Has Jesus always been a God?

[Nathair/|\]

Someone else can explain the physics involved, but time as we know it started with the Big Bang. As I understand it, at that point, Jesus was already God of this universe. (I could be wrong, that's just the best hypothesis I can come up with.) So, from that perspective, there was no time when Jesus wasn't God.

Yours under the speculative oaks,

Nathair /|\

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Please, anyone, explain the following statements:

• [*]

[David T]

Please, anyone, explain the following statements:

Rob, I will.

[BCSpace]

If you are LDS, I would like your answer to this question. Has Jesus always been a God, or did he become a God? Feel free to offer any support for your view, if you like.

By "always" I mean everlastingly from all eternity, with no beginning to his status or nature as a God.

Relative to us he's always been a God. But ultimately, he progressed to Godhood the same as any other. Obviously in the premotal existence, he was not a God like he is now (Revelation 3:21), but verses like Abraham 3:19 establish his Godhood at that time even though he was not yet a resurrected being.

[Zakuska]

Please, anyone, explain the following statements:

• [*]

[Vance]

So, by inference, your explanation is that these statements are false teaching?

False? I wouldn't say that.

Official LDS doctrine? Not as Rob is intending them to be interpreted.

Notice that NONE of those statements require that Jesus be denied eternal existence or eternal divinity/godhood.

Going from a god to a God or to God doesn't require what Rob wants it to.

But when you believe in the false doctrine of ex nihilo creation, those statements create the wrong impression. Which is exactly what Rob intends.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

All of Robs mined quotes can be detonated with a single verse....

Heb. 5: 9

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

- The use of the word "became" implies that he was something less before hand.

- "Being made perfect" also denotes he was something less before hand.

Even though he was Gods son he had to learn just like the rest of us,

Heb. 5: 8

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Sorry Rob but your trap misfired.

DARN: Pa Pa beet me to it!

That is a first!

[frankenstein]

here is my persnikitty response.

I second the request for quotes that are considered LDS scripture.

also

If you do not claim direct revelation from God, do you have any business claiming to know what the Scriptures mean?

[Zakuska]

Well just don't let it go to your head!

[Rob Bowman]

Nackhadlow,

Talmage neither denies that Jesus became a God nor affirms that Jesus has always been God. He refers to Jesus as "the Eternal One," but what does this mean? There are too many examples of LDS leaders (including Joseph Smith) equivocating on the meaning of "eternal" to assume without further ado that Talmage was affirming that Jesus has always existed as God.

I agree that the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus has always been God--indeed, that he is the one God from eternity to eternity. But LDS doctrine is another matter, despite protestations to the contrary.

I cannot find a single statement from a Mormon authority, after about 1837, explicitly denying that Jesus became a God or explicitly affirming that he has been God from all eternity past. Can you?

As posted in the other thread:

From Jesus The Christ, by Talmage, still part of the essential Missionary Library, in the chapter The Antemortal Godship of Christ:

We claim scriptural authority for the assertion that Jesus Christ was and is God the Creator, the God who revealed Himself to Adam, Enoch, and all the antediluvial patriarchs and prophets down to Noah; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God of Israel as a united people, and the God of Ephraim and Judah after the disruption of the Hebrew nation; the God who made Himself known to the prophets from Moses to Malachi; the God of the Old Testament record; and the God of the Nephites. We affirm that Jesus Christ was and is Jehovah, the Eternal One.We claim scriptural authority for the assertion that Jesus Christ was and is God the Creator, the God who revealed Himself to Adam, Enoch, and all the antediluvial patriarchs and prophets down to Noah; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God of Israel as a united people, and the God of Ephraim and Judah after the disruption of the Hebrew nation; the God who made Himself known to the prophets from Moses to Malachi; the God of the Old Testament record; and the God of the Nephites. We affirm that Jesus Christ was and is Jehovah, the Eternal One.

From the Title page of the Book of Mormon:

And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations

I am not familiar with any references stating that there was a time prior to this when Jesus did not have the status of God. I only know of referencing affirming his Eternal Godhood.

[David T]

I agree that the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus has always been God--indeed, that he is the one God from eternity to eternity. But LDS doctrine is another matter, despite protestations to the contrary.

As a Latter-day Saint, I strongly believe the Doctrine of Christ taught in the Book of Mormon.

I cannot find a single statement from a Mormon authority, after about 1837, explicitly denying that Jesus became a God or explicitly affirming that he has been God from all eternity past. Can you?

Frankly, I don't think it's something that was felt needed to clarify or to single out on a general level. There is nothing presented as revelation that states otherwise. I think you'll find the vast majority of members today are believers in the eternal godhood of Christ, and the official publications and teachings of the Church all affirm that.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I cannot find a single statement from a Mormon authority, after about 1837, explicitly denying that Jesus became a God or explicitly affirming that he has been God from all eternity past. Can you?

I can't find the statement "Eternity past" in the bible. Just an interesting observaton that is all.

[Storm Rider]

The correct answer is Yes. Which is also true of His Father. And which is also true of you and me who are the children of God and heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ inasmuch as we put off the natural man and put on the image of God and become one with Him.

- SlackTime

Slacktime, I agree with you for the most part, but I am not sure about the whole the statement. I believe that the Godhead jointly created a way for us to become like them, but that they are unique; they were God without assistance from anyone. Their greatest work is in assissting us to become like them. In so many ways Exaltation is in their sharing their oneness with us. In so doing, by their power alone, they make us like them, yet they will always be our God for eternity.

[Zakuska]

Nackhadlow,

Talmage neither denies that Jesus became a God nor affirms that Jesus has always been God. He refers to Jesus as "the Eternal One," but what does this mean? There are too many examples of LDS leaders (including Joseph Smith) equivocating on the meaning of "eternal" to assume without further ado that Talmage was affirming that Jesus has always existed as God.

I agree that the Book of Mormon teaches that Jesus has always been God--indeed, that he is the one God from eternity to eternity. But LDS doctrine is another matter, despite protestations to the contrary.

I cannot find a single statement from a Mormon authority, after about 1837, explicitly denying that Jesus became a God or explicitly affirming that he has been God from all eternity past. Can you?

And probably with Good reason. SInce the co-eternal aspect of Jesus was concocted at Nicea.

Paul tells us that Widsom is the preincarnate Christ. (1 cor 1:24)

Wisdom was a created being.

Sirach (Ecclesiasticus)

Ecclesiasticus

1:1-4 All wisdom cometh from the Lord, and is with him for ever. The sand of the sea, and the drops of the rain, And the days of eternity who shall number? The height of the heaven and the breadth of the earth And the deep and wisdom, who shall search them out?

Wisdom hath been created before all things

, And the understanding of prudence from everlasting.

[Rob Bowman]

nackhadlow,

You wrote:

As a Latter-day Saint, I strongly believe the Doctrine of Christ taught in the Book of Mormon.

I'm afraid you can't consistently or coherently accept both the Book of Mormon Christology and the later developed theology and Christology of Joseph Smith. If you prefer the Book of Mormon to the King Follett Discourse, good for you.

You wrote:

Frankly, I don't think it's something that was felt needed to clarify or to single out on a general level. There is nothing presented as revelation that states otherwise. I think you'll find the vast majority of members today are believers in the eternal godhood of Christ, and the official publications and teachings of the Church all affirm that.

You can't have it both ways. Either there was no need to clarify the issue and so no statement was ever made, or official publications all affirm explicitly the position you claim is the correct one.

[Rob Bowman]

BCSpace,

The position you articulate is what I understand to be the standard LDS doctrine. For some reason, several Mormons here vehemently deny it and even claim I'm "quote mining."

Relative to us he's always been a God. But ultimately, he progressed to Godhood the same as any other. Obviously in the premotal existence, he was not a God like he is now (Revelation 3:21), but verses like Abraham 3:19 establish his Godhood at that time even though he was not yet a resurrected being.

[USU78]

For Rob's benefit and education:

D&C 93:11-13 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us. And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace; And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

What make'ee o' tha'?

[Rob Bowman]

USU78,

I'm already familiar with this text. It doesn't seem to disagree with the LDS authorities I quoted, and in fact might support what they say. What is it you think I should learn from this text?

[David T]

nackhadlow,

You wrote:

I'm afraid you can't consistently or coherently accept both the Book of Mormon Christology and the later developed theology and Christology of Joseph Smith.

Actually, Rob, I can, and do.

You can't have it both ways. Either there was no need to clarify the issue and so no statement was ever made, or official publications all affirm explicitly the position you claim is the correct one.

Perhaps I was unclear. I'm trying very hard to be polite with you, Rob.

The publications affirm the Eternity of the Godhood of Christ. What they don't do is say, "Well, some have said and believed that before Jesus was the Eternal God, Jehovah, of the Old Testament, that he wasn't really God. We deny that, and affirm that when the scriptures and publications say Jesus is the Eternal God, it's safe for you to assume it means that Jesus really always was God."

I think it starts to get silly when such specific nitty-gritty pro-affirmations or rejections of past tangential teachings are required to prove that the Church really doesn't institutionally teach today what a critic points out some individuals did teach in the past, or may privately or individually continue to believe today.

[Rob Bowman]

All,

I'll be on the move for the next few hours, so I won't be able to post immediately. This is just a notice to those who might wonder if I've "cut and run."

[urroner]

USU78,

I'm already familiar with this text. It doesn't seem to disagree with the LDS authorities I quoted, and in fact might support what they say. What is it you think I should learn from this text?

Rob, how do you interpret that text? If Jesus has always been God and will always be God and if being God requires eternal perfection, how can Jesus not ever not have complete fullness or is it possible that during his life, Jesus wasn't God?

[USU78]

Rob, how do you interpret that text? If Jesus has always been God and will always be God and if being God requires eternal perfection, how can Jesus not ever not have complete fullness or is it possible that during his life, Jesus wasn't God?

Thanks, Judge. I wondered if I was so opaque that nobody understood that I asked Rob to say sum'in about the text.

USU "Awfully tired of questions answered with questions" 78

[urroner]

Thanks, Judge. I wondered if I was so opaque that nobody understood that I asked Rob to say sum'in about the text.

USU "Awfully tired of questions answered with questions" 78

In spite of your vile animosity towards the Y where only the truly chosen of the Lord go, I, as the Judge, find you, USU78, without guile.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Rob - I am curious how you would answer this question. Has Jesus always been God?

[mfbukowski]

Rob

As always, you have chosen to ignore me.

Was God "always" God before he created time?

Before there was time, was there an "always"?

Don't blow this off- I promise to keep nagging you until you answer. This is the answer to your question. We have teachings about things you don't even dream of.

When you see quotes speaking of "becoming" God, those are referring to "times" "before" this "current eternity". They could be "after" this current eternity for that matter, but it makes it easier to think about if we stick to the idea that they were "before".

This sounds paradoxical, which in a sense it is. But the paradox is easily explained by reference to something called the "Liar's Paradox"- which you can google if you actually want the logical proof behind it all.

The point is, one must take a point of view "outside" the paradox in order to resolve it.

So stepping outside of any time reference, one can resolve the above apparently contradictory quotes by seeing each eternity as "one eternal round"

There are successive "eternities" on this view- as some scientists are now postulating there are successive Big Bangs.

So one could "become" a God in one "eternity" and then rule over the next "eternity" as an eternal God for that particular eternity.

So the references to God being the same "forever" refer to THIS eternity alone, while those which refer to Jesus "becoming" God refer to a previous "eternal round".

This is highly simplified, but I wanted to be as direct as possible to explain what the others here are alluding to. I don't know why this concept is so clear to members of our church but creates such a problem for creedal Christians.

It's so simple really.

But note that you still have not answered my question above, and I will keep repeating it til you do. As the thread progresses, it will become clear you are not facing the issue, and then you will disappear as usual and start a new thread asking the same sort of questions all over again.

Usual stuff. I wish the people who follow your website could actually see your avoidance in action.