Joseph's view about Cumorah

[Ceeboo]

You misquoted...that wasn't Brandt who said that, it was AtticusFinch.

Edited to add: Here's the original - Post Link. For some reason AF refuses to make the proper use of the quote/reply function on this board, so he embeds his quotes inside someone else's.

Indeed ttribe (Thank you and I stand corrected)

Correction: Atticus, my beloved Catholic brother, you are a poopy head!

Sorry Brant (Ceeboo doesn't really think all you LDS folks are poopy heads)

Why do I get SOOOO confused with who is typing with Atticus' posts? (Maybe it's the Jack Daniels)

Thanks again ttribe.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[ttribe]

Thanks again ttribe.

Yep.

[Pahoran]

Atticus,

you equivocated:

I have never said they need to be inerrant in all topics. Your comment is a red herring. This is not ALL topics, but a topic on the Book of mormon and, if the book is true, God. Prophets should not be wrong on THOSE topics. God says He is not a God of confusion, but your church is nothing BUT confusion.

Geographical minutiae are not a topic about "God."

As I have no doubt you are intelligent enough to realise.

You need to come to grips with the fact that this is not your usual bully pulpit. Those who participate here are not ignorant Catholics eager to swallow anything at all that might excuse them from taking the Restoration of the Gospel seriously.

And if someone contradicts you, you can't then log in in your moderator persona and ping them.

Yeah....being correct on issues regarding God must be an odd idea for Mormon prophets

There are no "issues regarding God" anywhere in view.

As you perfectly well know.

Regards,

Pahoran

[AtticusFinch]

> Atticus Finch, You are the antithesis of your pseudonym. With Sevenbak I have debated many times and we still disagree with each other (mainly on the location of the final battle location of the BofM), but we respect each others view points. However I find conversation and dialogue with you impossible if not futile. therefore this will be my only response to you.

PS could you use the quotation tool and write your replies outside of the quotes it makes it confusing; for example to those who think Brant said;

"God says He is not a God of confusion, but your church is nothing BUT confusion." which was you, not Brant.

giving Ceeboo a hard time

Would you please direct me to the part of my response you found disrespectful?

and yes, I suppose if I were you, I would find dealing with me futile as well.

[AtticusFinch]

Atticus,

you equivocated:

nope

Geographical minutiae are not a topic about "God."

not true. First, I am glad you consider where the wars in the Book of Mormon to be minutiae. But the fact it is such an important religious site makes it about God. God allegedly led Joseph to Cumorah. By the same token, I consider the cave where Jesus was born to be more than geography. It is also of God. And you know it.

You need to come to grips with the fact that this is not your usual bully pulpit.

lol....I could care less where I am. I speak the truth and do so with no regrets. Your silly comments do not intimidate me, nor would you in person. I spit people like you out for midday snacks.

Those who participate here are not ignorant Catholics eager to swallow anything at all that might excuse them from taking the Restoration of the Gospel seriously.

No, they are ignorant Mormons who fall for anything

And if someone contradicts you, you can't then log in in your moderator persona and ping them.

lol....my moderator persona? Are you serious? That comment was either incorrect or dishonest.....knowing you, I know which one of those I pick.

There are no "issues regarding God" anywhere in view.

not in dealing with you, for sure. But I certainly understand your need to distance yourself from former prophets and apostles declarations.

[Anijen]

Would you please direct me to the part of my response you found disrespectful?

Yeah I find this one a little bit disrespectful; "your church is nothing BUT confusion."

Yeah a little upset with myself for responding after I said I wouldn't.... Arrgh I get sucked in, where is my self control gone?

Anijen~~~~> hangs his head in shame.

[Pahoran]

nope

Yep.

not true. First, I am glad you consider where the wars in the Book of Mormon to be minutiae. But the fact it is such an important religious site makes it about God.

No. It does not.

It makes it about geography.

God allegedly led Joseph to Cumorah.

Careful SirRichardRich, your ignorance of Mormon things is showing. It was Moroni who led Joseph to the place where his plates (not his father's) were buried, and he did not call it "Cumorah."

By the same token, I consider the cave where Jesus was born to be more than geography. It is also of God. And you know it.

What I "know" is that anyone whose faith relies upon knowing the precise location of said cave (if it was a cave) is deeply to be pitied, since the site is not known for certain.

lol....I could care less where I am. I speak the truth and do so with no regrets.

If only you did.

No, they are ignorant Mormons who fall for anything

Except your transparent sophistries.

lol....my moderator persona? Are you serious? That comment was either incorrect or dishonest.....knowing you, I know which one of those I pick.

I have very sound reasons for reaching that conclusion. Are you prepared to categorically deny it?

not in dealing with you, for sure. But I certainly understand your need to distance yourself from former prophets and apostles declarations.

There is no prophetic declaration under discussion that I would need to decide whether or not to distance myself therefrom.

And nothing about the location of Cumorah, or any other Book of Mormon site, is in any way "about God."

Regards,

Pahoran

[ttribe]

No, they are ignorant Mormons who fall for anything

Wait, weren't you the one who came on this board and complained about how you were being treated? Now you break out with crap like this? Unreal.

[Sevenbak]

Cinepro quoted the relevant verse (Mormon 6:6) above. Plates were buried in Cumorah, but not those given to Joseph. That is what I meant by a common misperception. It is easy to focus on the buried plates in Cumorah and the recovered plates from the hill and equate the two. There is, however, that pesky statement that says "except," and it is the plates given to Joseph that form the exception.

As Cinepro noted, nothing says that they couldn't have been returned to that hill and buried, but then there is no evidence that they were, either. We know they were not buried, at the time, in the Book of Mormon Cumorah. They were retrieved from the drumlin in NY. About 3 or more years after the fact, the NY hill was associated with Cumorah, and not by Joseph.

Right, but I would dare say that most of us on this board know enough from the text to understand there were 2 separate deposits of records, according to the text. I think we are all on the same page there.

[Brant Gardner]

AtticusFinch: Wrong. The Book of Mormon is the keystone of the LDS faith. If it is not true, then the Church falls. Do you really think God would let his prophet screw it up?

Do you typically avoid answering questions? Let me try this again. To make sure that we are on the same page, let's go to the New Testament. Do you suppose that an inspired author in the New Testament should be correct in matters of history and geography?

To try to advance this a little, I certainly hope you do not because there are some demonstrable places where they error in both history and geography. Nevertheless, I believe the doctrine.

If you profess to believe in the New Testament, please explain why you think God changed his method of operating with humanity. If you don't believe in the Bible, then there really isn't much to discuss at all, is there?

[Sevenbak]

Ooooooh....good point!

Lets pretend, for the sake of argument, that Brigham Young wasn't lying and there is indeed a cave like structure within the hill. It makes a whole lot of sense to me that this is the same "cavity of a rock" that Ether hid in, to write the remainder of his record. It also makes sense to me that as a Prophet Historian, Ether would have safeguarded large amounts of sacred records and relics of his people, just like Mormon did. I for one think the Lord had the nations flee to Cumorah/Ramah both times to gather all the sacred things in one place, from both civilizations, before they perished. Brigham said there were several wagon loads worth of records.

Joseph needed only what was meant for us at this time, so Moroni sealed them up separately, but he still had to have access to the library to finish the work.

[Sevenbak]

From careful study it would appear that as Joseph learned more, his opinions changed. We can see this actually happen from "plains of Nephites" (1830's) to more interest in Mesoamerica, especially after reading the Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan (1842)

Yes he learned more, but he didn't change his views about the Mound builders, or Cumorah in N.Y.

The Mesoamerica statement from Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan happened within months of other statements by Joseph about Hopewell mummies found in Kentucky being also of Nephite origin. The statements about Mesoamerica were about Zarahemla and the homeland of the Nephties, not the land Northward where the Nephites migrated, to the land of the "mounds" as recorded by Joseph and others.

Taking all the accounts, journal entries, letters, etc. into view, It fits a very large footprint of the family of Lehi, not a limited 2-300 mile radius for 1000 years.

I will add this, I think I posted it on the other thread weeks ago, but Orson Pratt sums it up pretty nicely here, as to the understanding of who the moundbuilders were, and who they were not.

"The extracts from the Book of Mormon, published in a former Part of this article, show that the people of " NEPHEL" or " NEPHITES" dwelt in the country of the mounds, from fifty years before Christ, till three hundred and eighty-four years after Christ." - Orson Pratt

[AtticusFinch]

I just wanted to expose yet another Pahoran lie, he claimed many prosecutors tried to expose Joseph and failed. That is a lie. He ran from most arrests and was NEVER questioned on his plethora of versions.

Not sure why he needs to be dishonest.....

[Kevin Christensen]

so many church leaders and prophets have declared the final battle took place in NY Cumorah. Yet, it appears the God let each of them mislead people.

And we are back to the true problem with LDS prophets. If they say stuff you like, then it is from God. If what they say turns out to be wrong or repugnant, or plain awful, then they had no clue and were just offerring opinion.

what a handy way to look at it.....

Not only handy, but consistent with D&C 1:24-28.

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

One can assume that prophets have one input (God's inerrant word) and one output (God's inerrant word), and are therefore inerrant. That leaves the problem of consistency. What happens if eye witness prophets (like Alma and Mormon and Moroni and Helaman) leave written descriptions of New World Book of Mormon geography and culture that have been demonstrably neglected by those claiming that the New York drumlin is the same as the Book of Mormon hill named Ramah/Cumorah? While it is easy to find LDS general authority quotes and opinions on the topic, it is very difficult any of those early opinions accompanied by close and careful and comprehensive study of the relevant words of the eye-witness prophets. Sorenson and Clark and Spackman have collectively identified around 1000 Book of Mormon passages with geographic information that must fit together like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. This includes distances, ups, downs, the existence of a clearly defined river (see Larry Poulson), culture, volcanic events, the use of cement at a specific location relative to other locations, etc. The text also includes warnings about the necessity of reading scripture in the cultural context of the authors, rather than that of the reader. (2 Nephi 25:1-4).

It's not enough to say, "Surely Joseph MUST have known!" and to not demonstrate consistency with the 1000 relevant scriptures written by eyewitnesses who, without qualification must have known. Joseph as an author ought to know. Joseph as a conspirator or front man may not have known. Joseph as a translator may not have known. While translating, Joseph famously did not know that Jerusalem had walls. If he did not know that, why assume that he must have known that the hill in New York (which does not fit the Book of Mormon text) really is that hill despite the lack of fit? Hang consistency. Authority is all. Or, is it?

The difficulty of consistency and perfection goes away if one recognizes that prophets have multiple inputs (biography, culture, books, pop culture, scriptures, media, conversation, study, and various kinds of revelation), and multiple outputs (human and divine). Alma is a particularly good example of this.

Behold, I do not say that he will

come among us at the time of his

dwelling in his mortal tabernacle;

for behold, the Spirit hath not said

unto me that this should be the

case. Now as to this thing I do not

know; but this much I do know. . .

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I just wanted to expose yet another Pahoran lie, he claimed many prosecutors tried to expose Joseph and failed. That is a lie. He ran from most arrests and was NEVER questioned on his plethora of versions.

Not sure why he needs to be dishonest.....

Nice derail dude.

[Pahoran]

As Mola Ram Suda Ram said: Nice derail dude. Especially since the statement in question was made on another thread.

I just wanted to expose yet another Pahoran lie, he claimed many prosecutors tried to expose Joseph and failed. That is a lie. He ran from most arrests and was NEVER questioned on his plethora of versions.

I never said that the trials were about his "plethora of versions," which is nothing but your spiteful spin on the fact that he didn't memorise a single pat story. I am absolutely sure that, if every time he told anyone about his First Vision from 1832 onwards he had repeated exactly the same details in the same order and described them in the same way, you would pounce upon that as evidence that he'd made it all up, wouldn't you?

Yes, of course you would.

Now, as to the meat of your accusation: Call For References, please, that Joseph "ran from most arrests." Note that "most" means "more than half," so you will need to list all the actual attempts to arrest him, and show how many times he "ran."

His acquittal in Bainbridge, in 1826 -- after having fronted court -- will not count as one of them.

Likewise, his departure from Ohio -- again, after he had fronted up and paid the fine for breaching banking regulations in Kirtland -- will not count.

Again, his escape from unlawful incarceration in Missouri -- evidently contrived by the Missouri authorities to minimise their own embarrassment -- will not count.

Neither will his aborted escape from Nauvoo, since as you and I both know -- although I would be mightily surprised if you were ever be honest enough to admit it -- he was not trying to avoid arrest, but assassination.

But whether you are prepared to provide any references for your false accusation or not, I will provide a reference to support my claim. In the matter of his arrest on a trumped-up charge of conspiring to murder Grandison Newell, it was reported:

In any case, the trial is held June 9 in the county court, Justice Humphrey of the Court of Common Pleas presiding. The result is, according to a newspaper reporter, the entire acquittal of Joseph Smith, Jr. of the charges alleged against him. This is said to be the thirteenth prosecution which has been instituted against Joseph Smith, Jr. for the prejudice against him, he has never in a single instance been convicted, on a final trial. This fact shows on the one hand, that a spirit of persecution has existed, and on the other hand it certainly furnishes some evidence that he has for some reason, been falsely accused, and that he is indeed and in truth better than some of his accusers.

So who told the "lie" here, Atticus?

Not sure why he needs to be dishonest.....

While I, OTOH, am quite sure I do understand why you need to accuse me of being dishonest. I've worked out your schtick, Atticus. It goes like this:

1. You make insolent and inflammatory remarks.
   
2. When called on them, you adopt a simon-pure posture and innocently claim to be telling just "the truth."
   
3. Then, whenever the facts start getting uncomfortably close to home, you go on the offensive, trying to put your opponents on the back foot.

You need to accept the fact that it's not going to work.

Regards,

Pahoran

[cdowis]

I just wanted to expose yet another Pahoran lie, he claimed many prosecutors tried to expose Joseph and failed. That is a lie. He ran from most arrests and was NEVER questioned on his plethora of versions.

Not sure why he needs to be dishonest.....

I suggest that you read the guidelines for this forum. I suspect that the mods will point this out to you.

There is another discussion forum which allows such personal attacks. Indeed it will probably welcome you with open arms.

[Skylla]

I just wanted to expose yet another Pahoran lie, he claimed many prosecutors tried to expose Joseph and failed. That is a lie. He ran from most arrests and was NEVER questioned on his plethora of versions.

Not sure why he needs to be dishonest.....

AtticusFinch has been banned from the thread. No further reports are necessary.

Skylla

[why me]

AtticusFinch has been banned from the thread. No further reports are necessary.

Skylla

It seems that atticus was also suspended from the catholic answers forum. It seems that the new moderator does not appreciate his combative style or perhaps catholics answers are trying to clean up their act. However, it is enlightening what the pope said about the possible burning of the koran by the small protestant sect. He said that people (especially catholics) should respect the holy books of other people. And of course, that would include the book of mormon. Hopefully catholic answers, the site that atticus used to flourish on got the message.

Atticus would be an interesting poster if he would only lessen his combative style and begin to dialogue and debate.

[why me]

I suggest that you read the guidelines for this forum. I suspect that the mods will point this out to you.

There is another discussion forum which allows such personal attacks. Indeed it will probably welcome you with open arms.

It has already. :=)

[ERayR]

So, based on the article that Joseph was consulted on and offered his opinion, do you think Joseph believed the great final battle took place in New York?

Only a mind reader of the long deceased could know the answer ot that question. Are you one?

[ERayR]

Indeed ttribe (Thank you and I stand corrected)

Correction: Atticus, my beloved Catholic brother, you are a poopy head!

Sorry Brant (Ceeboo doesn't really think all you LDS folks are poopy heads)

Why do I get SOOOO confused with who is typing with Atticus' posts? (Maybe it's the Jack Daniels)

Thanks again ttribe.

Peace,

Ceeboo

Friend Ceeboo you are sometimes just noise.

[cinepro]

Only a mind reader of the long deceased could know the answer ot that question. Are you one?

We could also know what Joseph Smith thought if he had actually said anything.

For example, Marion Romney is dead, but we know he thought the final battle took place there because he said so. No mind reading necessary.

[Sevenbak]

We could also know what Joseph Smith thought if he had actually said anything.

For example, Marion Romney is dead, but we know he thought the final battle took place there because he said so. No mind reading necessary.

And a whole lot more than Marion G.

[Obiwan]

We agree that