TSA at our airport stated in a recent interview that their machines have absolutely no mechanism for saving an image. In fact, he said if they had to show in court that they had probable cause for detention and a more invasive search based on what the machine showed, they would be unable to prove what it showed.

Anyway, since airplane travel is not a constitutional right, those who refuse to be scanned or patted down will just have to find another way to travel, I suppose. As for me, I have no hesitation going through the body scanner, especially if it's the shortest path through security.

I think this is what's causing a lot of the confusion and tension with this issue.

There was an incident last year i believe where a famous actor from Inda went through one of these scanners and then was presented with the naked image of his body to sign later by a fan.

This was after security had proclaimed that there was no way to save or print the images that the scanners were producing and that there was no way for those looking at the images to know who's body was being scanned.

Here's an article about the incident.

I think if people knew with 100% surety that the images could not be saved or printed, and that their faces would not be shown and that those looking at the images could not ever know which body belonged to who, they would be more willing to be scanned. Clearly though, what is being said about the process isn't necessarily true, as the article shows.

[CV75]

What do you think? Do you believe these scanners violate personal privacy? Do you feel comfortable being subjected to them? How does this affect your sense of modesty?

For cross country travel, I'm thinking I'd rather take a train or drive long distances than be subjected to this, and just skip overseas travel altogether until TSA comes to their senses.

Unfortunately we've come to this for safety purposes, and I do associate it with a loss of independence in light of a new vulnerability to those who would do us more harm. Not something I'm comfortable with but would probably get used to it. I don't consider it a modesty issue since I'm not the one being immodest. On a lighter note, I recall Frank Drebin's account about his stint in prison: "After a long and generous cavity search, I reached my destination: Maximum security, home of some of the country's most violent sociopaths."

[Wiki Wonka]

This was after security had proclaimed that there was no way to save or print the images that the scanners were producing and that there was no way for those looking at the images to know who's body was being scanned.

If the machine is run by any type software, then there absolutely is a way to save data, even if it is only in some sort of hidden diagnostic mode. The engineers who developed the thing would never be able to save or examine results otherwise.

But it really doesn't matter whether or not the software includes a button to allow an image to be saved. If the image appears on a computer monitor, then all you have to do is save the screen image. Or, just take a digital camera and snap a photo of the screen. If the image is displayed anywhere at all, there is always a way to save it.

WW

[thesometimesaint]

Krose:

I'm no expert of Israeli security measures. So can't comment on them directly. But I do understand that they have intense intelligence network, and conduct direct questions of every passenger, takes about 30 seconds. It is not perfect but does seem to work better than ours.

I don't know as their procedures could translate in to the US. We are a much bigger country with a much larger population.

[Ahab]

That is what happened to me. SLC airport put one in over a year ago, to test. They randomly sent people through it, and they had me, my husband and daughter go through. We had no idea what they were doing. It was all men doing the testing! It creeps me out.

I can sympathize with you, but not empathize, because I haven't gone through it, and I don't ever plan to.

It then becomes a matter of class, those who can afford it get around it, the steerage passengers have to go through the humiliations.

Awesome.

Heh, I like your sarcasm, in the positive vein.

Sadly enough, though, it's for those reasons that politicians probably won't do anything about it, for at least a while, because they don't have to go through it.

We pay for their private planes.

[Deborah]

Aside from the modesty issue, I think the scanners are a safety issue, especially for frequent fliers and people who have had cancer and already been exposed to a great deal of radiation.

As to whether or not images can be saved, I simply don't believe they aren't. Otherwise what's the point especially if something should happen anyway. Wouldn't the feds want to review all the images and see what was missed.

On a personal note I question whether security is worth the loss of dignity and freedom? Besides which all the experts say the scanners don't improve security at all. It's all for show since our idiots in government are so afraid of profiling and insulting someone. This makes them feel like they are doing something; but how frightening toddlers and inconveniencing old people accomplishes anything I have no idea.

[thesometimesaint]

Deborah:

"It's all for show since our idiots in government are so afraid of profiling and insulting someone."

It has more to do with the good friend of former DHS head Michael Chertoff's. The one who makes the scanners.

[frankenstein]

The head of TSA at our airport stated in a recent interview that their machines have absolutely no mechanism for saving an image. In fact, he said if they had to show in court that they had probable cause for detention and a more invasive search based on what the machine showed, they would be unable to prove what it showed.

Here is the 4th as it applies to a US Citizen who has not been suspected or accused of being a terrorist:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Here is the 4th Amendment as applied to US Citizen suspected or accused of being a terrorist:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The Fed does not need to save the image because once the Fed claims you are a terrorist or in any manner connected to terrorism, YOU no longer are protected by the Constitution, you are enemy combantent upon which no law applies (thank you BYU Law School Graduates).

[thesometimesaint]

frankenstein:

The USSC has repeated affirmed that all citizens here in the US, or persons under its control, are subject to the law, and the rights guaranteed in the Constitution.

[MorningStar]

Very good question.

If I pose for playgirl mag, does that violate standards of modesty?

If I pose for a with just my shirt off "Hottest MADB posters calendar year 2010" is does that violate modesty?

If I pose for in the nude for a art class does that violate standards of modesty?

If I pose to be viewed in completely nude by the TSA (At least one image scanner has saved the images and said images were posted on the internet, the images were obtained via a FOIA request, the group that requested the images posted those images on the net, did so to prove a point, i.e. that the nude images can be saved.)

I read a article where a letter was issued by a Muslim group instructing Muslim woman to opt out of the nude image scan, and to instruct the TSA agent performing the hands on molestation, that the Agent can only touch above the neck line. I have not found a religious exemption to the nude image or molestation. What I do say with confidence, not 100%, is that I have found nothing in the Law that requires a person to complete a molestation or nude image scan. The investigation by the TSA towards the guy who refused both, is a nuisance investigation designed to scare others to not refuse.

4th Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, ..."

Benjamin Franklin:

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

The nude image only looks at what is above the skin, someone intent on committing murder and suicide at the same time, should have not problem finding a body cavity to store deadly amounts of explosives.

I have very tempted to go to the airport in just a speedo or even g-string depending on how much of my bum cheeks can legally be visible.

I'm looking forward to my next plane trip. The poor SOB who has to look at a full body scan of me will be sick for a month.

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! Too many funny comments here.

My main concern would be kids and teens being screened in such a way. As for Muslim women getting pat downs from the neck up, everyone knows the best place to hide your gun is right by your neck.

[frankenstein]

frankenstein:

The USSC has repeated affirmed that all citizens here in the US, or persons under its control, are subject to the law, and the rights guaranteed in the Constitution.

Nope.

Detainees are subject to the control of the Federal Gov. those detainees are not entitled to much. They do not even get confidentiality with their attorneys.

From the Commander and Chief a Constitutional Law Professor:

Statement made concerning military tribunals

"There may be situations in which somebody was captured in theater, is now in Guantanamo; it's very hard to piece together a chain of evidence that would meet some of the evidentiary standards that would be required in an Article III [civilian] court, but we know that this person is guilty. There's sufficient evidence to bring about a conviction."

Constitutional standard can not be met, so use a Military Tribunals where the Constitution standard do not apply.

[Deborah]

It has more to do with the good friend of former DHS head Michael Chertoff's. The one who makes the scanners.

That too. I had heard this; I'm surprised it's not being broadcast more.

[frankenstein]

That too. I had heard this; I'm surprised it's not being broadcast more.

yeah, it took less than a day for it to be known that the lobbist for Gardasil, was a close friend and former adviser to gov. Perry who mandated that all females of certain ages get the gardasil injection.

[katherine the great]

I'm okay with the body scanner because the person viewing the images is in a separate place and they can't even see our faces. I'll opt for that rather than an invasive pat down. I would like to know though how it was possible for the guy to smuggle a bomb past the metal detectors in his underwear when the quarter in my pocket or the half inch of metal on my belt sets it off.

[Zakuska]

I have a confession to make... I have to admit that as an adolecent in Jr high. I fantasized a couple of times about making one of these scanners and using it on the Chear leading squad.

:blush:

1 Jn. 1: 9

9 If we ^aconfess our sins, he is faithful and ^bjust to ^cforgive us our sins, and to ^dcleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[LeSellers]

Did I miss the law being passed that required people to travel via airplane?

Which has nothing at all to do with the issue at hand.

People have the right to travel in the most convenient mode they can afford. Governmental intrusion into this matter between private parties is wholly unjustified.

If an airline decides to fly its aircraft with a fully armed passenger cabin, it ought to be permitted (ugh! in this context, I hate that word

[mercyngrace]

I have a confession to make... I have to admit that as an adolecent in Jr high. I fantasized a couple of times about making having one of these scanners and using it on the Chear leading squad.

:blush:

I think that's why my brother ordered the X-ray glasses from the back page of the Archie comics.

Maybe the TSA is populated with people who got ripped off by the ACME gag companies from the comic book ad page and they are finally exacting their revenge. Bwaahaahaa!

[Zakuska]

People have the right to travel in the most convenient mode they can afford. Governmental intrusion into this matter between private parties is wholly unjustified.

But this is a double edged sword.

What do the people say when a plane goes down or is highjacked?

Yep.. the blame goes to the governemnt for NOT doing anything.

[LeSellers]

The head of TSA at our airport stated in a recent interview that their machines have absolutely no mechanism for saving an image. In fact, he said if they had to show in court that they had probable cause for detention and a more invasive search based on what the machine showed, they would be unable to prove what it showed.

I didn't think it was the TSA. It was other fed agencies that stored the images.

But, if, as the TSA agent said, the machines are incapable of storing the images, then no agency should be able to store them.

The TSA guy lied. And, those images are on line. I have absolutely no faith in the federal government (nor any other level, either). It operates to grow its own power, and to do that, they must destroy our freedoms.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

But this is a double edged sword.

What do the people say when a plane goes down or is highjacked?

Yep.. the blame goes to the governemnt for NOT doing anything.

They who would do so are idiots.

We do not blame the government when someone slides off the highway in a tour bus, yet the government owns the road, and should actually be responsible for keeping that bus on track. We do not blame the state for train derailments (even when its a government-owned AMTRAK train).

It's only because we have let the government take this responsibility from us (to protect ourselves) that we expect government to continue to do so. And it's a very bad expectation: government does not do it well at all.

Lehi

[Ahab]

I think that's why my brother ordered the X-ray glasses from the back page of the Archie comics.

Maybe the TSA is populated with people who got ripped off by the ACME gag companies from the comic book ad page and they are finally exacting their revenge. Bwaahaahaa!

Priceless, especially since it's coming from you, MnG. What a hooter, er, uh, I mean hoot (that's slang for a joke, right?)

[mercyngrace]

Priceless, especially since it's coming from you, MnG. What a hooter, er, uh, I mean hoot (that's slang for a joke, right?)

Hey! I have an amazing funny bone. I just won't let you scan it and you can only feel it from the neck up.

* For the humor impaired or those who haven't read this thread in its entirety, this is a reference to Frankenstein's statement that Muslim women are being told to refuse the TSA body scanners and pat downs below the neck.

[AddamS]

Which has nothing at all to do with the issue at hand.

People have the right to travel in the most convenient mode they can afford. Governmental intrusion into this matter between private parties is wholly unjustified.

If an airline decides to fly its aircraft with a fully armed passenger cabin, it ought to be permitted (ugh! in this context, I hate that word

[bluebell]

Which has nothing at all to do with the issue at hand.

People have the right to travel in the most convenient mode they can afford. Governmental intrusion into this matter between private parties is wholly unjustified.

If an airline decides to fly its aircraft with a fully armed passenger cabin, it ought to be permitted (ugh! in this context, I hate that word

[ERayR]

Because terrorists have used planes as weapons to kill and destroy those not actually on the plane, who is allowed in the air is not just the business of who's in the airplane.

I don't necessarily agree with what the government does sometimes in the name of 'safety' but i also understand that who goes up in an airplane can lead to thousands of deaths on the ground, so it's in the governments interest to regulate it.

That being said if these measures actually made it safer to fly there might be some vlue in them. However, the things that would really make it safer to fly are not being done. As has previously been pointed out all we really need to do is take training from Isreal.