Did Emma Really Kick Eliza Snow Down the Stairs?

[cinepro]

There's also the account of the story where, when Emma confronts Joseph and Eliza, Joseph calmly explains to her that while there had been a "sealing", the provisions regarding "seed" don't apply to his particular arrangements, and they are by nature platonic. He also explained to Emma that he had been sealed to other men, so obviously her assumptions are suspect, at which point Emma became rather embarrassed by her assumptions and apologized for making a scene.

I can't remember the reference, but I'll see if I can find it.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

There's also the account of the story where, when Emma confronts Joseph and Eliza, Joseph calmly explains to her that while there had been a "sealing", the provisions regarding "seed" don't apply to his particular arrangements, and they are by nature platonic. He also explained to Emma that he had been sealed to other men, so obviously her assumptions are suspect, at which point Emma became rather embarrassed by her assumptions and apologized for making a scene.

I can't remember the reference, but I'll see if I can find it.

[ERMD]

I can't think of a likely mechanism by which a woman would become infertile due to a fall down a flight of stairs. Any attempt to blame that condition on the episode lacks credibility.

[USU78]

I can't think of a likely mechanism by which a woman would become infertile due to a fall down a flight of stairs. Any attempt to blame that condition on the episode lacks credibility.

OSC in his novelization of the event has Bennett the sometimes mayor and abortionist being called in to attend the stand-in for ERS . . . and, since she is the one person in Nauvoo who sees right through him, he "unwomans" her to keep her off balance, claiming it was necessary because of the internal injuries.

Of course he's lying.

[katherine the great]

OSC in his novelization of the event has Bennett the sometimes mayor and abortionist being called in to attend the stand-in for ERS . . . and, since she is the one person in Nauvoo who sees right through him, he "unwomans" her to keep her off balance, claiming it was necessary because of the internal injuries.

Of course he's lying.

Bennett lie? Never!

[Jigglysaint]

Of course it didn't happen. Emma shouted "I am a MAYN!" and punched Eliza right in the gut.

[Daniel Peterson]

I can't think of a likely mechanism by which a woman would become infertile due to a fall down a flight of stairs. Any attempt to blame that condition on the episode lacks credibility.

A point made by Dr. Hales, as well.

[katherine the great]

Of course it didn't happen. Emma shouted "I am a MAYN!" and punched Eliza right in the gut.

Lol! Farfetched but pretty funny!

[Woody]

I can't think of a likely mechanism by which a woman would become infertile due to a fall down a flight of stairs. Any attempt to blame that condition on the episode lacks credibility.

Tipped or twisted uterus.

Damaged ovaries.

Severe bruising leading to other complications.

Torn fallopian tubes.

Broken or dislocated hip joint with consequent chronic pain resulting in antipathy for sex or the prospect of birthing.

Broken illium with same result.

Torn ligament with same result.

Hernia with same result.

Back or spinal injury with same result.

Internal injury leading to infection, leading to damage to organs, by any of these same mechanisms.

Internal injury regrown in improper manner.

Broken rib poking into an organ leading to any of the above mechanisms.

Psychological factors - fear, guilt, nervousness interfering with conception, a delicate physical and biochemical process.

Frontier doctoring.

Some ruptured gland or other, resulting in hormonal dysfunction.

Knock on the head, resulting in brain injury or cranial bleeding resulting in many possible kinds of physiological neurological malfunctions.

General spiritual shock resulting in withering of desire. (One of my grandmothers died of sorrow, basically, over a family fight that didn't even involve her.)

I dunno, I'd guess there's probably a hundred possibilities.

Does ERMD mean ER MD ? Maybe I shouldn't presume to question your pronouncements.

Wood

[katherine the great]

Tipped or twisted uterus.

Damaged ovaries.

Severe bruising leading to other complications.

Torn fallopian tubes.

Broken or dislocated hip joint with consequent chronic pain resulting in antipathy for sex or the prospect of birthing.

Broken illium with same result.

Torn ligament with same result.

Hernia with same result.

Back or spinal injury with same result.

Internal injury leading to infection, leading to damage to organs, by any of these same mechanisms.

Internal injury regrown in improper manner.

Broken rib poking into an organ leading to any of the above mechanisms.

Psychological factors - fear, guilt, nervousness interfering with conception, a delicate physical and biochemical process.

Frontier doctoring.

Some ruptured gland or other, resulting in hormonal dysfunction.

Knock on the head, resulting in brain injury or cranial bleeding resulting in many possible kinds of physiological malfunctions.

IF the story were true, I can see how being thrown down a steep, wooden, old fashioned staircase could result in serious injury. The problem though is that the historical record shows that Eliza taught school, as usual, the day after she moved out of the Smith's house. She never missed a day of work.

[All-Seeing Eye]

A point made by Dr. Hales, as well.

Hm. That's strange, because I found a site that says:

Pelvic inflammatory disease (PID), miscarriage and prior surgery form adhesions as well, which may also block the fallopian tubes and prevent the passage of an egg down to the uterus.

http://womens-health.health-cares.net/infertility-causes.php

[All-Seeing Eye]

Perhaps it would be more fruitful All-Seeing Eye if you asked this question to the critics who bring these stupid (often fake or out of context) things up and then give members of the Church the job of untangling the knots.

Perhaps it would be more fruitful if you realized that it was the members of the church themselves who originally brought it up.

[USU78]

Perhaps it would be more fruitful if you realized that it was the members of the church themselves who originally brought it up.

Palace gossip.

'Twas ever thus.

[zeezrom]

As I recall, there are a few accounts of Emma "getting physical."

Why do you think Joseph was so afraid of her?

I've learned in my own marriage that, since I am utterly incapable of "getting physical" with either my wife or daughters...

Careful Will, that is your 21st Century cultural programming being placed on a historical setting in a different environment.

You can't start making claims about how Joesph felt about Emma based on your own paradigm. Isn't that what you would tell me?

[Woody]

IF the story were true, I can see how being thrown down a steep, wooden, old fashioned staircase could result in serious injury. The problem though is that the historical record shows that Eliza taught school, as usual, the day after she moved out of the Smith's house. She never missed a day of work.

Did she miscarry right there in the school while drilling students on verb conjugations?

[Glenn101]

Would it be wrong for a wife to physically confront another woman if she founds out that A.) That woman is having sex with her husband? B.) That woman is pregnant with her husbands child? C.) That woman plans to continue an intimate relationship with her husband despite her objections.

I would suspect that most people here, if put in a similar situation with their spouse, could imagine themselves having a similar response.

So even if she did could you blame her?

Phaedrus

Have any of those allegations been validated beyond rumor and innuendo?

Glenn

[katherine the great]

Did she miscarry right there in the school while drilling students on verb conjugations?

I don't think she miscarried at all. I don't think she was pregnant and I don't think Emma kicked her down the stairs.

[Woody]

I don't think she miscarried at all. I don't think she was pregnant and I don't think Emma kicked her down the stairs.

But I think it's safe to say that somebody miscarried at some point. And somebody fell down some stairs. So... coulda been Eliza!

A guy on ARM had another case about as logical. Mommy got kicked by a cow, went flying head over heels, fought to keep the baby, it was born but died soon thereafter. Therefore subtract nine months from the birth date (remember she fought to keep it until it was viable) (but now ignore that) subtract nine months (don't let anyone tell you it isn't exactly 9 months) and you get a date when <ta da> Daddy was out of town on a mission. Therefore he was not the father. Now, there were 4000 other men in town at that time, so therefore <ta da> Joseph Smith must have been the daddy. And therefore <ta da> he sent the husband on a mission to facilitate this.

Fawn Brodie had one that was based on the fact that the kid was named after Joseph.

I still can't figure out whether these are cases of someone stupid becoming an anti, or someone becoming stupid because they became an anti.

Wood

[katherine the great]

But I think it's safe to say that somebody miscarried at some point. And somebody fell down some stairs. So... coulda been Eliza!

A guy on ARM had another case about as logical. Mommy got kicked by a cow, went flying head over heels, fought to keep the baby, it was born but died soon thereafter. Therefore subtract nine months from the birth date (remember she fought to keep it until it was viable) (but now ignore that) subtract nine months (don't let anyone tell you it isn't exactly 9 months) and you get a date when <ta da> Daddy was out of town on a mission. Therefore he was not the father. Now, there were 4000 other men in town at that time, so therefore <ta da> Joseph Smith must have been the daddy. And therefore <ta da> he sent the husband on a mission to facilitate this.

Fawn Brodie had one that was based on the fact that the kid was named after Joseph.

I still can't figure out whether these are cases of someone stupid becoming an anti, or someone becoming stupid because they became an anti.

Wood

I guess I don't understand where you are on this issue. These were rumors that were spread among the LDS community long before any "anti" got a hold of them. Plural marriage introduced a lot of problems for Emma. Everyone knew she didn't like it and reacted very strongly to it. Somehow, someone got it in their head that this story happened and started talking about it. I don't think they got their facts straight, but given Emma's strong anti-polygamy feelings, people believed it.

[All-Seeing Eye]

So, can a woman become infertile as a result of a miscarriage, or can't she? It seems like I'm hearing some people in this thread say that it's impossible, but then, on at least one website (which I have noted), it appears that a woman CAN indeed become infertile due to adhesions caused by a miscarriage.

[katherine the great]

So, can a woman become infertile as a result of a miscarriage, or can't she? It seems like I'm hearing some people in this thread say that it's impossible, but then, on at least one website (which I have noted), it appears that a woman CAN indeed become infertile due to adhesions caused by a miscarriage.

A woman can become infertile due to many different reasons. I find it more likely that Eliza was infertile due to age and lack of "intimate" time with her second husband. She was forty when she married Brigham Young, then crossed the plains and didn't really set up house with him until later. Fertility in our forties is generally much reduced to start with (although not always impossible.)

[ERMD]

Tipped or twisted uterus.

Damaged ovaries.

Severe bruising leading to other complications.

Torn fallopian tubes.

Broken or dislocated hip joint with consequent chronic pain resulting in antipathy for sex or the prospect of birthing.

Broken illium with same result.

Torn ligament with same result.

Hernia with same result.

Back or spinal injury with same result.

Internal injury leading to infection, leading to damage to organs, by any of these same mechanisms.

Internal injury regrown in improper manner.

Broken rib poking into an organ leading to any of the above mechanisms.

Psychological factors - fear, guilt, nervousness interfering with conception, a delicate physical and biochemical process.

Frontier doctoring.

Some ruptured gland or other, resulting in hormonal dysfunction.

Knock on the head, resulting in brain injury or cranial bleeding resulting in many possible kinds of physiological neurological malfunctions.

General spiritual shock resulting in withering of desire. (One of my grandmothers died of sorrow, basically, over a family fight that didn't even involve her.)

I dunno, I'd guess there's probably a hundred possibilities.

Does ERMD mean ER MD ? Maybe I shouldn't presume to question your pronouncements.

Wood

It does, indeed mean just that.

I will respond by asking you to find a case report linking infertility to any of the conditions (some of which frankly do not exist, e.g., "twisted uterus") you mention. Additionally, pelvic organs are incredibly stable and well-protected. Unless a woman is more than 16 weeks pregnant, there is virtually no risk of injury to them in a fall. I have treated hundreds of women involved in major trauma and never encountered an injury to a pelvic organ. Granted, that is anectodal, but again, I think you would be hard-pressed to find documentation of it.

[ERMD]

So, can a woman become infertile as a result of a miscarriage, or can't she? It seems like I'm hearing some people in this thread say that it's impossible, but then, on at least one website (which I have noted), it appears that a woman CAN indeed become infertile due to adhesions caused by a miscarriage.

Having a simple miscarriage will not put a woman at risk for infertility, unless there is what is termed a septic abortion. Miscarriage generally does not affect ovaries or fallopian tubes; those structures are "upstream", as it were. Are women who have miscarried infertile? Certainly. Establishing cause and effect is a different matter.

[alter idem]

Did she miscarry right there in the school while drilling students on verb conjugations?

That's the point. She didn't have a miscarriage. She was at work teaching the next day after she moved out of the Smith's home.

I can tell you that after suffering eight miscarriages in my life, Eliza would not have been at work as if nothing had happened. In the 1830's she would have been at home in bed fearing that she might hemorrhage or develop an infection and die.

I was diagnosed with a tipped uterus; I was never thrown down a flight of stairs--yet I still miraculously managed to carry three pregnancies to term.

Just because others told some tale, does not mean there's a shred of truth in it and facts don't bear out the tale.

And IF there is any truth in it, it's probably garbled by poor memories and passing down stories. Pregnancy etc. were not the thing of casual conversation in the Victorian era. Eliza could have miscarried while married to Brigham Young and family members messed up the story, adding this information to the tale of when Emma ordered her out of the house, to make it more exciting and blacken Emma's character which was very popular to do when the RLDS church was trying to get converts.

[Woody]

I will respond by asking you to find a case report linking infertility to any of the conditions (some of which frankly do not exist, e.g., "twisted uterus") you mention.

I'm not a doctor, just a husband and father with many relatives = many experiences related. So thanks for the correction.

Wood