Joseph's view about Cumorah

[Sevenbak]

In the Messenger and Advocate, Oliver Cowdry, writing a history of the Church, gives great detail about Cumorah and what transpired there.

His disclaimer, at the beginning, makes it very clear that Joseph was consulted and approved of the material.

That our narrative may be correct, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother J. [Joseph] SMITH jr. has offered to assist us. Indeed, there are many items connected with the fore part of this subject that render his labor indispensible. With his labor and with authentic documents now in our possession, we hope to render this a pleasing and agreeable narrative, well worth the examination and perusal of the Saints.--To do justice to this subject will require time and space: we therefore ask the forbearance of our readers, assuring them that it shall be founded upon facts.

...You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N. Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of the road. Why I say large, is, because it is as large perhaps, as any in that country. To a person acquainted with this road, a description would be unnecessary, as it is the largest and rises the highest of any on that route. The north end rises quite sudden until it assumes a level with the more southerly extremity, and I think I may say an elevation higher than at the south a short distance, say half or three fourths of a mile. As you pass toward Canandaigua it lessens gradually until the surface assumes its common level, or is broken by other smaller hills or ridges,water courses and ravines. I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller as he passes by.

At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.

By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the Book of Mormon you will read Mormon's account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah. [it is printed Cumorah, which is an error.] In this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites--once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope, or doubt. A few had fled to the South, who were hunted down by the victorious party, and all who would not deny the Savior and his religion, were put to death. Mormon himself, according to the record of his son Moroni, was also slain.

But a long time previous to this national disaster it appears from his own account, he foresaw approaching destruction. In fact, if he perused the records of his fathers, which were in his possession, he could have learned that such would be the case. Alma, who lived before the coming of the Messiah, prophesies this. He however, by divine appointment, abridged from those records, in his own style and language, a short account of the more important and prominent items, from the days of Lehi to his own time, after which he deposited, as he says, on the 529th page, all the records in this same hill, Cumorah, and after gave his small record to his son Moroni, who, as appears from the same, finished, after witnessing the extinction of his people as a nation.

It was not the wicked who overcame the righteous; far from this: it was the wicked against the wicked, and by the wicked the wicked were punished.--The Nephites who were once enlightened, had fallen from a more elevated standing as to favor and privilege before the Lord, in consequence of the righteousness of their fathers, and now falling below, for such was actually the case, were suffered to be overcome, and the land was left to the possession of the red men, who were without intelligence, only in the affairs of their wars; and having no records, only preserving their history by tradition from father to son, lost the account of their true origin, and wandered from river to river, from hill to hill, from mountain to mountain, and from sea to sea, till the land was again peopled, in a measure, by a rude, wild, revengeful, warlike and barbarous race.--Such are our Indians.

This hill, by the Jaredites, was called Ramah: by it, or around it, pitched the famous army of Coriantumr their tents. Coriantumr was the last king of the Jaredites. The opposing army were to the west, and in this same valley, and near by, from day to day, did that mighty race spill their blood, in wrath, contending, as it were, brother against brother, and father, against son. In this same spot, in full view from the top of this same hill, one may gaze with astonishment upon the ground which was twice covered with the dead and dying of our fellowmen. Here may be seen where once sunk to nought the pride and strength of two mighty nations; and here may be contemplated, in solitude, while nothing but the faithful record of Mormon and Moroni is now extant to inform us of the fact, scenes of misery and distress--the aged, whose silver locks in other places and at other times would command reverence; the mother, who in other circumstances would be spared from violence; the infant, whose tender cries would be regarded and listened to with a feeling of compassion and tenderness; and the virgin, whose grace, beauty and modesty, would be esteemed and held inviolate by all good men and enlightened and civilized nations, alike disregarded and treated with scorn!--In vain did the hoary head and man of gray hairs ask for mercy; in vain did the mother plead for compassion; in vain did the helpless and harmless infant weep for very anguish, and in vain did the virgin seek to escape the ruthless hand of revengeful foes and demons in human form--all alike were trampled down by the feet of the strong, and crushed beneath the rage of battle and war! Alas, who can reflect upon the last struggles of great and populous nations, sinking to dust beneath the hand of justice and retribution, without weeping over the corruption of the human heart, and sighing for the hour when the clangor of arms shall no more be heard, nor the calamities of contending armies no more experienced for a thousand years? Alas, the calamity of war, the extinction of nations, the ruin of kingdoms, the fall of empires and the dissolution of governments! O the misery, distress and evil attendant on these! Who can contemplate like scenes without sorrowing, and who so destitute of commiseration as not to be pained that man has fallen so low, so far beneath the station in which he was created?

In this vale lie commingled, in one mass of ruin, the ashes of thousands, and in this vale was destined to consume the fair forms and vigorous systems of tens of thousands of the human race--blood mixed with blood, flesh with flesh, bones with bones, and dust with dust! When the vital spark which animated their clay had fled, each lifeless lump lay on one common level--cold and inanimate. Those bosoms which had burned with rage against each other for real or supposed injury, had now ceased to heave with malice; those arms which were, a few moments before nerved with strength, had alike become paralyzed, and those hearts which had been fired with revenge, had now ceased to heave with malice; those arms which were, a few moments before nerved with strength, had alike become paralyzed, and those hearts which had been fired with revenge, had now ceased to beat, and the head to think--in silence, in solitude, and in disgrace alike, they have long since turned to earth, to their mother dust, to await the august, and to millions, awful hour, when the trump of the Son of God shall echo and re-echo from the skies, and they come forth, quickened and immortalized, to not only stand in each other's presence, but before the bar of him who is Eternal!. . .

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/Cowdery-hist.html

[charity]

In the Messenger and Advocate, Oliver Cowdry, writing a history of the Church, gives great detail about Cumorah and what transpired there.

His disclaimer, at the beginning, makes it very clear that Joseph was consulted and approved of the material.

That our narrative may be correct, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother J. [Joseph] SMITH jr. has offered to assist us. Indeed, there are many items connected with the fore part of this subject that render his labor indispensible. With his labor and with authentic documents now in our possession, we hope to render this a pleasing and agreeable narrative, well worth the examination and perusal of the Saints.--To do justice to this subject will require time and space: we therefore ask the forbearance of our readers, assuring them that it shall be founded upon facts.

I am sorry, Sevenbak, but I find the disclaimer not to be in any way saying that Joseph approved of what was written. Maybe consulted, maybe offered opinions. But approved? I don't see it.

[Kiviuq]

I am sorry, Sevenbak, but I find the disclaimer not to be in any way saying that Joseph approved of what was written. Maybe consulted, maybe offered opinions. But approved? I don't see it.

So, based on the article that Joseph was consulted on and offered his opinion, do you think Joseph believed the great final battle took place in New York?

[Brant Gardner]

I am sorry, Sevenbak, but I find the disclaimer not to be in any way saying that Joseph approved of what was written. Maybe consulted, maybe offered opinions. But approved? I don't see it.

Whether approved or not, it is quite likely that this reflected Joseph's view at the time. However, that doesn't mean that it was a view established by prophecy or any specific knowledge -- or even that it originated with Joseph. The best evidence indicates that the association of the NY hill with the Book of Mormon Cumorah was not originally Joseph's. If someone else made the connection, and then Joseph didn't see any reason to change it, it does not and cannot, mean that there was any revelatory information in the identification.

Once the name Cumorah was applied, all of the Book of Mormon information came along with it.

What the early church members missed, and we tend to continue to mistake, is that the plates that Moroni gave to Joseph were explicitly not buried in Cumorah--so the entire reason for the association is incorrect.

[Kiviuq]

Whether approved or not, it is quite likely that this reflected Joseph's view at the time. However, that doesn't mean that it was a view established by prophecy or any specific knowledge -- or even that it originated with Joseph. The best evidence indicates that the association of the NY hill with the Book of Mormon Cumorah was not originally Joseph's. If someone else made the connection, and then Joseph didn't see any reason to change it, it does not and cannot, mean that there was any revelatory information in the identification.

Once the name Cumorah was applied, all of the Book of Mormon information came along with it.

What the early church members missed, and we tend to continue to mistake, is that the plates that Moroni gave to Joseph were explicitly not buried in Cumorah--so the entire reason for the association is incorrect.

I find the whole

[cinepro]

What the early church members missed, and we tend to continue to mistake, is that the plates that Moroni gave to Joseph were explicitly not buried in Cumorah--so the entire reason for the association is incorrect.

Actually, the plates were implicitly not buried in Cumorah, not explicitly.

In Mormon 6:6, we are told the following:

[6] And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.

So it may be correct to say that the Golden Plates weren't hidden in Cumorah¹ in 385 AD, but we don't know if Moroni returned and hid them there in 421 AD. That appears to be the assumption held my many (including those who believe the Brigham Young account of the Cumorah cave without invoking theories of spirit eyes or cross-continent teleportation).

Obviously, the plates that Joseph Smith was translating couldn't have been "hidden up" in Mormon 6, or Joseph would have had to stop translating and the story would end*. So the specific mention may have been only to clarify that the story will be able to continue until Moroni hides up those plates (at which point, the story does end!).

*Although, presumably, it would be possible for God to reveal what happened after the plates were hidden up through direct revelation, thus allowing the story to continue.

[Brant Gardner]

I find the whole

[Brant Gardner]

Actually, the plates were implicitly not buried in Cumorah, not explicitly.

I accept and appreciate the correction.

[AtticusFinch]

so many church leaders and prophets have declared the final battle took place in NY Cumorah. Yet, it appears the God let each of them mislead people.

And we are back to the true problem with LDS prophets. If they say stuff you like, then it is from God. If what they say turns out to be wrong or repugnant, or plain awful, then they had no clue and were just offerring opinion.

what a handy way to look at it.....

[Kiviuq]

I am interested in why you find it disingenuous. On what do you base that conclusion?

We agree that

[Sevenbak]

I am sorry, Sevenbak, but I find the disclaimer not to be in any way saying that Joseph approved of what was written. Maybe consulted, maybe offered opinions. But approved? I don't see it.

I guess we read this much differently from each other. It's clear to me. Not only that, but the history was written specifically at the request of Joseph in order for him to not have to tell it individually over and over.

Why Oliver would make such an egregious error in without being corrected by Joseph is just beyond me belief, especially in light of everything he and other brethren said on the subject.

[Brant Gardner]

I had always believed that Joseph was

[Sevenbak]

Whether approved or not, it is quite likely that this reflected Joseph's view at the time. However, that doesn't mean that it was a view established by prophecy or any specific knowledge -- or even that it originated with Joseph. The best evidence indicates that the association of the NY hill with the Book of Mormon Cumorah was not originally Joseph's. If someone else made the connection, and then Joseph didn't see any reason to change it, it does not and cannot, mean that there was any revelatory information in the identification.

Once the name Cumorah was applied, all of the Book of Mormon information came along with it.

What the early church members missed, and we tend to continue to mistake, is that the plates that Moroni gave to Joseph were explicitly not buried in Cumorah--so the entire reason for the association is incorrect.

I agree that it represented Joseph's view at the time. Nothing, to my knowledge says he changed his view, from Joseph on down to the other prophets.

Wait, the plates were specifically mentioned about being buried in Cumorah, so I'm not catching your meaning.

[Brant Gardner]

so many church leaders and prophets have declared the final battle took place in NY Cumorah. Yet, it appears the God let each of them mislead people.

Your definition of a prophet is that they are inerrant in all topics and all times? Please provide any scriptural support for that statement. Historical evidence will suffice if you don't have scriptural.

I don't see why your odd definition of a prophet at all requires me to change my understanding of a prophet.

And we are back to the true problem with LDS prophets. If they say stuff you like, then it is from God. If what they say turns out to be wrong or repugnant, or plain awful, then they had no clue and were just offerring opinion.

And your evidence that this is my approach comes from? I certainly don't recognize it. Is it as well supported as your personal definition of what a prophet must do and be?

[Sevenbak]

Actually, the plates were implicitly not buried in Cumorah, not explicitly.

In Mormon 6:6, we are told the following:

So it may be correct to say that the Golden Plates weren't hidden in Cumorah¹ in 385 AD, but we don't know if Moroni returned and hid them there in 421 AD. That appears to be the assumption held my many (including those who believe the Brigham Young account of the Cumorah cave without invoking theories of spirit eyes or cross-continent teleportation).

Obviously, the plates that Joseph Smith was translating couldn't have been "hidden up" in Mormon 6, or Joseph would have had to stop translating and the story would end*. So the specific mention may have been only to clarify that the story will be able to continue until Moroni hides up those plates (at which point, the story does end!).

*Although, presumably, it would be possible for God to reveal what happened after the plates were hidden up through direct revelation, thus allowing the story to continue.

Not only that, but Moroni had to have access to the other plates, including the Jaredite record, to make his additions.

[Brant Gardner]

Wait, the plates were specifically mentioned about being buried in Cumorah, so I'm not catching your meaning.

Cinepro quoted the relevant verse (Mormon 6:6) above. Plates were buried in Cumorah, but not those given to Joseph. That is what I meant by a common misperception. It is easy to focus on the buried plates in Cumorah and the recovered plates from the hill and equate the two. There is, however, that pesky statement that says "except," and it is the plates given to Joseph that form the exception.

As Cinepro noted, nothing says that they couldn't have been returned to that hill and buried, but then there is no evidence that they were, either. We know they were not buried, at the time, in the Book of Mormon Cumorah. They were retrieved from the drumlin in NY. About 3 or more years after the fact, the NY hill was associated with Cumorah, and not by Joseph.

[cinepro]

Not only that, but Moroni had to have access to the other plates, including the Jaredite record, to make his additions.

Ooooooh....good point!

[AtticusFinch]

Your definition of a prophet is that they are inerrant in all topics and all times? Please provide any scriptural support for that statement. Historical evidence will suffice if you don't have scriptural.

I have never said they need to be inerrant in all topics. Your comment is a red herring. This is not ALL topics, but a topic on the Book of mormon and, if the book is true, God. Prophets should not be wrong on THOSE topics. God says He is not a God of confusion, but your church is nothing BUT confusion.

I don't see why your odd definition of a prophet at all requires me to change my understanding of a prophet.

Yeah....being correct on issues regarding God must be an odd idea for Mormon prophets

[Anijen]

so many church leaders and prophets have declared the final battle took place in NY Cumorah. Yet, it appears the God let each of them mislead people.

And we are back to the true problem with LDS prophets. If they say stuff you like, then it is from God. If what they say turns out to be wrong or repugnant, or plain awful, then they had no clue and were just offerring opinion.

It does not make them any less a Prophet. If we apply your same manner of reasoning to Biblical Prophets we can conclude too that many of them are only offering their opinion?

Sevenbak;

I agree that it represented Joseph's view at the time. Nothing, to my knowledge says he changed his view, from Joseph on down to the other prophets.

Wait, the plates were specifically mentioned about being buried in Cumorah,...

I agree also that it was Josephs view at the time he said this. However if you think Joseph view never changed... If it was Josephs view at the time (which I think it was) that in itself does not make it (geography of Cumorah) revelatory or official doctrine.

From careful study it would appear that as Joseph learned more, his opinions changed. We can see this actually happen from "plains of Nephites" (1830's) to more interest in Mesoamerica, especially after reading the Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan (1842)

[AtticusFinch]

It does not make them any less a Prophet. If we apply your same manner of reasoning to Biblical Prophets we can conclude too that many of them are only offering their opinion?

First, there is absolutely NO evidence that any of the numerous LDS apostles and prophets were just offering opinions. They were declarations. In speeches, at GC, in LDS approved doctrine books...it was declared. Second, could you show me where Biblical prophets were wrong about God?

I agree also that it was Josephs view at the time he said this. However if you think Joseph view never changed then I think you need to probably study our history a little more. If it was Josephs view at the time (which I think it was)that in itself does not make it (geography of Cumorah) revelatory or official doctrine.

View? He was speaking to God often. You think God mislead him?

From careful study it would appear that as Joseph learned more his opinions changed. We can see this actually happen from "plains of Nephites" (1830's) to more interest in Mesoamerica, especially after reading the Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan (1842)

He never went back on his declaration

[Brant Gardner]

AtticusFinch: I have never said they need to be inerrant in all topics. Your comment is a red herring. This is not ALL topics, but a topic on the Book of mormon and, if the book is true, God. Prophets should not be wrong on THOSE topics. God says He is not a God of confusion, but your church is nothing BUT confusion.

I'm glad you don't see the need for them to be inerrant in all topics. Now we simply have to narrow the field a bit. We are talking about Book of Mormon history--nothing about doctrine, nothing theological.

To make things simple, do you expect that prophets are historically accurate in the Bible?

[AtticusFinch]

AtticusFinch: I have never said they need to be inerrant in all topics. Your comment is a red herring. This is not ALL topics, but a topic on the Book of mormon and, if the book is true, God. Prophets should not be wrong on THOSE topics. God says He is not a God of confusion, but your church is nothing BUT confusion.

I'm glad you don't see the need for them to be inerrant in all topics. Now we simply have to narrow the field a bit. We are talking about Book of Mormon history--nothing about doctrine, nothing theological.

Wrong. The Book of Mormon is the keystone of the LDS faith. If it is not true, then the Church falls. Do you really think God would let his prophet screw it up?

[Ceeboo]

God says He is not a God of confusion, but your church is nothing BUT confusion.

Hi Brant,

Well, I think your church is nothing BUT a bunch of poopy heads!

And, my church can beat your church up!

Peace,

Ceeboo

[Anijen]

Anijen, on 07 September 2010 - 06:56 PM, said:

It does not make them any less a Prophet. If we apply your same manner of reasoning to Biblical Prophets we can conclude too that many of them are only offering their opinion?

First, there is absolutely NO evidence that any of the numerous LDS apostles and prophets were just offering opinions. They were declarations. In speeches, at GC, in LDS approved doctrine books...it was declared. Second, could you show me where Biblical prophets were wrong about God?

I agree also that it was Josephs view at the time he said this. However if you think Joseph view never changed then I think you need to probably study our history a little more. If it was Josephs view at the time (which I think it was)that in itself does not make it (geography of Cumorah) revelatory or official doctrine.

View? He was speaking to God often. You think God mislead him?

From careful study it would appear that as Joseph learned more his opinions changed. We can see this actually happen from "plains of Nephites" (1830's) to more interest in Mesoamerica, especially after reading the Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan (1842)

He never went back on his declaration

> Atticus Finch, You are the antithesis of your pseudonym. With Sevenbak I have debated many times and we still disagree with each other (mainly on the location of the final battle location of the BofM), but we respect each others view points. However I find conversation and dialogue with you impossible if not futile. therefore this will be my only response to you.

PS could you use the quotation tool and write your replies outside of the quotes it makes it confusing; for example to those who think Brant said;

"God says He is not a God of confusion, but your church is nothing BUT confusion." which was you, not Brant.

giving Ceeboo a hard time

[ttribe]

Hi Brant,

Well, I think your church is nothing BUT a bunch of poopy heads!

And, my church can beat your church up!

Peace,

Ceeboo

You misquoted...that wasn't Brant who said that, it was AtticusFinch.

Edited to add: Here's the original - Post Link. For some reason AF refuses to make the proper use of the quote/reply function on this board, so he embeds his quotes inside someone else's.