Pornography in Utah

[Amensalist]

For a good nonreligous critique of the damages porn does see The Brain that Changes Itself by Norman Doige.

quote

" Pornographers promise healthy pleasure and relief from sexual tension, but what they often deliver is an addicton, tolerance, and an eventual decrease in pleasure. Pardoxically, the male patients I worked with often craved pornography but didn't like it"

AMEN!

[Ivan the Magnificent!]

For a good nonreligous critique of the damages porn does see The Brain that Changes Itself by Norman Doige.

quote

" Pornographers promise healthy pleasure and relief from sexual tension, but what they often deliver is an addicton, tolerance, and an eventual decrease in pleasure. Pardoxically, the male patients I worked with often craved pornography but didn't like it"

Are people "addicted" to the porn or to the rush?

[LeSellers]

Are people "addicted" to the porn or to the rush?

Is there a difference?

Lehi

[Tsuzuki]

Gotta remember porn is a relatively new taboo. We have abused technology and we will pay the price. Our souls, and our childrens souls are at stake!

Porn is at least as old as art, and it predates written history. Some of it has served religious functions. But you're right, the taboo is recent.

[noel00]

In the Education dept I work in, I had a female collegue whose job was go online and put blocks on sites that students might come accross in school when doing research. For example if a student was doing research on breast cancer and put the word "breast" in some porn would come up. She found when she cut a site off, another site would bounch up, like there was a link between many sites. Also Viagra was advertised on these sites. Some research seems to indicate that impotency can develop as a result. If you are looking at touched up images how would one expect ones partner with her stretch marks etc to arouse one. That's why porn is such an evil not just from a religious standpoint but a psychological viewpoint.

[Tsuzuki]

Yes, the concept continues to tickle the itching ears of not a few misguided health professionals. But, at some point even they will be unable to argue with the reasoning and demonstrable success of opposing psychological theories like cognitive behavioral therapy and choice theory. May that day be hastened, and may I quickly suffer the alledged "peril" that you suppose.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

The theories are complimentary, not opposing.

[Droopy]

Yes, the concept continues to tickle the itching ears of not a few misguided health professionals. But, at some point even they will be unable to argue with the reasoning and demonstrable success of opposing psychological theories like cognitive behavioral therapy and choice theory. May that day be hastened, and may I quickly suffer the alledged "peril" that you suppose.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Freud has been essentially discredited since the middle of the 20th century. Indeed, the singular failure of Freudian psychodynamic therapy and the complete lack of evidence for its efficacy were a primary impetus for the "third wave", humanistic psychotherapies that rose to prominence from the sixties onward.

The whole concept of "sexual repression"; the idea that sexual mores that restrict and channel human sexuality into specific forms and expressions and sanction unrestrained sexual behavior create a pent up sexual frustration that must then express itself, at any cost, in some other way, as a way to let off damned up sexual energy, is a relic of the sexual revolution of the sixties. It formed a major philosophical component of Hugh Hefner's "playboy philosophy" and of much theorizing within the social sciences during that era (see the video on Youtube of William Buckley debating Hefner for a thorough introduction to this argument).

Some of Freud's concepts, such as some of the defense mechanisms (rationalization, projection etc.) do still have metaphorical value, but his system itself as a system is only one more example of the relentless march of positivism, reductionism and materialism through our culture since the nineteenth century.

[Droopy]

Also, marriage is not necessarily about self sacrifice and self denial. It's about commitment, which is one of the three main factors in a healthy relationship, along with intimacy and passion.

Clearly, our author has either never been married, or has simply spent far to great a portion of his mortal probation in the high clouds of theory.

So the three main factors of a healthy relationship are:

1. commitment

2. intimacy

3. passion.

I wonder, how can there be commitment in a marital context without self sacrifice and self denial?

The Brethren have always taught something very different (if not the obverse) here, which I suppose is hardly surprising.

[Droopy]

In the Education dept I work in, I had a female collegue whose job was go online and put blocks on sites that students might come accross in school when doing research. For example if a student was doing research on breast cancer and put the word "breast" in some porn would come up. She found when she cut a site off, another site would bounch up, like there was a link between many sites. Also Viagra was advertised on these sites. Some research seems to indicate that impotency can develop as a result. If you are looking at touched up images how would one expect ones partner with her stretch marks etc to arouse one. That's why porn is such an evil not just from a religious standpoint but a psychological viewpoint.

Precisely. Pornography creates impossible standards of expectation and desire that can only be achieved in fantasy - never in reality.

It also creates a mental set that places erotic desires and ideation at the center of the human experience, and, given the intense reinforcement of this kind of sexual experience (not just sexual experience per se, but eroticism (the whole perceptual field of imagery, atmosphere, background and setting common to pornographic portrayals), addiction always looms as a dire possibility.

[Tsuzuki]

I wonder, how can there be commitment in a marital context without self sacrifice and self denial?

If you are not too attached to transient things, getting rid of them is not a sacrifice or denial.

[Droopy]

The theories are complimentary, not opposing.

Yes they are. The problem with any attempt to compare and contrast Freudian theory to any other modality, such as CBT, Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, or any other form, is that Freudian theory cannot be tested empirically. Its core concepts are not inferential extrapolations from observed facts but philosophical/metaphysical claims that are proof against any scientific analysis. It was the signal poor performance of Freudian psychodynamics as to efficacy and the prognosis of the vast majority of its "patients" that provoked much of the movement against it after its apogee in the fifties.

[Droopy]

If you are not too attached to transient things, getting rid of them is not a sacrifice or denial.

This would appear to be saying that both one's companion and the marriage itself are "transient things" for which no deep attachment needs to be made. Hence, self sacrifice and self denial in the name of preserving that which is transient and ephemeral is both unnecessary and self defeating (it impinges upon one's own personal self cultivation; it interferes with one's own movement toward higher consciousness and awareness - things that transcend discreet relationships).

[wenglund]

The theories are complimentary, not opposing.

Not according to the founders of the theories. But, compared to you, what do they know?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Tsuzuki]

This would appear to be saying that both one's companion and the marriage itself are "transient things" for which no deep attachment needs to be made. Hence, self sacrifice and self denial in the name of preserving that which is transient and ephemeral is both unnecessary and self defeating (it impinges upon one's own personal self cultivation; it interferes with one's own movement toward higher consciousness and awareness - things that transcend discreet relationships).

I don't believe that relationships are transient.

What I'm saying is that if a sacrifice is worth while, it's not a sacrifice. If something feels like a sacrifice, then either you're too attached or you shouldn't give it up.

[Droopy]

I don't believe that relationships are transient.

What I'm saying is that if a sacrifice is worth while, it's not a sacrifice. If something feels like a sacrifice, then either you're too attached or you shouldn't give it up.

So, if I'm addicted to pornography and eroticism, my choice is:

1. I'm too attached to it.

2. I should continue as before.

Now, the gospel of course, teaches us something precisely the opposite of your claims above. As Joseph said:

A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary [to lead] unto life and salvation.

My experience of life, and the doctrines of the restored gospel, indicate that, contra what you are attempting to claim here, a sacrifice which is not perceived by the sacrificer to be a sacrifice is not worth bothering with in the first place.

Indeed, the giving away of something highly valued to attain something valued far greater, but with is not clearly accessible or present, and which may be ineffable from a mortal frame of reference, can involve real privation, suffering, loss and denial, but it is precisely the character that is created and refined in these kinds of crucibles that are central to our mortal experience.

[Tsuzuki]

So, if I'm addicted to pornography and eroticism, my choice is:

1. I'm too attached to it.

2. I should continue as before.

Now, the gospel of course, teaches us something precisely the opposite of your claims above. As Joseph said:

My experience of life, and the doctrines of the restored gospel, indicate that, contra what you are attempting to claim here, a sacrifice which is not perceived by the sacrifice to be a sacrifice is not worth bothering with in the first place.

Indeed, the giving away of something highly valued to attain something valued far greater, but with is not clearly accessible or present, and which may be ineffable from a mortal frame of reference, can involve real privation, suffering, loss and denial, but it is precisely the character that is created and refined in these kinds of crucibles that are central to our mortal experience.

Are you suggesting that I become attached to worldly things so that I can sacrifice them?

[ERayR]

Are you suggesting that I become attached to worldly things so that I can sacrifice them?

You aleady are. We ae all attached to some worldly thing(s). What is it?

[Tsuzuki]

You aleady are. We ae all attached to some worldly thing(s). What is it?

I know I am, but I would rather detach before I sacrifice.

[Ivan the Magnificent!]

Precisely. Pornography creates impossible standards of expectation and desire that can only be achieved in fantasy - never in reality.

It also creates a mental set that places erotic desires and ideation at the center of the human experience, and, given the intense reinforcement of this kind of sexual experience (not just sexual experience per se, but eroticism (the whole perceptual field of imagery, atmosphere, background and setting common to pornographic portrayals), addiction always looms as a dire possibility.

Our entire economy is based on fantasy and impossible standards you know. Again, I read a while back that women who look at porn have higher body self image than those who do not. There could be two explainations for that -- the first is that women who like porn might be very much in body image already and work out/exercise to look good. the second is that looking at sexual imagery might show you that there are all shapes and sizes of people out there on the net, and I doubt most look like they just stepped out of a Playboy centerfold. There is a documentary on the net (from England I believe) dealing with women who were going in for plastic surgury to have their external, well, you know, removed because they had acquired the image that they were in some way ugly or whatever (it is becoming a popular procedure in England and Canada). The woman who was in charge of the documentary found out that the women who were freaked out over their bodies had very little idea of what the typical female form looked like. A seminar was arranged to show women the variation. This could be shown in Europe I guess but I do not think the moderators would like me to link it. The thing is, airbrushing is a thing of the past -- and thanks to porn issuing in the DVD revolution, and now blueray, the human forms in front of those cameras will show every scar, stretch mark and blemish. So this is not an area that porn should be attacked.

And porn is not responsible for putting sexuality into the forefront of existence. Our gender is our greatest defining feature and it is based on sexuality. If you have a certain sex, you can have babies...another, you can pass the sacrament. If sexuality were not everpresent then we would not advise adult men and women who are not married with each other to share rides even to the temple. Porn can magnify only what is there in the first place. However, there seems to be a strange twist to the argument in this forum -- some people seem to feel porn will cause one to be hyper sexual, while others warn that it will lead one to have to use viagra. Not sure about that -- my understanding is that obesity and smoking are the reasons men need viagra (obesity for causing chemical imbalances in men and smoking destroying tiny capilaries in the reproductive organs).

Look, bad science and reasoning will be spotted by our young people and the strength of our anti-porn message will be weakened. it is better to leave porn in the context of morality and religion. Teach that it is wrong but don't make it sound as if it will lead to mental disorders in the average person or lead to crime. Personally, I believe porn can be a gateway to many people wanting to do immoral things so that is a massive danger. Yet at the same time many programs on TV can give the same message without the sex. Attack immorality when you see it and throw porn into the category of things that can lead one astray. In fact, I would even celebrate if the Church would ask members to boycott cable providers that offer porn as well as hotel chains that distribute porn.

[Amensalist]

I know I am, but I would rather detach before I sacrifice.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me IMHO that detachment and sacrifice are the same thing.