Another clumsey run at Grace

[David T]

Sky,

I have read the D&C many times and am very familiar with Mormon concepts of exaltation.

If there were any gift that we would actually come close to "deserving" it would be the ressurection. Death came about because of Adam's transgression not ours. It would only be "fair" to restore our bodies to us. That would be "Justice", which is not Grace.

If I'm not mistaken, each and every one of us made a specific choice to fall from our immortal condition and enter into mortal bodies. Whatever Adam may or may not have done, we chose to enter into these conditions.

[Palerider]

It is; see 3 Nephi 11, especially verses 28 - 40. This is Christ's doctrine, and all the other doctrines stem from this. See also 2 Nephi 31: and 32:4-6, which also lay out the doctrine of Christ. This is crystal clear!

Sorry CV75, But I don't see this as being in your favor. This is nothing more than a reiteration of what is already contained in the New Testament. So it makes the BoM redundant...................

[Palerider]

If I'm not mistaken, each and every one of us made a specific choice to fall from our immortal condition and enter into mortal bodies. Whatever Adam may or may not have done, we chose to enter into these conditions.

And would that not have been an informed choice? The promise given of Justice and Grace?

[Palerider]

We keep hearing this, but no one has shown us that this "definition" is scriptural.

In the definition below, notice that your connotation is a special instance, and that theologians (among whom only Paul could be reasonably numbered, and that solely by virtue of his Jewish training) created this one out of thin air because the Bible is silent on the matter, just as it is about the definition of "Christian".

Notice that in 1897, even theologians did not use the term as you insist on it.

Therefore, I Call For References that "grace" is "an unmerited gift".

Now, that said, we Saints do not dispute that when Christ atoned for our sins, and He applies that Atonement, we do not merit this gift and this position is "official" doctrine. So the implication, that we Saints "earn" our way into heaven is false on its face. Nonetheless, it is equally false to assume that Jesus will apply the Atonement willy-nilly to anyone who cries out for it. In scriptures, biblical as well as modern, are filled with commandments regarding obedience and repentance. If one does not repent, which is easily within everyone's power, He will not apply the Atonement, and the gift of grace, merited or not, will have no effect on on that person.

Lehi

Hey LeSellers,

I would refer you to the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

Something to keep in mind as you read might be that in the Jewish tradition the "Best Robe" indeed represents the chief garment of the home and the heirship of the Father (Royalty). The "Ring" is representative of the family authority and nothing of consequence was done without it's seal. Also those who are captive have their shoes taken from them and those who have their liberty restored have their shoes returned to them.

Here is an excerpt from a talk given by Bro. Holland regarding the Prodigal and his return and the reaction of his brother.

" This son is not so much angry that the other has come home as he is angry that his parents are so happy about it. Feeling unappreciated and perhaps more than a little self-pity, this dutiful son

[LeSellers]

Hey LeSellers,

Please, call me "Lehi", as my mother-in-law does, and as Presidents Carter and Clinton did. It's the name on my birth certificate (which is readily available in the Salt Lake County Bureau of Vital Statistics, unlike that of others who have used a variety of names) and my Army commission and retirement orders.

I would refer you to the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

...

And the returning son defines for us the type of Grace the Father is about to bring forth in his mercy:

...

In other words, "I don't deserve anything, just let me come and be with you" The Father's mercy says everything......

Oh, as I said, we Saints agree that the grace is not merited, we do not earn our salvation. But, please note the emphasis in your statement above: the son came back. Without his returning, there would have been no grace.

Lehi

[David T]

Please, call me "Lehi", as my mother-in-law does, and as Presidents Carter and Clinton did. It's the name on my birth certificate (which is readily available in the Salt Lake County Bureau of Vital Statistics, unlike that of others who have used a variety of names) and my Army commission and retirement orders.

Name dropper

[CV75]

This [3 Nephi 11, especially verses 28 - 40 and 2 Nephi 31: and 32:4-6] is nothing more than a reiteration of what is already contained in the New Testament. So it makes the BoM redundant...

The doctrine of Christ as documented in the Book of Mormon, which you correctly observe is "redundant" to the New Testament, shows that specific works (repentance and baptism being the most obvious) are associated with doctrine of Christ. The association of these works with grace is also as evident in the Book or Mormon as it is in the New Testament. With its so-called redundancy, the Book of Mormon's role in the Restoration clarifies these doctrines while providing another witness of Jesus Christ.

[Palerider]

Please, call me "Lehi", as my mother-in-law does, and as Presidents Carter and Clinton did. It's the name on my birth certificate (which is readily available in the Salt Lake County Bureau of Vital Statistics, unlike that of others who have used a variety of names) and my Army commission and retirement orders.

Oh, as I said, we Saints agree that the grace is not merited, we do not earn our salvation. But, please note the emphasis in your statement above: the son came back. Without his returning, there would have been no grace.

Lehi

Hi Lehi,

You old name dropper you! Never doubted your statistical legitimacy.....and sorry for not picking up on the "Lehi" I simply saw the webhandle.

And as far as the son coming back....aren't we glad he did.

I am puzzled by your two statements though:

"Therefore, I Call For References that "grace" is "an unmerited gift"."

"Oh, as I said, we Saints agree that the grace is not merited."

[Palerider]

The doctrine of Christ as documented in the Book of Mormon, which you correctly observe is "redundant" to the New Testament, shows that specific works (repentance and baptism being the most obvious) are associated with doctrine of Christ. The association of these works with grace is also as evident in the Book or Mormon as it is in the New Testament. With its so-called redundancy, the Book of Mormon's role in the Restoration clarifies these doctrines while providing another witness of Jesus Christ.

I don't see it as a clarification, just a reiteration. And I agree in principle that the BoM provides a witness of Christ, just as do the stories of C.S. Lewis..........One of my favorite Christian authors.

[LeSellers]

I am puzzled by your two statements though:

"Therefore, I Call For References that "grace" is "an unmerited gift"."

"Oh, as I said, we Saints agree that the grace is not merited."

On the one hand, I cannot find (except in special pleadings) any foundation for the "grace is an unmerited gift" definition. So I expect those who make that assertion to be able to back it up.

On the other hand, whatever the definition of grace, we know that only grace saves us, even after all we can do. We do not earn it, we do not merit it. We depend wholly on grace (or, better, the Atonement of Christ) for salvation and exaltation. No one can live a perfect life (and even if he could, no one has, save Jesus alone, so he's starting out in a hole, and cannot get out himself), so we all depend on Him and His work on our behalf.

The first is a technical issue, the second a pragmatic, soterological one.

Lehi

[CV75]

I don't see it as a clarification, just a reiteration. And I agree in principle that the BoM provides a witness of Christ, just as do the stories of C.S. Lewis..........One of my favorite Christian authors.

Since your last two posts about my last two posts about GRACE haven't countered anything I've said about GRACE, then you must agree with me and are compensating by getting off-subject by trash-talking the Book of Mormon instead!

[Palerider]

On the one hand, I cannot find (except in special pleadings) any foundation for the "grace is an unmerited gift" definition. So I expect those who make that assertion to be able to back it up.

On the other hand, whatever the definition of grace, we know that only grace saves us, even after all we can do. We do not earn it, we do not merit it. We depend wholly on grace (or, better, the Atonement of Christ) for salvation and exaltation. No one can live a perfect life (and even if he could, no one has, save Jesus alone, so he's starting out in a hole, and cannot get out himself), so we all depend on Him and His work on our behalf.

The first is a technical issue, the second a pragmatic, soterological one.

Lehi

So let me get this straight....You are basiclly asking me to "back up" (which I did) a principle that you already agree with and believe in....which you claim cannot be "backed up"......but you still believe in it....

O.K.........Pancakes anyone?

[Palerider]

Since your last two posts about my last two posts about GRACE haven't countered anything I've said about GRACE, then you must agree with me and are compensating by getting off-subject by trash-talking the Book of Mormon instead!

CV75,

If you had read the initial post with a little more care you would have seen that I have no problem with works being associated with the doctrine of Christ. It is in fact the BoM phraseology of receiving Grace only "after all we can do" which I find troubling and un-scriptural. It actually goes beyond what James is saying when he states "faith without works is dead".

Why? Because even James doesn't define the level of performance one must achieve to merit Grace. Inherent in the phrase "all we can do" is the threat that if one performs at less than peak capacity in his/her spiritual struggle or in fulfilling religious responsibilities they will not merit Grace. And ironically it is that very fact, that we don't always perform at our best, that neccesitates the operation of Grace.

In the past 40 years or so, I have seen the church's attitude and doctrinal approach to Grace change significantly, and that earlier approach (which was somewhat derisive of Grace) was informed heavily by this scripture that we are discussing. Grace in those days was linked almost excusively to universal resurrection.

If one wants to interpret it in another manner, as some have on this thread, that's fine but It remains a phrase that creates a false impression of how the actual principle of Grace operates. It shouldn't be there and that is a red flag for me,(among many others).

[Anakin7]

Not seeing immediately how context affects this writing or it's meaning. I've read this many times before. Feel free to expand if you wish.

Once again please read the the context starting with Chapter 25 verse 1 "Through" verse 30. It clearly shows what the "all we can do" is referring to. My primary 10 year olds I taught years ago could grasp and understand the message. Perhaps you should obtain 1-6 LDS Church Institute manuals, commentaries and read what they teach concerning the context of 2 Nephi 25:23. Do some Homework. You are seeing but see not.. See also Alma 24:11 for the same phraseology, and see what "all we can do" means in that context as well.

May True Grace Be With You

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Anakin7]

It is not True LDS Doctrine/Teaching/ Thought/Practice/Walk that we "Merit" Grace, it is a free gift that one must freely grasp and hold on to to stay in The Covenant of Grace [ "All we can do" in the Christianized update understanding of that statement] so we may be Saved/Exhalted.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[CV75]

It is in fact the BoM phraseology of receiving Grace only "after all we can do" which I find troubling and un-scriptural.

Inherent in the phrase "all we can do" is the threat that if one performs at less than peak capacity in his/her spiritual struggle or in fulfilling religious responsibilities they will not merit Grace.

In the past 40 years or so, I have seen the church's attitude and doctrinal approach to Grace change...

It remains a phrase that creates a false impression of how the actual principle of Grace operates. It shouldn't be there and that is a red flag for me,(among many others).

I've been a convert for 35 years and haven't seen a change in the Church attitude and doctrinal approach so much as I have seen a change in mine and my understanding of what is being taught by our Church leaders--familial/local/popular church culture aside. I have found that those enmeshed in or founded on familial/local/popular church culture are most likely to fall victim to false criticisms of such. If many have misunderstood or misapplied the scriptures, it is largely their own doing, not the Church's.

Not every verse of scripture is a compendium of all ideas associated with a particular principle; it must be read with other scripture verses that have been written about that topic as well. How many verses of scripture contain a phrase that allegedly creates a false impression of how the actual principle of grace (or any other principle) operates? The scripture does not create a false impression; the reader does this and attributes it to the phrase.

2 Nephi 10: 24 clearly states that it is only through grace that we are saved:

[Calm]

[LeSellers]

So let me get this straight....You are basiclly asking me to "back up" (which I did) a principle that you already agree with and believe in....which you claim cannot be "backed up"......but you still believe in it....

No.

You made the statement that grace is an unmerited gift by definition. I'm trying to discover the source for this definition because it is not in scripture.

The fact that I believe that grace is unmerited is an entirely different question. God can give unmerited gifts as He chooses, but His giving some does not mean all gifts are unmerited.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

It is in fact the BoM phraseology of receiving Grace only "after all we can do" which I find troubling and un-scriptural.

So, where does the Book of Mormon say that we receive grace only after all we can do?

As I read 2 Nephi 25:23, it says something very different.

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

My interpretation is "it is by grace that we are saved even after all that we can do."

To insert "only" here is a violent misreading.

Lehi

[Palerider]

So, where does the Book of Mormon say that we receive grace only after all we can do?

As I read 2 Nephi 25:23, it says something very different.

My interpretation is "it is by grace that we are saved even after all that we can do."

To insert "only" here is a violent misreading.

Lehi

Hey Lehi,

Admittedly the "only" is implicit in "After all" . It designates a timeframe which carries a finite point of reference. I believe Brigham saw it this way as well.

[Palerider]

I've been a convert for 35 years and haven't seen a change in the Church attitude and doctrinal approach so much as I have seen a change in mine and my understanding of what is being taught by our Church leaders--familial/local/popular church culture aside. I have found that those enmeshed in or founded on familial/local/popular church culture are most likely to fall victim to false criticisms of such. If many have misunderstood or misapplied the scriptures, it is largely their own doing, not the Church's.

Not every verse of scripture is a compendium of all ideas associated with a particular principle; it must be read with other scripture verses that have been written about that topic as well. How many verses of scripture contain a phrase that allegedly creates a false impression of how the actual principle of grace (or any other principle) operates? The scripture does not create a false impression; the reader does this and attributes it to the phrase.

2 Nephi 10: 24 clearly states that it is only through grace that we are saved:

[CV75]

it was cultural but not just familial/local/popular. And it is different now.

A quote from Pres. Kimball's "Miracle of Forgiveness":

"It may be well to say a word about the idea of salvation by faith alone. Some people not of our Church like to quote, in support of that concept, the following words of Paul: 'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.' (Eph. 2:8-9.)".... "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation."

Obviously from Bro. Kimball's statement, he has not distinguished between "faith alone" and "grace alone"

If by "cultural" you mean church-wide, I don't recall it being that way where I lived and served a mission. I will say that where people needed motivation, reminders of the covenants of doing all we can and examples of sacrifice and consecration and the blessings thereof were most helpful, and not always unnecessarily interspersed with references to grace.

RE: Elder Kimball's book, it is true that "belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation" is a false doctrine. He does not have to distinguish between "faith alone" and "grace alone" because they are equally false for the purposes of applying the principles of faith and grace to the topic of repentance as treated throughout the whole book. The difference between "saved alone by grace" and "saved only by grace" is that "saved alone by grace" requires nothing more than "passive faith" (an oxymoron; belief, if even that) and disregards the rest of doctrine of Christ (even faith); and that "saved only by grace" appropriately places the role of grace at the foundation of the Gospel, upon which the doctrine of Christ is based (faith and the specified works). This is why "faith alone" is as false as "grace alone."

[Anakin7]

Once again please read the the context starting with Chapter 25 verse 1 "Through" verse 30. It clearly shows what the "all we can do" is referring to. My primary 10 year olds I taught years ago could grasp and understand the message. Perhaps you should obtain 1-6 LDS Church Institute manuals, commentaries and read what they teach concerning the context of 2 Nephi 25:23. Do some Homework. You are seeing but see not.. See also Alma 24:11 for the same phraseology, and see what "all we can do" means in that context as well.

May True Grace Be With You

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Repost

[Anakin7]

It is not True LDS Doctrine/Teaching/ Thought/Practice/Walk that we "Merit" Grace, it is a free gift that one must freely grasp and hold on to to stay in The Covenant of Grace [ "All we can do" in the Christianized update understanding of that statement] so we may be Saved/Exhalted.

In His Debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Repost

[Anakin7]

If by "cultural" you mean church-wide, I don't recall it being that way where I lived and served a mission. I will say that where people needed motivation, reminders of the covenants of doing all we can and examples of sacrifice and consecration and the blessings thereof were most helpful, and not always unnecessarily interspersed with references to grace.

RE: Elder Kimball's book, it is true that "belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation" is a false doctrine. He does not have to distinguish between "faith alone" and "grace alone" because they are equally false for the purposes of applying the principles of faith and grace to the topic of repentance as treated throughout the whole book. The difference between "saved alone by grace" and "saved only by grace" is that "saved alone by grace" requires nothing more than "passive faith" (an oxymoron; belief, if even that) and disregards the rest of doctrine of Christ (even faith); and that "saved only by grace" appropriately places the role of grace at the foundation of the Gospel, upon which the doctrine of Christ is based (faith and the specified works). This is why "faith alone" is as false as "grace alone."

Saved by Grace alone is as false as Faith Alone IF you have a not a True undrstanding of that Salvation Soteriological Form/Model.

Salvation Is In Jesus Christ The Person

Anakin7

LDS JEDI KNIGHT