Has Jesus always been a God?

[Skywalker]

I find myself in agreement with the fact that we don't know what Rob means by "always."

Our universe, according to current science, began with a big bang around thirteen billion years ago. Around five billion years ago, Earth was formed, and 3.8 billion years ago life began on earth as simple cells. Two hundred thousand years ago, humanity began.

During all of these events, Jesus was and continues to be God the Creator.

During all of these events, God the Father was and continues to be God the Father.

This is all we know, this is our universe, and it is all we are concerned with.

[mfbukowski]

Thanks, Judge. I wondered if I was so opaque that nobody understood that I asked Rob to say sum'in about the text.

I think we both aspire at least to translucence if not transparency, but then again I can't wait until I at least master photosynthesis. Eating is such a bother.

[mfbukowski]

This is all we know, this is our universe, and it is all we are concerned with.

As I said before, we confuse the creedals because we answer questions they have not even thought of. It's just to big for them to even conceive.

[urroner]

In the ancient world, was there a concept of "infinity" like we have it today? Did they have the same concept of "no beginning" and "no ending" like we do today?

[BCSpace]

The position you articulate is what I understand to be the standard LDS doctrine.

I do my best to so articulate.

For some reason, several Mormons here vehemently deny it and even claim I'm "quote mining."

What precisely, is being claimed that is contrary to LDS doctrine?

[mfbukowski]

For those interested in the Liar's Paradox, this is a good discussion.

The proposition which is contradictory is that "God became eternal", which is essentially what the KFD says.

As the article points out, one must resort to a "hierarchy of languages" to resolve such paradoxes. That means that the point of view must shift from the context of the proposition to another context, "higher" than the propositional context to show why the contradiction is an illusion.

It's like a magic trick by David Copperfield- if you move to a different point of view, say behind the mirror or whatever, the illusion, the paradox goes away.

You see how the contradiction is not one at all.

Incidentally this also relates to why the propositions of science and those of religion never actually conflict, because each are from a different point of view- one subjective and the other objective.

But that is for another thread.

Edit- by the way, for the sake of my ego, I don't think anyone has ever pointed this out before. If anyone knows of someone, tell me. My ego needs deflation on a regular basis anyway. Just ask my wife!

[Flyonthewall]

We believe Jesus was God/a God since before the foundation of the world.

Mosiah

5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

This is straight from scripture, straight from canon. We believe Jesus was the Lord Omnipotent from all eternity to all eternity.

Why is there even a question? Quantify "all eternity" and there is the answer.

[Vance]

We believe Jesus was God/a God since before the foundation of the world.

Mosiah

5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

This is straight from scripture, straight from canon. We believe Jesus was the Lord Omnipotent from all eternity to all eternity.

Why is there even a question? Quantify "all eternity" and there is the answer.

Well, we do know that the hills can be everlasting.

Gen. 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

"Everlasting" is also used to describe God.

Gen. 21:33

[Flyonthewall]

Well, we do know that the hills can be everlasting.

Gen. 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

"Everlasting" is also used to describe God.

Gen. 21:33

[Thunderfire]

If you are LDS, I would like your answer to this question. Has Jesus always been a God, or did he become a God? Feel free to offer any support for your view, if you like.

While I am not LDS I would still like to answer! First, I would not say that Jesus has always been "a God", he is "the God". There is none other. The Gospel of John begins by telling us that all things were made by him and without him nothing was made. In him is life and that life is the life of man. Paul goes on to add that Jesus is the image of the "invisible God" and then repeats the portion how all things were made by him and for him.

Where the LDS scriptures differ comes from a reference in the Book of Mormon which throws out a trintarian belief in the Godhead. It speaks of one God appearing in three forms. Not the typical Evangelical belief of three (3) separate individuals (or entities) being God.

"And because he dwells in the flesh, he shall be called the Son of God; and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father and the Son-the Father because he was conceived by the power of God and the Son because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son, they are one God, the very eternal Father of heaven and of earth..." Mosiah 8:29-31 RLDS edition

[mfbukowski]

There is a phrase in Latin which the Catholics used to use all the time before they went to local languages: "Per omnia saecula saeculorum" which they translate "forever and ever".

As a 15 year old Latin scholar, that never made sense to me at all. What it literally says is: "Through all the world of the worlds".

I could never figure out how there could be a "world" of worlds.

Now it makes perfect sense to me.

Forever AND ever. Seems a little redundant until you think about it.

[Facsimile 3]

If you are LDS, I would like your answer to this question. Has Jesus always been a God, or did he become a God? Feel free to offer any support for your view, if you like.

By "always" I mean everlastingly from all eternity, with no beginning to his status or nature as a God.

Was God "always" God before he created time?

Before there was time, was there an "always"?

Don't blow this off- I promise to keep nagging you until you answer. This is the answer to your question. We have teachings about things you don't even dream of.

LOL

Whenever I respond to Rob with a way to diffuse the argument, I always get put on ignore.

But despite this knowledge gained by experience I still try every once in a while.

I'm still waiting for him to respond to my post (#134, #135) on the Earning Salvation thread.

[Vance]

The KJV uses "eternal" three times in the Old Testament. From the source I use to help me better understand the Hebrew Bible, the word used in Deut. 33:27 is "qdm" which literally means "aforetime". The word used in Isa 57:15 is "od" which literally means "future". The word used in Isa 60:15 is "oulm" which literally means "eon".

And from a dictionary, "eon" means

n.1. An immeasurable or infinite space of time; eternity; a long space of time; an age.

2. (Gnostic Philos.) One of the embodiments of the divine attributes of the Eternal Being.

For what it is worth.

[mysteryman]

BCSpace,

The position you articulate is what I understand to be the standard LDS doctrine. For some reason, several Mormons here vehemently deny it and even claim I'm "quote mining."

Rob, the problem is that there isn't necessarily a "standard LDS doctrine." Many of the Mormons here that say they believe Jesus has always been God are likely telling the truth, that is what they believe. Mormonism has a wide spectrum of thought and different beliefs. Other Mormons here do seem to playing words games such as "to us" Jesus has always been god, what do you mean by "eternity", what do you mean by "always." I know exactly what you mean by this question so here is what I would say. When Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon I believe he thought Jesus had always been God; the Book of Mormon is clear on this unless you play word games. By the 1840s however, I think Smith's beliefs and teachings had shifted to the idea that Jesus had to become a god sometime in the past. As is clear by your quotes (there are many more similar quotes out there I am certain), this seems to have been the teaching for a long time from Brigham Young, Joseph Fielding Smith, Bruce R. McConkie, etc. However, in more recent times you will likely not find as many of those kind of quotes teaching that Jesus became god. I think this is due by Mormons desperately trying to be considered Christian. I think men like Stephen Robinson and now Robert Millet (I think Millet has changed since co-authoring books with Joseph McConkie) have had a major influence on moving Mormonism closer to Evangelicals. Those are just my thoughts on it.

[Brade]

Has Jesus always been a God, or did he become a God?

I believe that Jesus became a God and has not always been one. I'm kinda surprised by all the LDS stating otherwise.

[Brenda]

So, by inference, your explanation is that these statements are false teaching?

Gervin, I believe our doctrine is much more brief than those statements. And those statements were all made by devote men of our church. What happens is that as you study the gospel, the Spirit leads you into deeper levels of understanding, that God feels you are ready for. As for the Church as a whole, we are not all there yet, and so the actual doctrine of our Church does not go into that much detail. Are those statements true? Maybe. Probably. But yet none of this is actually part of our formal doctrine, even though it hints or points us in that direction.

So you see, our answers to you may seem incomplete and vague, because that's what we have. That's the factual answer. The rest is personal reasoning and perhaps personal revelation. Looking at the caliber of men named, it IS probably personal revelation. But since I haven't done the study that they have, I personally don't KNOW it's true for myself. I can choose to believe it or not. As far as my own salvation and exaltation, it just isn't important to me whether or not Jesus has always been a God, as long as He is Savior and Redeemer to me now.

The important thing is that I have a testimony of the reality of God -- who He is, why He is, and how I can return to Him.

Hope this helps.

[mapman]

I don't know. I guess I've always assumed he became part of the Godhead at one point in time, but now that I think about it I'm not so sure.

[zerinus]

If you are LDS, I would like your answer to this question. Has Jesus always been a God, or did he become a God? Feel free to offer any support for your view, if you like.

By "always" I mean everlastingly from all eternity, with no beginning to his status or nature as a God.

Yes, as taught in the Book of Mormon, which you already seem to be familiar with.

Please, anyone, explain the following statements:

• [*]

[consiglieri]

Although admitting to holding a minority Mormon view, I am personally of the belief that Jesus became God some time ago, having been exalted from the world on which he originally dwelt in mortality (i.e., not this world and not 2,000 years ago).

It makes no sense to me that God has always been God and that God is incapable of progression.

If such were the case, it would make me weep for Him.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

John 14

:

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father:

for my Father is greater than I

.

How can one God be greater than another God

[zerinus]

There goes the whole co-equal thing from the nicean creed. How can they be co-equal and yet one is greater than the other.

Their plight is actually a lot worse than that.

[mfbukowski]

Although admitting to holding a minority Mormon view, I am personally of the belief that Jesus became God some time ago, having been exalted from the world on which he originally dwelt in mortality (i.e., not this world and not 2,000 years ago).

It makes no sense to me that God has always been God and that God is incapable of progression.

If such were the case, it would make me weep for Him.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

So you believe in reincarnation?

[Rob Bowman]

urroner,

Since I'm not LDS, I "have no dog in this hunt" (as my Southern friends would say). My understanding is that in LDS doctrine Jesus has not always been God. The text in D&C seems perfectly consistent with that LDS understanding.

Rob, how do you interpret that text? If Jesus has always been God and will always be God and if being God requires eternal perfection, how can Jesus not ever not have complete fullness or is it possible that during his life, Jesus wasn't God?

[Rob Bowman]

nackhadlow,

I'm sorry if I have made it a chore to be polite with me.

Here is a quick summary of what confronts me.

1. The Book of Mormon references to Jesus as the Eternal God, which I agree in their original context meant that Jesus has always been God

2. Occasional uses of this terminology in LDS religious discourse

3. No explicit statements from any LDS prophet or GA affirming that Jesus has always been God

4. A good number of statements from GAs and other LDS teachers, including contemporary statements, explicitly denying that Jesus has always been God

5. The teaching of Joseph Smith toward the end of his life, affirmed by most LDS authorities at least until recently, that God the Father himself has not always been God, but became God--which would obviously imply the same about his son Jesus.

Faced with all this information, I conclude that the dominant LDS doctrinal position from no later than 1844 until at least quite recently is that Jesus has not always been God, but that he became God. Now, if I'm mistaken about this, I'm happy to be corrected. But the evidence I have marshaled for this conclusion needs to be fully addressed.

Actually, Rob, I can, and do.

Perhaps I was unclear. I'm trying very hard to be polite with you, Rob.

The publications affirm the Eternity of the Godhood of Christ. What they don't do is say, "Well, some have said and believed that before Jesus was the Eternal God, Jehovah, of the Old Testament, that he wasn't really God. We deny that, and affirm that when the scriptures and publications say Jesus is the Eternal God, it's safe for you to assume it means that Jesus really always was God."

I think it starts to get silly when such specific nitty-gritty pro-affirmations or rejections of past tangential teachings are required to prove that the Church really doesn't institutionally teach today what a critic points out some individuals did teach in the past, or may privately or individually continue to believe today.

[Rob Bowman]

Mola,

I'm going to try to keep this thread focused on the topic of the original post. Thanks for understanding.

There goes the whole co-equal thing from the nicean creed. How can they be co-equal and yet one is greater than the other.