Another clumsey run at Grace

[Palerider]

O.K. I know this is somewhat extended but I didn't know how to cut it back and still make my point...

I have difficulty with the phrasing in 2 Nephi 25:23. It is one of the reasons I don

[volgadon]

Return to me, and I will return unto you, in the words of a classic midrash on repentance. Off to bed, more tomorow, I hope.

[Anakin7]

For the context please read starting with The Beginning of Second Nephi 25 and read through the ending of Second Nephi 25. Remember a text without context is s pre-text.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI Knight

[Thunderfire]

I have difficulty with the phrasing in 2 Nephi 25:23. It is one of the reasons I don

[TAO]

O.K. I know this is somewhat extended but I didn't know how to cut it back and still make my point...

Tis all right, we shall all bear through with patience, that we will =).

I have difficulty with the phrasing in 2 Nephi 25:23. It is one of the reasons I don

[Glenn101]

I am not going to reply to every little point. It would be, well pointless.

There are at least two ways to look at that "all that we can do phrase". One is the way palerider has voiced. However if you look at it from the aspect that it after we have lived this life, repented of all of our sins, etc. we still could not raise ourselves from the dead or forgive ourselves of the sins we have committed. We are totally dependent on Grace for those things. No amount of good works will save us. Only the Grace of Jesus Christ through the atonement will save us.

God knows that we will not do all that we can do. Else we would none need a Savior. We are expected to progress in this life and prepare to meet God. That is the part that we can do. If we do not make adequate preparations, we will not attain exaltation. That is our "works" part. There are works we must do to avail ourselves fully of the Atonement. If we do not do those works, we will still be forgiven of the sins we committed, if baptized by one holding the authority to do so, and not have to pay the price ourselves, but we may still wind up in a lesser kingdom if we are not diligent enough.

Glenn

[stemelbow]

That's why a correct understanding of Grace is so critical and yet most times lost on Mormons.

[CV75]

one of the reasons I don

[bluebell]

All we can do is repent and have faith in Christ.

Therefore the verse is saying, we are saved by grace after we repent and have faith in Christ. It is outlining how we becoming justified before God, how we gain a covenant relationship with Christ which allows us access to His grace.

[David T]

This is a concept that has been misunderstood and overcomplicated, even by Church leaders in the past.

In the BoM context, 'all we can do' is exercise Faith in the Savior, repent towards Him, and choose to enter into Covenant with Him. As long as we actively desire to remain in that Covenant, grace will take over in terms of Salvation.

The BoM is concerned with Justification and Sanctification - not Exaltation.

EDIT: Yes, what bluebell said

[Palerider]

For the context please read starting with The Beginning of Second Nephi 25 and read through the ending of Second Nephi 25. Remember a text without context is s pre-text.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI Knight

Not seeing immediately how context affects this writing or it's meaning. I've read this many times before. Feel free to expand if you wish.

[Palerider]

There are many reasons why people believe the Book of Mormon to be true as there are many who discount it. As example, just a few verses prior to the one listed, Nephi records the following:

"For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah will come in six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem. And according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God..."

Why would Nephi list the Greek equivalent "Jesus" and title "Christ" when Jesus would have been named Yeshua ben Joseph? Was this Greek name really on the plates being translated or did Joseph Smith merely translate into our modern day language? The text in question is nothing compared to this issue many cannot get past.

Nephi is telling us that he labors diligently to write, that our children may be persuaded to believe in Jesus becoming reconciled to God. Then after all we can do we are still saved by grace because nothing we can do will ever be enough. It's the wording which gets confusing at times because we simple do not speak this way in our day and age.

Just thought I would stir the pot and see where this goes!

as I said, "it is one of the reasons".

[Palerider]

Tis all right, we shall all bear through with patience, that we will =).

I think it more refers to being earnest in the end. Being true, and of the desire to do your best. You've failed in the past, but you have the desire of asking for forgiveness, and all your sins will vanish by grace, even the ones you have forgotten, simply because you have the righteous desire in your heart at this time.

It's similar to how there is nearly always a way to repent of your sins, no matter how far you've fallen (exception for Sons of Perdition, certain murderers); as long as you come to the spirit of asking for forgiveness by the end of your days, you will not be faulted for what you did.

Remember these verses:

Your best will ALWAYS be good enough for the Lord. Ultimate sacrifice brings upon the ultimate reward. The Lord isn't just measuring whether you 'do X' or 'do Y', he's measuring the level of personal commitment you have to him. People who have more personal commitment will be more rewarded in the long run.

But what about my "not so best". You're proving my point regarding how Mormons view this concept.

Thus why it's important to stay humble, ask for forgiveness, and try again. If you try again, continuously for the rest of your life, you have done the best you can do. And you will be rewarded greatly for it.

Grace is applied when you ask for forgiveness. If one doesn't have a spirit of asking for forgiveness, can Christ forgive you for sins you didn't ask for forgiveness for? On the other hand, if you have the spirit of repentance, isn't it true that Christ' won't fault you for things you do not remember?

I think Grace is applied even when we don't. Ezra proves this. At some point repentence is neccessary, but even then Grace is ongoing even when we don't do "all we can do"

The interpretation of the verse is simply, if you go through life, and die, with a spirit of repentance, you will be forgiven for things that you could not remember - because if you remembered them, you would immediately ask for forgiveness. Yet those who don't, wouldn't, thus their sins aren't saved through grace.

However, only, if by the end (for some people, who didn't get the oppurtunity, that will be in the next life), you repent of your sins, and are truly humble.

Which is why he forgives those who learn. For those who don't however, the story is much more bleak, because they aren't humble enough to ask for the forgiveness required.

Time to God is different than time is to us, is it not? How long the man must wait is not said, merely that it is to day, in the Lords' time. I suspect when the list of names comes, his will be on there, though it seems a mere parchment it will contain the glory of billions. That man is still waiting for that moment when the list of names will come down - he knows when that moment will be, and he savors for it. And that day, the same day of the death of Christ, will that man join him in spirit paradise, till the judgment comes.

Bringing forth fruit and good works are the result of faith, if one has them not, does one truly have faith?

Ask the thief on the cross. I think you're oversimplifying this principle.

Works are works as viewed by God. Obeying God's commandments is doing works. Praying is doing works. You know - even asking for forgiveness is in a way, doing works.

Because Christ "was ^awounded for our ^btransgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his ^cstripes we are ^dhealed." (Isaiah 53:5)

Forgiveness is Christ's to give - he was the one who suffered - he decides how it is distributed.

The effort made by works isn't what saves us - it is merely something our Lord expects of us, if we wish to inherit more of his kingdom.

Kind of supporting what I've already said here............

However, without a willingness to do work, to follow Christ, to sacrifice yourself for him, how can one say one has faith? Faith doesn't exist without action. And without faith, how can you truly and genuinely ask for forgiveness? You can't.

Why does one worry of 'spiritual accomplishment'? There is no such thing as spiritual accomplishment that means anything in the eyes of men. Accomplishment in the eyes of God is what matters, and that is not bragged of.

I disagree - we have the power to effect a change in Eternity, simply be exerting our ability of agency in a positive manner. And I can assure you that there is no thing God will love more than you, with your own agency, turning your heart towards him. Because that makes all the difference. By using the grace Christ has mercifully given us, when we use our agency to look towards God, Eternity is changed, never to be the same again.

Re-stating my point here....

[TAO]

But what about my "not so best". You're proving my point regarding how Mormons view this concept.

Are you really showing faith; are you really converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ if you don't have the essential spirit of repentance? Not from my experiences, no you aren't. You 'do your best' by having a spirit of repentance.

I think Grace is applied even when we don't. Ezra proves this. At some point repentence is neccessary, but even then Grace is ongoing even when we don't do "all we can do"

Read the following verse of Ezra.

13 And after all that is come upon us for our ^aevil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our ^biniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this; UAdd a Note

14 Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping?

These people already have a spirit of repentance. Thus why grace can fall upon them. But if they broke the commandments, and were not obedient, and lost the spirit of repentance, would they be able to be saved through grace? No. Only through justice. Thus "wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping."

Ask the thief on the cross. I think you're oversimplifying this principle.

Well let me ask you, had the theif been allowed to live longer, with this spirit of repentance, would he have started doing good works? Yes. And Christ says that is most certainly worthy of grace. Read the following:

32 For behold, this ^alife is the time for men to ^bprepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of ^cthis life is the day for men to perform their ^dlabors. UAdd a Note

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many ^awitnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not ^bprocrastinate the day of your ^crepentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the ^dnight of ^edarkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful ^acrisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth ^bpossess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

*bold and underlines were added by me*

If the thief went out with an earnest spirit of forgiveness, he has succeeded, and Christ will welcome him home.

Kind of supporting what I've already said here............

Nevertheless, your assumption that a spirit of repentance; a spirit of faith, can exist without action is wrong. It drives us to action. It drives us to works. No man who has a spirit of repentance, and a spirit of faith will not be driven to works. It is a cause with a guaranteed effect. There is no such thing as a spirit of repentance and faith - which is what is needed to have grace apply to us - without a spirit of doing good works accompanying it.

[BCSpace]

I have difficulty with the phrasing in 2 Nephi 25:23. It is one of the reasons I don

[volgadon]

(actually I do, but it has to do with the church of the Devil to which all nonLDS belong).

Nonsense.

[David T]

(actually I do, but it has to do with the church of the Devil to which all nonLDS belong).

Nonsense.

I second volgadon's declaration of 'nonsense'.

[bluebell]

Nonsense.

I have to add my agreement to Volgadon here. There are members of the LDS church who are actually members of the church of the devil and there are non-lds who are members of the Church of the Lamb. Which ever denomination holds your membership records does not determine where your heart is.

[Palerider]

Nonsense.

Thankyou Crazy! Was wondering if any LDS was going to let that stand.............

[LeSellers]

[Palerider]

This is a concept that has been misunderstood and overcomplicated, even by Church leaders in the past.

In the BoM context, 'all we can do' is exercise Faith in the Savior, repent towards Him, and choose to enter into Covenant with Him. As long as we actively desire to remain in that Covenant, grace will take over in terms of Salvation.

The BoM is concerned with Justification and Sanctification - not Exaltation.

EDIT: Yes, what bluebell said

Hey Nack,

It seems some of the subtlties in the original post were lost on numerous respondents here. Probably tearing through it in their rush to correct this "poor lost soul".

I find it somewhat ironic though that in chapter 25 of 2 Nephi, there are no less than three references by Nephi that he is being very plain in his speech and is giving this to us in a way that "cannot be mis-understood".

So, a question: What good is it to have leadership who don't get this stuff right in the first place and have to backtrack fairly frequently in order to get their own doctrine straight, so they can inform the general membership of a different way of viewing not only the scripture but also the previous leadership who were......"slightly off course"?

In another thread regarding how doctrine is determined, one of the posters pointed out that even Christ had to learn His mission over time and grow in Grace. He asked me to grant the church leadership the same "room for movement" because they are human. My response was that I agreed with him in this respect: That Christ did have to learn over time but that He would never have made the mistake of declaring a doctrine that He would have had to go back and amend because He got it wrong.

I don't see this as a difficult concept for us regular humans (read apostles) either if we actually have the will and mind of the Lord (direct contact) as our source for truth. It isn't difficult......, "If you have the mind of the Lord, speak authoritatively..........if you don't, stay quiet until you do".

I thought that this was actually one of the things that the restoration was supposed to accomplish; to clear up doctrine. And yet I see the waters still being muddied even inside the church between leaders. Makes one wonder...................

[Sky]

Let us not forget that (almost) everyone

[CV75]

I thought that this was actually one of the things that the restoration was supposed to accomplish; to clear up doctrine.

It is; see 3 Nephi 11, especially verses 28 - 40. This is Christ's doctrine, and all the other doctrines stem from this. See also 2 Nephi 31: and 32:4-6, which also lay out the doctrine of Christ. This is crystal clear!

[David T]

Hey Nack,

It seems some of the subtlties in the original post were lost on numerous respondants here. Probably tearing through it in their rush to correct this "poor lost soul".

I find it somewhat ironic though that in chapter 25 of 2 Nephi, there are no less than three references by Nephi that he is being very plain in his speech and is giving this to us in a way that "cannot be mis-understood".

So, a question: What good is it to have leadership who don't get this stuff right in the first place and have to backtrack fairly frequently in order to get their own doctrine straight, so they can inform the general membership of a different way of viewing not only the scripture but also the previous leadership who were......"slightly off course"?

In another thread regarding how doctrine is determined, one of the posters pointed out that even Christ had to learn His mission over time and grow in Grace. He asked me to grant the church leadership the same "room for movement" because they are human. My response was that I agreed with him in this respect: That Christ did have to learn over time but that He would never have made the mistake of declaring a doctrine that He would have had to go back and amend because He got it wrong.

I don't see this as a difficult concept for us regular humans (read apostles) either if we actually have the will and mind of the Lord (direct contact) as our source for truth. It isn't difficult......, "If you have the mind of the Lord, speak authoritatively..........if you don't, stay quiet until you do".

I thought that this was actually one of the things that the restoration was supposed to accomplish; to clear up doctrine. And yet I see the waters still being muddied even inside the church between leaders. Makes one wonder...................

It is my understanding that the Restored Church is going through the same process we all need to go through - the period of the Restoration itself began with a Rebirth (Justification), and then continues in a lifelong process of Sanctification (Perfection). It appears that with each generation, more speculative doctrinal 'chaff' is removed, and the pure principles and practices are left to shine even brighter, and plainer. In its recent publications, the Church has shown that it is trying hard to do this, by degrees. The Bride isn't perfect yet, but I'm confident She will be by the time the Bridegroom arrives. As we look at the work accomplished by the last several presidents of the Church, we can see a distinct pattern of perfection and preparation:

a) the 1978 Revelation on Priesthood fasciliated by President Kimball, which reversed what I truly believe was an erroneous practice built upon incorrect, uncharitable, and racist traditions

b) President Benson's cry to return emphasis to the pure doctrines of the Book of Mormon, and to beware of Pride.

c) President Hunter's focus on inviting all members to prepare for the Temple

d) The unprecedented spreading of Temples around the World by President Hinckley, giving access to those blessings and teachings to more individuals and families than in the History of the Church

e) The emphasis on charity and compassion and general practical Christian Living, specifically focusing on urgency in rescuing the individual by President Monson

The work is clearly moving forward. And I have no reference to membership numbers.

[Palerider]

Let us not forget that (almost) everyone