Pornography in Utah

[mbh26]

The reality for most couples seems to be very far from the ideal

It always amazed me in my youth how men could be paying money to increase their sex drive. I never saw a high sex drive as being a blessing. I don't know a lot of things but one thing I am sure of. If a resurrected body functions even remotely close to the way mine did in my 20s, living for eternity under the current set of Mormon rules and restrictions would not be a very happy state.

[MorningStar]

It is a well established fact that if a person does not get a particular nutrient in their diet, they will crave it and will do just about anything to get it into their system -- even if it is unhealthy junk food that provides the substitute. Why should sex be any different? If a man or woman is deprived of something that is hard-wired into our physiological and psychological makeup then they will either become bitter, find someone who will satisfy the longed-for craving, or will find a substitute like porn. Your analogy of alcohol falls flat in that if you put the most ardent supporter of the WofW into a desert, deprive himor her of water for a day, and they give them a keg of beer they will be downing the beer sooner or later.

And alcohol dehydrates you, so it's not going to solve the problem, just as porn isn't a good substitute for real intimacy. An alcoholic with plenty of water will still reach for the alcohol. A man addicted to pornography whose wife is intimate with him frequently will still use porn and often will lose interest in her. Alcohol and porn are about escaping.

[juliann]

http://www.socialcostsofpornography.org/Doran_Industry_Size_Measurement_Social_Costs.pdf

between 80 and 90% of internet pornography consumers seem primarily to consume free internet pornography.

If I recall, this study was about fee payers at a specific location so the question should be....why are more Utahns in the 10% of those who pay a subscription fee? If 80-90% of users weren't even picked up in this study it is not a measure of who uses the most porn.

The websites that distribute this pornography may roughly be divided into three categories: pay sites that allow users to consume pornographic content for a fee, often paid for by credit card; free sites that allow consumers to view either samples or the full photographs and videos without paying; and various versions of Youtube that cater to pornography consumers.

The pay sites usually charge anywhere from $10 to $100 per month for access.2 Some are connected with massive webs of gateway sites. Users who stumble upon one of these gateway sites will be led by a series of links to the main site, where they will have the opportunity to pay for pornographic content.

The free sites may be for-profit ventures typically supported by advertising or personal home pages that contain (sometimes illegally copied) pornographic content. The pornographic versions of Youtube are for-profit ventures, and the pornographic content on them is sometimes produced by amateurs.

[ERayR]

Lets face it more people of all religions and persuasions are using porn. LDS are no exception and it has becoome such a problem that it has been mentioned in priesthood session of conference more than once. I think that a lot of the above mentioned reasons play into this number, and also perhaps some skewed data. That being said I am getting tired of Utah statistics, either good or bad, being used to evaluate the LDS Church. Utah, no matter what, has long since ceased to be a strictly mormon society. So cease with the Utah/Mormon correlations.

[Ivan the Magnificent!]

And alcohol dehydrates you, so it's not going to solve the problem, just as porn isn't a good substitute for real intimacy. An alcoholic with plenty of water will still reach for the alcohol. A man addicted to pornography whose wife is intimate with him frequently will still use porn and often will lose interest in her. Alcohol and porn are about escaping.

Yes, but beer, like cola, would give you enough water to replace that which evaporated through your pores. However, I agree that porn is a poor substitute for true intimacy. I feel sorry for people who ae married to someone who has little interest in sex and porn is the only recourse.

My question is this - what percentage of people who view porn are really addicted to it? Lots of people who drink beer are not alcoholic, so I would assume most people who look at porn are not addicted.

Juliann, you comment:

Your appeal to women to enjoy watching the degradation of women was...interesting.

Is all porn degrading to women? That would imply that showing any form of sex involving a woman is degrading just because it shows a woman. From my understanding there is porn that is designed to appeal to women called "sex positive porn." Since porn viewership among women is growing in popularity I would think that if all the stuff is degrading then women would not be looking at it. They say "sex sells" and that is true for women and men because both are attracted to it.

[MorningStar]

Ivan, most men who use porn have been using it long before they met their wives. It wasn't their fault then and it's not their fault now. Men are expected to have self-control before marriage in the church and that same self-control will help them in marriage. They will not die from lack of sex. It's extremely insulting to women to blame them for their husbands' addiction. With LDS women whose husbands use it, they typically find out they've been lying to them all along, served a mission without ever addressing it, married them in the temple that way thinking that sex would make them stop, but it never does. Sex is not a cure for pornography addiction and lack of sex is not the cause. There are women who try to cure their husbands by having more sex with them, but it doesn't work. They continue to take the blame for one reason or another. I met a woman whose husband was demanding things she was uncomfortable with and because she refused, he actually went to a doctor to ask for medication that would kill his libido. It had to be all or nothing with him. She was willing to having a normal love life with him, but he was so tormented by the fact that he couldn't have whatever twisted thing he wanted and couldn't watch it in a porn, he didn't want to have a sex drive anymore.

Not surprisingly, they are now getting a divorce. I have met many women who feel they are the ones deprived of sex because their husbands are choosing porn over them. I've never heard one of these women say that they have had to turn to porn themselves to get their "needs" met.

President Hinckley told a story about a new bride who caught her husband looking through porn in the hotel gift shop on their wedding night! He went to get something and after waiting for him for a long time, she came down to look for him and there he was. Was that her fault?

[Ivan the Magnificent!]

I ask again, does anyone have a clue as to how many people who look at porn are addicted to porn?

MorningStar, I will try to respond to your post later. Cheers.

[LeSellers]

[Men] will not die from lack of sex.

Not directly, but there are a host of studies that show that prostate cancer, a leading killer of men, is at least accelerated by a lack of sex, or, more explicitly, the lack of regular and frequent sexual activity.

It is also said that nearly all USmerican men over the age of 60 will die with (not necessarily of) prostate cancer.

One is left to draw his own conclusions.

Lehi

[Amensalist]

Ivan you make a good point about viewing porn vs being "addicted" to viewing porn. Drinking beer vs being addicted to beer. Some people like the taste of beer and having a beer satisfies their craving, but they are far from addicted. Some people like to view others having sex, watching a porn clip satisfies their lust. Perhaps engaging in sin isn't the best solution to this epidemic. Yes, it can help some people but I think as time goes on the problem with a particular sin will either increase or diminish depending on a # of variables. If Christ is 1st all sin will eventually cease.

As far as the Utah statistic, I think the other posts on here have pretty much explained why the #'s are what they are. Young demographics, porn being taboo, difficult to access, curiosity by singles, dissatisfaction in marriage, and just pure lust are all good explanations.

I think a good support group, Gods Word, prayer, and a preoccupation with godly people and activities to fill our days with thoughts and ideas that lead us toward God and away from sin are what the "addict" needs. Condemnation, and isolation are not what the "addict" needs.

AMEN

[mrcuff]

Interestingly, this very topic made its way into Jay Leno's opening monologue last week. He mentioned the study of Internet porn in Utah, and then added (I am paraphrasing to the best of my recollection):

"Boy, and you are uncomfortable when you have to worry that only 'one' wife walks in and finds you looking at porn....."

I thought it was pretty funny.

[John Larsen]

I doubt we can conflate Utah with Mormons when it comes to studies anymore, especially in cities with high numbers of people who are not LDS. Something done in Ogden will not have the same implications as something done in Provo.

This finally came to light in the high Utah suicide stats. When analyzed, it turned out that active LDS had a lower than average suicide rate. This is also evident in divorce stats that look high until the temple marriage variable is recognized. In fact, when any religion is factored in it always supports measures of life satisfaction and happiness.

So it is one thing to discuss a Utah stat but quite another to consider it a statement about Mormons without establishing that it was a study of active Mormons.

If the majority of the population of Utah is Mormon, and that population has a lower statistical likelihood of suicide, and Utah has an average suicide rate higher than the average, there can only be one conclusion. Living as a non Mormon in Utah has a hugh statistic likelihood of suicide. One is left to ask, what about living with the Mormons makes one so likely to want to kill one's self?

[John Larsen]

Many studies (and personal experience) suggest that porn is mostly about taboo. It only follows that those societies with stricter attitudes about porn would make porn in and of itself a taboo--and thus paradoxically fetishise porn in and of itself--thus leading to higher consumption rates. If this thesis is true, the societies with stronger social taboo concerning sex or strong religious prohibition will have higher porn consumption rates. That does appear to have a strong correlation.

[juliann]

And here's another "strong correlation" from the sex industry. http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog/view/70_rise_in_german_sex_trafficking_due_to_legal_prostitution

Germany, which has long been touted as an example of how legalized and regulated prostitution can reduce violence and crime in the commercial sex industry, announced this week that human trafficking crimes have increased 70% in the last five years. The vast majority of this increase is women and girls trafficked into commercial sex. Does this bump mean that Germany may be the next country whose experiment in legal prostitution fails?

But don't let unpleasant correlations get in the way of good porn.

[Calm]

Many studies (and personal experience) suggest that porn is mostly about taboo. It only follows that those societies with stricter attitudes about porn would make porn in and of itself a taboo--and thus paradoxically fetishise porn in and of itself--thus leading to higher consumption rates. If this thesis is true, the societies with stronger social taboo concerning sex or strong religious prohibition will have higher porn consumption rates. That does appear to have a strong correlation.

From my experience over in Russia, porn was available on every street corner, out in public with no restrictions and they were doing a very, very brisk business. Russian was also the first country that had the primetime news show with the anchors that stripped.

Once upon a time when porn taboos were typical, I can see that the studies might show that the stronger taboos feed into the higher consumption rates, but now that there are many countries where porn is available on the open market, where there is basically no social backlash, porn consumption is now likely driven by other aspects, including addiction.

Porn taboos have also certainly decreased over the past decades with more porn available and even mainstream in the US, don't really see much of a decrease in consumption rates.

[Nemesis]

Is this thread to discuss the pornography issues or find excuses for it. One is appropriate for our board and one isn't. Keep that in mind when posting and that this thread may not stay open much longer if it continues down the path it's taking.

Nemesis

[mbh26]

And alcohol dehydrates you, so it's not going to solve the problem, just as porn isn't a good substitute for real intimacy.

I guess the real question is good for who? I'm not sure that real intimacy solves the problem either. More often than not relationships cause more grief than they cause satisfaction. Marriage is mostly about self sacrifice and self denial. For men, you'll always have a need that can never be met. There's no real "happy," answer for it. I respect men who marry and have kids. But don't fool yourself by thinking that it made them any happier. Not in this world, I know that for sure.

[Tsuzuki]

I guess the real question is good for who? I'm not sure that real intimacy solves the problem either. More often than not relationships cause more grief than they cause satisfaction. Marriage is mostly about self sacrifice and self denial. For men, you'll always have a need that can never be met. There's no real "happy," answer for it. I respect men who marry and have kids. But don't fool yourself by thinking that it made them any happier. Not in this world, I know that for sure.

That's an awfully negative way of looking at things. It also doesn't reflect reality. Statistically speaking, those in healthy relationships are more happy than those who are single, while those in unhealthy relationships are less happy. Also, marriage is not necessarily about self sacrifice and self denial. It's about commitment, which is one of the three main factors in a healthy relationship, along with intimacy and passion.

Healthy relationships provide more satisfaction than they cause grief.

[Calm]

I guess the real question is good for who? I'm not sure that real intimacy solves the problem either. More often than not relationships cause more grief than they cause satisfaction. Marriage is mostly about self sacrifice and self denial. For men, you'll always have a need that can never be met. There's no real "happy," answer for it. I respect men who marry and have kids. But don't fool yourself by thinking that it made them any happier. Not in this world, I know that for sure.

The stats say something different: http://www.psychpage...tgalligher.html

Some more differing with you: http://health.discov...iage_myths.html

More:

94 percent of married men say they are happier being married than being single

Men from traditional homes are more the

[Ivan the Magnificent!]

Interestingly, this very topic made its way into Jay Leno's opening monologue last week. He mentioned the study of Internet porn in Utah, and then added (I am paraphrasing to the best of my recollection):

"Boy, and you are uncomfortable when you have to worry that only 'one' wife walks in and finds you looking at porn....."

I thought it was pretty funny.

Oh that is just too funny. I really do believe that saying something is wrong, when it is wrong, is good policy for the Church. However, making a huge deal out of it will cause many young people, and older people, to find it more appealing. Once saw a poster outside a church that read, "Make the Bible the #1 best seller in the USA -- ban it." It's just human nature. Make a huge deal out of tattoos and Miami Ink will be the #1 show on Discovery in Utah -- actually, is it already?

One wonders, would the ultimate pornography that would sell in Utah be porn that featured a plot centering around polygamist households? Add to that women all with tattoos and drinking energy drinks and, well, one wonders what the ratings would be. Wow, product placement in such movies, I wonder if that is a missed opportunity for marketers? Maybe they do it already, I have no idea.

But seriously, why hasn't anyone brought up the best argument against porn? It's not that it is violent or degrading because much of it is not, or else women would not be a growing demographic in the market -- and I believe few men are into porn that would degrade women. You have people who are being paid to have sex. I am not sure where it is but in Psalms there is a portion that deals with not delighting in the wrongdoings of others. When people watch this stuff they are indeed getting pleasure from seeing others do wrong things.

[USU78]

Somebody's been reading the scripts to the Emmanuelle movies again . . .

{Big Sigh}

[Tsuzuki]

But seriously, why hasn't anyone brought up the best argument against porn? It's not that it is violent or degrading because much of it is not, or else women would not be a growing demographic in the market -- and I believe few men are into porn that would degrade women. You have people who are being paid to have sex. I am not sure where it is but in Psalms there is a portion that deals with not delighting in the wrongdoings of others. When people watch this stuff they are indeed getting pleasure from seeing others do wrong things.

If that is the best argument against porn, would this make written/drawn/animated porn or porn produced by married couples okay?

[Amensalist]

I guess the real question is good for who? I'm not sure that real intimacy solves the problem either. More often than not relationships cause more grief than they cause satisfaction. Marriage is mostly about self sacrifice and self denial. For men, you'll always have a need that can never be met. There's no real "happy," answer for it. I respect men who marry and have kids. But don't fool yourself by thinking that it made them any happier. Not in this world, I know that for sure.

I agree and disagree.

Having kids HAS definitely made me happier. I live for my kids. I die for my kids. Yes, it is a sacrifice. Yes, there are things in life I wish I had time (and money) to enjoy, however, the blessings that come from children are infinite IMO.

Real intimacy DOES NOT solve the problem of happiness but it can help. The more important things like being in agreement are much more important to a lasting fulfilling marriage. Where a wife & husband agree there you will find Christ. When He is 1st ALL else falls into place. Matthew 6:33.

In the words of the Apostle Paul he said if you are married stay that way, if you are unmarried stay that way. Marriage is for the risk taker, the adventurous, the committed, the one who is prepared to grow through enduring pain suffering heartache love joy peace patience and more. The single person has only himself and his neighbor to worry about. The single person has more time, and is thus more beneficial to spreading the Gospel (hence missionaries are almost always single). The married man has a difficult task. Raise his family and prepare to send sheep out into the midst of wolves, false teachings, heresies, lies, other "Gospels", Darwinian humanistic thought, paganism, self worship, capitalism, religion, and a host of other worldly dogmas that could potentially destroy a persons soul.

It's a crazy world we live in in these last days. I just pray we can come to an agreement on how we are to approach a world so marred by sin. It's becoming more severe as more people are indulging in their flesh rather than repenting of their sinful desires and actions.

REPENT REPENT REPENT

AMEN

[Amensalist]

If that is the best argument against porn, would this make written/drawn/animated porn or porn produced by married couples okay?

That would depend on the defintion of "okay".

Could married couples watch porn of other married couples? They are all grown adults able to make their own decisions.

I think what it all comes down to is this. Marriage is sacred. What happens in marriage (sex) stays in marriage. It is not for others to know, see or talk about. God did not create sex for marriage rather He created marriage for sex between one man and one woman. The 2 become 1.

Gotta remember porn is a relatively new taboo. We have abused technology and we will pay the price. Our souls, and our childrens souls are at stake!

[wenglund]

Even though many of his more far fetched ideas have been supplanted by better explanations, Freud is still the father of psychoanalysis, and you ignore him at your peril. The concept of repression is still alive and well in modern psychology.

Yes, the concept continues to tickle the itching ears of not a few misguided health professionals. But, at some point even they will be unable to argue with the reasoning and demonstrable success of opposing psychological theories like cognitive behavioral therapy and choice theory. May that day be hastened, and may I quickly suffer the alledged "peril" that you suppose.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[noel00]

For a good nonreligous critique of the damages porn does see The Brain that Changes Itself by Norman Doige.

quote

" Pornographers promise healthy pleasure and relief from sexual tension, but what they often deliver is an addicton, tolerance, and an eventual decrease in pleasure. Pardoxically, the male patients I worked with often craved pornography but didn't like it"