Has Jesus always been a God?

[Vance]

Rob

As always, you have chosen to ignore me.

Was God "always" God before he created time?

Before there was time, was there an "always"?

Don't blow this off- I promise to keep nagging you until you answer. This is the answer to your question. We have teachings about things you don't even dream of.

When you see quotes speaking of "becoming" God, those are referring to "times" "before" this "current eternity". They could be "after" this current eternity for that matter, but it makes it easier to think about if we stick to the idea that they were "before".

This sounds paradoxical, which in a sense it is. But the paradox is easily explained by reference to something called the "Liar's Paradox"- which you can google if you actually want the logical proof behind it all.

The point is, one must take a point of view "outside" the paradox in order to resolve it.

So stepping outside of any time reference, one can resolve the above apparently contradictory quotes by seeing each eternity as "one eternal round"

There are successive "eternities" on this view- as some scientists are now postulating there are successive Big Bangs.

So one could "become" a God in one "eternity" and then rule over the next "eternity" as an eternal God for that particular eternity.

So the references to God being the same "forever" refer to THIS eternity alone, while those which refer to Jesus "becoming" God refer to a previous "eternal round".

This is highly simplified, but I wanted to be as direct as possible to explain what the others here are alluding to. I don't know why this concept is so clear to members of our church but creates such a problem for creedal Christians.

It's so simple really.

But note that you still have not answered my question above, and I will keep repeating it til you do. As the thread progresses, it will become clear you are not facing the issue, and then you will disappear as usual and start a new thread asking the same sort of questions all over again.

Usual stuff. I wish the people who follow your website could actually see your avoidance in action.

Rob, has come and gone, again, without answering. It makes one wonder if he has an answer.

[Vance]

I wonder if Rob can answer this question.

Can a person be a God without having all power?

[mfbukowski]

I wonder if Rob can answer this question.

Can a person be a God without having all power?

He has all the power there is available for a God to have without ceasing to be a God. So yes, he is "omnipotent". He can do anything that can be done.

Anything else cannot be done, because to do so would cause him to not be a God, and so he couldn't do it.

It is the same logical contradiction as making a rock so big he cannot lift it.

[Vance]

He has all the power there is available for a God to have without ceasing to be a God. So yes, he is "omnipotent". He can do anything that can be done.

Anything else cannot be done, because to do so would cause him to not be a God, and so he couldn't do it.

It is the same logical contradiction as making a rock so big he cannot lift it.

Well, you and I know the answer but does Rob?

[urroner]

While I am not LDS I would still like to answer! First, I would not say that Jesus has always been "a God", he is "the God". There is none other. The Gospel of John begins by telling us that all things were made by him and without him nothing was made. In him is life and that life is the life of man. Paul goes on to add that Jesus is the image of the "invisible God" and then repeats the portion how all things were made by him and for him.

This link goes to a site where a very ancient version of the Gospel of John written in Coptic is translated - The Coptic Version of the New Testament in the Southern Dialect, vol. III

1:1 ?? ????????? ??????? ????????, ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ??????. ??? ???????? ?? ?????

In the beginning existed the Word, and the Word existed with God, and the Word was a God.

1:2 ??? ?? ????????? ??????? ???? ??????.

In the beginning this one existed with God.

1:3 ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???????. ??? ????? ??? ???? ????. ??????????

Everything came into being through him, and without him nothing came into being. That which came into being

1:4 ???? ????? ?? ????. ??? ???? ?? ??????? ??????.

within him was Life, and Life was the light of mankind.

One thing, in ancient Coptic, IIRC, there is no upper or lower case letters, so there was no "God," rather is was always "god," so the last part of the first verse would read "and the word was a god."

[erichard]

...

It's so simple really.

...

Hi,

What is simple to me is that the Father was truly a "father" and the Son was truly a "son". That further means that the Father is a Son to His Father. And so forth from all eternity.

My answer to the OP is simple: Jesus was a finite being like us. As such, he had to progress grace for grace until he gained his exaltation as the Son of God. But the lineage of Jesus has no beginning. There never has been a time that there was not a being like our Jesus.

In the creeds there are two Jesuses wrapped into one. The finite, physical, begotten (=created), mortal Jesus of Nazareth AND the infinite, immaterial, uncreated, immortal second person of the Trinity.

The uncreated immaterial Jesus must be thus the REAL Jesus. Having two Jesuses, one who is totally different than us, and who is not a Son in any normal sense of the word, is confusing to those of us who read about one physical Jesus in the Bible and think of Jesus in terms of what we read-- not in Greek philosophical reinterpretation.

Richard

[mfbukowski]

The uncreated immaterial Jesus must be thus the REAL Jesus. Having two Jesuses, one who is totally different than us, and who is not a Son in any normal sense of the word, is confusing to those of us who read about one physical Jesus in the Bible and think of Jesus in terms of what we read-- not in Greek philosophical reinterpretation.

Richard

I don't know what you are talking about, to be honest. There are not two Jesuses, He is the Son of God, and what I wrote has nothing whatsoever to do with Greek philosophy.

Read John chapter 1.

[mfbukowski]

Well, you and I know the answer but does Rob?

Sorry.

He won't answer.

He never answers me. I guess it's time to call him out again.

ROB YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED ME!

[Nathair/|\]

If You Could Hie to Kolob

3. The works of God continue,

And worlds and lives abound;

Improvement and progression

Have one eternal round.

There is no end to matter;

There is no end to space;

There is no end to spirit;

There is no end to race.

[mfbukowski]

If You Could Hie to Kolob

I love that lyric!

[Nathair/|\]

I love that lyric!

It's my favorite hymn.

[Zakuska]

Answer: how do you explain these verses from the Bible:

Colossians 1

:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God,

the firstborn of every creature:

Revelation 3

:

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness,

the beginning of the creation of God;

How can Jesus be the

[Zakuska]

There goes the whole co-equal thing from the nicean creed. How can they be co-equal and yet one is greater than the other.

Better yet...

1 Cor 15

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

How can they be co-equal if one is "subject" and subordinate to another?

[zerinus]

nackhadlow,

I'm sorry if I have made it a chore to be polite with me.

Here is a quick summary of what confronts me.

1. The Book of Mormon references to Jesus as the Eternal God, which I agree in their original context meant that Jesus has always been God

2. Occasional uses of this terminology in LDS religious discourse

3. No explicit statements from any LDS prophet or GA affirming that Jesus has always been God

4. A good number of statements from GAs and other LDS teachers, including contemporary statements, explicitly denying that Jesus has always been God

5. The teaching of Joseph Smith toward the end of his life, affirmed by most LDS authorities at least until recently, that God the Father himself has not always been God, but became God--which would obviously imply the same about his son Jesus.

Faced with all this information, I conclude that the dominant LDS doctrinal position from no later than 1844 until at least quite recently is that Jesus has not always been God, but that he became God. Now, if I'm mistaken about this, I'm happy to be corrected. But the evidence I have marshaled for this conclusion needs to be fully addressed.

What you are overlooking is that Christian theology is not as simple as that. There are passages in the Bible that say Jesus is God and has always been God, and there are passages that suggest otherwise, which I and others had shown you. How does one reconcile these? The answer is that it is not easy. We simply have to accept that there are mysteries that only God knows and we don't. We take His word on faith that those scriptures are true even though they may appear to teach contradictory doctrines, and we bide our time until one day in this world or in the next God decides to make the mystery known to us. In the mean time we accept the scriptures as they are, and accept and teach the doctrine exactly as it is taught in the word of God, contradictory though they may appear to us at first sight. That apparent contradiction in the Bible also appears in Mormon scriptures, which makes them consistent with the Bible. In fact, the divinity and eternal nature of Jesus Christ is more clearly taught and emphasized in modern LDS scripture than it is in the Bible.

[zerinus]

Rob, has come and gone, again, without answering. It makes one wonder if he has an answer.

LOL! Rob has been coming and going, again and again, without answering, ever since he decided to camped on MADB

[zerinus]

Easy... Evangliclas play word games and mental gymnastics with these verses to harmonize them with their pre-defined theology.

Lets add a few...

1 Cor 15

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

How can Christ deliver a kingdom to himself?

If Christ is "co-eteneral" and "co-equal" with God, why is he then Subject unto him?

Thank you. You can find scriptures by the bucket load to debunk Evangelicalism if you wanted to look for them.

[erichard]

I don't know what you are talking about, to be honest. There are not two Jesuses, He is the Son of God, and what I wrote has nothing whatsoever to do with Greek philosophy.

Read John chapter 1.

Excuse me mfbukowski.

I was not critiquing your thoughts. Your thoughts just triggered my thoughts.

Notice I said "In the creeds" there are two Jesuses wrapped into one. I was talking about what Rob is apparently trying to sell in this thread: Mormons should get with the crowd and accept the creedal Bible understanding.

So again I said: "In the creeds", the uncreated immaterial Jesus must be thus the REAL Jesus.

And said: "In the creeds", having two Jesuses, one who is totally different than us, and who is not a Son in any normal sense of the word, is confusing to those of us who read about one physical Jesus in the Bible and think of Jesus in terms of what we read-- not in (the creedal) Greek philosophical reinterpretation.

Have I explained my thoughts well enough now?

Richard

[Rob Bowman]

Benjamin,

Yes, Jesus has always been God.

Rob - I am curious how you would answer this question. Has Jesus always been God?

[Rob Bowman]

mfbukowski,

You wrote:

Rob

As always, you have chosen to ignore me.

How annoying. I have responded to posts from you on numerous occasions.

As you may have noticed, I have had a lot of people posting responses on this thread. There are other threads as well. I have had a lot of other things to do. Believe me, if I decide to ignore you, I'll TELL you, as I told Zerinus.

I have other things to do this afternoon, and I don't know when I'll have a chance to get back on here. Try not to take it personally when someone doesn't get around to responding to your post, or doesn't do so in what you consider a timely fashion. I just replied to Dan on another thread after a three-month delay. Life is busy.

[zerinus]

Benjamin,

Yes, Jesus has always been God.

Was He also the "firstborn of every creature," the "beginning of the creations of God"?

Who was greater, Him or His Father? If it was His Father, what does that say about Him? In what sense was He less great? Was He younger? Did He have less power? Did He have less money? Did He have inferior intelligence? Was He less handsome?

Who prayed to who? Who "ascended" to Whom? Who worshiped Whom? Was He preying to Himself all along and didn't tell us? Did He ascend to Himself? Did He worship Himself?

[zerinus]

if I decide to ignore you, I'll TELL you, as I told Zerinus.

That is convenient, I am sure; but if you thought I would let you get away with it, you are wrong.

[Bernard Gui]

Here is an official doctrinal exposition by the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12, June 30, 1916.

It was republished in the Ensign, April 2002. I'm not going to give excerpts, because the exposition

must be taken as a whole. It is worth the time to read it if one wishes to understand the role of

Jesus as Father and Son.

Bernard

http://www.schoolofabraham.com/fatherandson.htm

James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, vol. 5, 23-34.

The Father and the Son, June 30, 1916

THE FATHER AND THE SON

A Doctrinal Exposition by The First Presidency and The Twelve

The scriptures plainly and repeatedly affirm that God is the Creator of the earth and the heavens and all things that in them are. In the sense so expressed the Creator is an Organizer. God created the earth as an organized sphere; but He certainly did not create, in the sense of bringing into primal existence, the ultimate elements of the materials of which the earth consists, for "the elements are eternal" (Doc. & Cov. 93:33).

So also life is eternal, and not created; but life, or the vital force, may be infused into organized matter, though the details of the process have not been revealed unto man. For illustrative instances see Genesis 2:7; Moses 3:7; and Abraham 5:7. Each of these scriptures states that God breathed into the body of man the breath of life. See further Moses 3:19, for the statement that God breathed the breath of life into the bodies of the beasts and birds. God showed unto Abraham "the intelligences that were organized before the world was"; and by "intelligences" we are to understand personal "spirits" (Abraham 3:22, 23); nevertheless, we are expressly told that "Intelligence" that is, "the light of truth was not created or made, neither indeed can be" (Doc. & Cov. 93:29).

The term "Father" as applied to Deity occurs in sacred writ with plainly different meanings. Each of the four significations specified in the following treatment should be carefully segregated.

1. "Father" as Literal Parent

Scriptures embodying the ordinary signification-literally that of Parent-are too numerous and specific to require citation. The purport of these scriptures is to the effect that God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title "Elohim," is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and of the spirits of the human race. Elohim is the Father in every sense in which Jesus Christ is so designated, and distinctively He is the Father of spirits. Thus we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews: "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence; shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (Hebrews 12:9). In view of this fact we are taught by Jesus Christ to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name."

Jesus Christ applies to Himself both titles, "Son" and "Father." Indeed, He specifically said to the brother of Jared: "Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son" (Ether 3:14). Jesus Christ is the Son of Elohim both as spiritual and bodily offspring; that is to say, Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh, and which body died on the cross and was afterward taken up by the process of resurrection, and is now the immortalized tabernacle of the eternal spirit of our Lord and Savior. No extended explanation of the title "Son of God" as applied to Jesus Christ appears necessary.

2. "Father" as Creator

A second scriptural meaning of "Father" is that of Creator, e. g. in passages referring to any one of the Godhead as "The Father of the heavens and of the earth and all things that in them are" (Ether 4:7; see also Alma 11:38, 39 and Mosiah 15:4).

God is not the Father of the earth as one of the worlds in space, nor of the heavenly bodies in whole or in part, nor of the inanimate objects and the plants and the animals upon the earth, in the literal sense in which He is the Father of the spirits of mankind. Therefore, scriptures that refer to God in any way as the Father of the heavens and the earth are to be understood as signifying that God is the Maker, the Organizer, the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

With this meaning, as the context shows in every case, Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ the Son of Elohim, is called "the Father," and even "the very eternal Father of heaven and of earth" (see passages before cited, and also Mosiah 16:15). With analogous meaning Jesus Christ is called "The Everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6; compare 2 Nephi 19:6). The descriptive titles "Everlasting" and "Eternal" in the foregoing texts are synonymous.

That Jesus Christ, whom we also know as Jehovah, was the executive of the Father, Elohim, in the work of creation is set forth in the book "Jesus the Christ" Chapter 4. Jesus Christ, being the Creator, is consistently called the Father of heaven and earth in the sense explained above; and since His creations are of eternal quality He is very properly called the Eternal Father of heaven and earth.

3. Jesus Christ the "Father" of Those Who Abide in His Gospel

A third sense in which Jesus Christ is regarded as the "Father" has reference to the relationship between Him and those who accept His Gospel and thereby become heirs of eternal life. Following are a few of the scriptures illustrating this meaning.

In the fervent prayer offered just prior to His entrance into Gethsemane, Jesus Christ supplicated His Father in behalf of those whom the Father had given unto Him, specifically the apostles, and, more generally, all who would accept and abide in the Gospel through the ministry of the apostles. Read in our Lord's own words the solemn affirmation that those for whom He particularly prayed were His own, and that His Father had given them unto Him: "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:6-12).

And further: "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world" (John 17:20-24).

To His faithful servants in the present dispensation the Lord has said: "Fear not, little children; for you are mine, and I have overcome the world, and you are of them that my Father hath given me" (Doc. & Cov. 50:41).

Salvation is attainable only through compliance with the laws and ordinances of the Gospel; and all who are thus saved become sons and daughters unto God in a distinctive sense. In a revelation given through Joseph the Prophet to Emma Smith the Lord Jesus addressed the woman as "My daughter," and said: "for verily I say unto you, all those who receive my gospel are sons and daughters in my kingdom" (Doc. & Cov. 25:1). In many instances the Lord has addressed men as His sons (e. g. Doc. & Cov. 9:1; 34:3; 121:7).

That by obedience to the Gospel men may become sons of God, both as sons of Jesus Christ, and, through Him, as sons of His Father, is set forth in many revelations given in the current dispensation. Thus we read in an utterance of the Lord Jesus Christ to Hyrum Smith in 1829: "Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I am the life and the light of the world. I am the same who came unto my own and my own received me not; But verily, verily, I say unto you, that as many as receive me, to them will I give power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on my name. Amen." (Doc. & Cov. 11:28-30). To Orson Pratt the Lord spoke through Joseph the Seer, in 1830: "My son Orson, hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer; The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not; Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might come the sons of God: wherefore you are my son" (Doc. & Cov. 34:1-3). In 1830 the Lord thus addressed Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon: "Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and for ever. I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one" (Doc. & Cov. 35:1-2). Consider also the following given in 1831: "Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ, The light and the life of the world; a light which shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not: The same which came in the meridian of time unto my own, and my own received me not; But to as many as received me, gave I power to become my sons, and even so will I give unto as many as will receive me, power to become my sons" (Doc. & Cov. 39:1-4). In a revelation given through Joseph Smith in March, 1831 we read: "For verily I say unto you that I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the light and the life of the world-a light that shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not. I came unto my own, and my own received me not; but unto as many as received me, gave I power to do many miracles, and to become the sons of God, and even unto them that believed on my name gave I power to obtain eternal life" (Doc. & Cov. 45:7-.

A forceful exposition of this relationship between Jesus Christ as the Father and those who comply with the requirements of the Gospel as His children was given by Abinadi, centuries before our Lord's birth in the flesh: "And now I say unto you. Who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin, he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed? Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord; I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins; I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God: For these are they whose sins he has borne; these are they for whom he has died, to redeem them from their transgressions. And now, are they not his seed? Yea, and are not the prophets, every one that has opened his mouth to prophesy, that has not fallen into transgression; I mean all the holy prophets ever since the world began? I say unto you that they are his seed" (Mosiah 15:10-13).

In tragic contrast with the blessed state of those who become children of God through obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ is that of the unregenerate, who are specifically called the children of the devil. Note the words of Christ, while in the flesh, to certain wicked Jews who boasted of their Abrahamic lineage: "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Ye do the deeds of your father. If God were your Father, ye would love me. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do" (John 8:39, 41, 42, 44). Thus Satan is designated as the father of the wicked, though we cannot assume any personal relationship of parent and children as existing between him and them. A combined illustration showing that the righteous are the children of God and the wicked the children of the devil appears in the parable of the Tares: "The good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one" (Matt. 13:38).

Men may become children of Jesus Christ by being born anew-born of God, as the inspired word states: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother" (I John 3:8-10).

Those who have been born unto God through obedience to the Gospel may by valiant devotion to righteousness obtain exaltation and even reach the status of Godhood. Of such we read: "Wherefore, as it is written, they are Gods, even the sons of God" (Doc. & Cov. 76:58; compare 132:20, and contrast paragraph 17 in same section; see also paragraph 37). Yet, though they be Gods they are still subject to Jesus Christ as their Father in this exalted relationship; and so we read in the paragraph following the above quotation: "and they are Christ's and Christ is God's" (76:59).

By the new birth-that of water and the Spirit-mankind may become children of Jesus Christ, being through the means by Him provided "begotten sons and daughters unto God" (Doc. & Cov. 76:2). This solemn truth is further emphasized in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ given through Joseph Smith in 1833: "And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the firstborn; And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the firstborn" (Doc. & Cov. 93:21, 22). For such figurative use of the term "begotten" in application to those who are born unto God see Paul's explanation: "for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel" (I Cor. 4:15). An analogous instance of sonship attained by righteous service is found in the revelation relating to the order and functions of Priesthood, given in 1832: "For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two Priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies: They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God" (Doc. & Cov. 84:33, 34).

If it be proper to speak of those who accept and abide in the Gospel as Christ's sons and daughters-and upon this matter the scriptures are explicit and cannot be gainsaid nor denied-it-is consistently proper to speak of Jesus Christ as the Father of the righteous, they having become His children and He having been made their Father through the second birth-the baptismal regeneration.

4. Jesus Christ the "Father" By Divine Investiture of Authority

A fourth reason for applying the title "Father" to Jesus Christ is found in the fact that in all His dealings with the human family Jesus the Son has represented and yet represents Elohim His Father in power and authority. This is true of Christ in His preexistent, antemortal, or unembodied state, in the which He was known as Jehovah; also during His embodiment in the flesh; and during His labors as a disembodied spirit in the realm of the dead; and since that period in His resurrected state. To the Jews He said: "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30; see also 17:11, 22); yet He declared "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28); and further, "I am come in my Father's name" (John 5:43; see also 10:25). The same truth was declared by Christ Himself to the Nephites (see 3 Nephi 20:35 and 28:10), and has been reaffirmed by revelation in the present dispensation (Doc. & Gov. 50:43). Thus the Father placed His name upon the Son; and Jesus Christ spoke and ministered in and through the Father's name; and so far as power, authority and Godship are concerned His words and acts were and are those of the Father.

We read, by way of analogy, that God placed His name upon or in the Angel who was assigned to special ministry unto the people of Israel during the exodus. Of that Angel the Lord said: "Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him" (Exodus 23:21).

The ancient apostle, John, was visited by an angel who ministered and spoke in the name of Jesus Christ. As we read: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" (Revelation 1:1). John was about to worship the angelic being who spoke in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but was forbidden: "And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God" (Rev. 22:8, 9). And then the angel continued to speak as though he were the Lord Himself: "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (verses 12, 13). The resurrected Lord, Jesus Christ, who had been exalted to the right hand of God His Father, had placed His name upon the angel sent to John, and the angel spoke in the first person, saying "I come quickly," "I am Alpha and Omega," though he meant that Jesus Christ would come, and that Jesus Christ was Alpha and Omega.

None of these considerations, however, can change in the least degree the solemn fact of the literal relationship of Father and Son between Elohim and Jesus Christ. Among the spirit children of Elohim the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors. Following are affirmative scriptures bearing upon this great truth. Paul, writing to the Colossians, says of Jesus Christ: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell" (Colossians 1:15-19). From this scripture we learn that Jesus Christ was "the firstborn of every creature" and it is evident that the seniority here expressed must be with respect to antemortal existence, for Christ was not the senior of all mortals in the flesh. He is further designated as "the firstborn from the dead" this having reference to Him as the first to be resurrected from the dead, or as elsewhere written "the first fruits of them that slept" (I Corinthians 15:20, see also verse 23); and "the first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5; compare Acts 26:23). The writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews affirms the status of Jesus Christ as the firstborn of the spirit children of His Father, and extols the preeminence of the Christ when tabernacled in flesh: "And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him" (Hebrews 1:6; read the preceding verses). That the spirits who were juniors to Christ were predestined to be born in the image of their Elder Brother is thus attested by Paul: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:28, 29). John the Revelator was commanded to write to the head of the Laodicean church, as the words of the Lord Jesus Christ: "These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14). In the course of a revelation given through Joseph Smith in May, 1833, the Lord Jesus Christ said as before cited: "And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the firstborn" (Doc. & Cov. 93:21). A later verse makes plain the fact that human beings generally were similarly existent in spirit state prior to their embodiment in the flesh: "Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth" (verse 23).

There is no impropriety, therefore, in speaking of Jesus Christ as the Elder Brother of the rest of human kind. That He is by spiritual birth Brother to the rest of us is indicated in Hebrews: "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Hebrews 2:17). Let it not be forgotten, however, that He is essentially greater than any and all others, by reason (1) of His seniority as the oldest or firstborn; (2) of His unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal, or resurrected and glorified, Father; (3) of His selection and foreordination as the one and only Redeemer and Savior of the race; and (4) of His transcendent sinlessness.

Jesus Christ is not the Father of the spirits who have taken or yet shall take bodies upon this earth, for He is one of them. He is The Son, as they are sons or daughters of Elohim. So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.

[Bernard Gui]

Let me mine some quotes from official First Presidency statements. For Rob's benefit, these are

considered LDS doctrine.

...Man [is] the direct and lineal offspring of Deity. God Himself is an exalted man, perfected, enthroned,

and supreme...He organized the earth and all that it contains, from spirit, and element, which exist coeternally

with himself...Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and

even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the

undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving

into a God. ("The Origin of Man," First Presidency statement, 1909, reprinted in Ensign, February 202)

...life is eternal, and not created; but life, or the vital force, may be infused into organized matter, though the

details of the process have not been revealed to man...God the Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-

title "Elohim," is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and of the spirits of the human race...by

obedience to the gospel men may becomes sons of God, both as sons of Jesus Christ, and through him, as

sons of His Father...those who have been born unto God through obedience to the gospel may by valiant

devotion to righteousness obtain exaltation and even reach the status of godhood...yet though they be gods

they are still subject to Jesus Christ as their Father in this exalted relationship.

So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation,

we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become the parents of spirit offspring.

Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to

them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the

glorified parents have attained exaltation. ("The Father and the Son," official exposition of the First Presidency

and Quorum of the 12, June 30, 1916, reprinted in The Ensign, April 2002)

Here is my understanding...you may disagree...

Every child of God possesses an eternal, uncreated life force.

Every child of God has the real and inherited potential of becoming like God.

In this sense, Jesus has been God from eternity to eternity, and so will those who are exalted because of His atonement

Bernard

[mfbukowski]

mfbukowski,

You wrote:

How annoying. I have responded to posts from you on numerous occasions.

As you may have noticed, I have had a lot of people posting responses on this thread. There are other threads as well. I have had a lot of other things to do. Believe me, if I decide to ignore you, I'll TELL you, as I told Zerinus.

I have other things to do this afternoon, and I don't know when I'll have a chance to get back on here. Try not to take it personally when someone doesn't get around to responding to your post, or doesn't do so in what you consider a timely fashion. I just replied to Dan on another thread after a three-month delay. Life is busy.

I'll leave it to others to decide if you are avoiding the issue. It is totally clear to me that you don't have a clue about how to answer my points.

That is blatantly obvious.

[Vance]

I wonder if Rob can answer this question.

Can a person be a God without having all power?

He doesn't even have "time" for a "yes or no" question, apparently.