Struggling Mormons

[rodheadlee]

Zeezrom I'm going to qoute jwhitlock from another thread becuse he says it better than I ever could: but it applies here:

"The highest blessings that God can give to us (eternal life / exaltation) are to be found through keeping the covenants made in the Church.

There are those who reject those blessings - for whatever reason - and so don't join the Church or leave it.

God in His great mercy has prepared other blessings for such people, if they decide to accept them. However, those blessings are not as great as the exaltation God promises to those who keep the covenants found in the ordinances of the Church.

As such, the only real decision people make in regards to the Church is whether to accept the covenants and keep them, or to reject them. All other reasons for staying or leaving are simply rationalizations or justifications to support that decision concerning accepting or rejecting the covenants offered by the Church.

There is really only one thing that a person needs to know, and that is whether the covenants offered by the Church are of God. In restoring the covenants of the gospel in the latter days, God supplied a sure way of knowing that basic truth. It's simple and it's straightforward to find that out, as many of us can testify. Once a person knows that fact, the only decision that can be made is whether to accept it or reject it.

Given that framework, "reasons" supplied for leaving the Church are, in reality, only rationalizations created to support the rejection of the covenants. Whatever those rationalizations are for leaving, they do not and cannot counter the basic truth that the covenants of the gospel have been restored by God within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In effect, the question probably should be "Are there any valid rationalizations for rejecting the covenants of the restored gospel?"

And the short answer to that question is: No.

It's all really a decision between accepting the greatest blessings God has to offer, or settling for something less. And while it is probably acceptable to God if a person desires to settle for something less (that's what agency is all about), it still doesn't make the rationalizations for rejecting the covenants of exaltation valid."

Thanks jwhitlock for making it so clear to me.

[William Schryver]

Zeezrom:

But when you have a man like Joseph Smith... What other man on this earth has claimed so much in regards to revelation? Joseph's claimed role makes it much more difficult to allow for flaws.

I approach this reply to your post with great earnestness. I

[zeezrom]

Now, I don

[Calm]

Providing love and support and urging them to find their answers through their own connecting reconnecting with God is the best way I have come up with. It has not always resulted in the person in question staying wih the church, but it has always left the door open.

I agree this is the only workable solution in my experience. Turning the search for truth into some sort of competition will never bring someone to that necessary connection.

[Hyrum Page]

I will offer my support to zeezrom here. Most of us did not understand lots of the details involved in Joseph's practice of polygamy until Todd Compton published his book In Sacred Lonliness. I frankly do not understand how others can look at zee as though he just fell out of the turnip truck because he did not know. It is not as though this was something we spent a lot of time dicussing in Church.

[Lamanite]

I will offer my support to zeezrom here. Most of us did not understand lots of the details involved in Joseph's practice of polygamy until Todd Compton published his book In Sacred Lonliness. I frankly do not understand how others can look at zee as though he just fell out of the turnip truck because he did not know. It is not as though this was something we spent a lot of time dicussing in Church.

To be fair it's not an issue that zeezrom didn't know. The issue for me is his response once he did find out. I liked Todds book because it provided access to historical data I did not previously possess. I do not agree with how Todd has interpreted this data in some instances, but the book is valuable to me. Same thing with authors like Quinn. His footnotes are of great interest to me. But I do not agree with how he interprets his historical data.

Assuming you've had a spiritual witness, I question your sincerity as you compartmentalize your spiritual witness and this new information. Shouldn't they be considered together? And how do you weight the importance of facts vs. revelation? Or have the fleeting factoids of mortality taken center stage while eternal truths are left behind? The latter seems to be the case.

For one whose foundation is built upon the rock of revelation; what historical nugget can derail my commitment? None. And as a result, there is no dissonance-- only peace. Even if the peace is a bi-product of the knowledge that there will be more knowledge.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Glenn101]

To be fair it's not an issue that zeezrom didn't know. The issue for me is his response once he did find out. I liked Todds book because it provided access to historical data I did not previously possess. I do not agree with how Todd has interpreted this data in some instances, but the book is valuable to me. Same thing with authors like Quinn. His footnotes are of great interest to me. But I do not agree with how he interprets his historical data.

Assuming you've had a spiritual witness, I question your sincerity as you compartmentalize your spiritual witness and this new information. Shouldn't they be considered together? And how do you weight the importance of facts vs. revelation? Or have the fleeting factoids of mortality taken center stage while eternal truths are left behind? The latter seems to be the case.

For one whose foundation is built upon the rock of revelation; what historical nugget can derail my commitment? None. And as a result, there is no dissonance-- only peace. Even if the peace is a bi-product of the knowledge that there will be more knowledge.

Big UP!

Lamanite

Hey Lamanite, I really like the way you phrased that response. I think you have pretty much hit the nail on its proverbial head. A BIG UP to you!

Glenn

[Lamanite]

Hey Lamanite, I really like the way you phrased that response. I think you have pretty much hit the nail on its proverbial head. A BIG UP to you!

Glenn

A very Big UP to all! And a special Big UP! to Zeezrom. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Wait for the miracle to happen...it always does.

Lamanite

[zeezrom]

A very Big UP to all! And a special Big UP! to Zeezrom. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Wait for the miracle to happen...it always does.

Thanks for the big up. Keep in mind that my life is not suddenly void of spiritual witnesses. I feel I had a spiritual witness that has given me peace about Joseph's polygamy.

[Hyrum Page]

To be fair it's not an issue that zeezrom didn't know. The issue for me is his response once he did find out. I liked Todds book because it provided access to historical data I did not previously possess. I do not agree with how Todd has interpreted this data in some instances, but the book is valuable to me. Same thing with authors like Quinn. His footnotes are of great interest to me. But I do not agree with how he interprets his historical data.

Let me clarify for you. I was referring to the details, hence my reference to Compton in the first place. As for quibbling over whether this particular datum or that one is to be interpreted the way Compton did, well, let's just say that the overall picture was challenging enough that I doubt the interpretation of bits here and there is really the point.

Assuming you've had a spiritual witness, I question your sincerity as you compartmentalize your spiritual witness and this new information. Shouldn't they be considered together? And how do you weight the importance of facts vs. revelation? Or have the fleeting factoids of mortality taken center stage while eternal truths are left behind? The latter seems to be the case.

It is a fair point, but I know few people who deal with this kind of challenge ideally. And, to be fair, many tend to think of their testimonies as having been based on a witness given in response to the things they thought they knew. When something as big as seriously unorthodox marital relations hits them square in the face, I think it is reasonable to think they may be in for some reevaluation. Calling them 'fleeting factoids of mortality' doesn't really cover it. After all, if it had been all about such fleeting factoids for Joseph and the rest of the Church up to the Second Manifesto, we would not be having this discussion.

For one whose foundation is built upon the rock of revelation; what historical nugget can derail my commitment? None. And as a result, there is no dissonance-- only peace. Even if the peace is a bi-product of the knowledge that there will be more knowledge.

Good for you. Others may not be so fortunate.

[Lamanite]

Thanks for the big up. Keep in mind that my life is not suddenly void of spiritual witnesses. I feel I had a spiritual witness that has given me peace about Joseph's polygamy.

I have a friend "John W" who has stuck around Mormonism for quite some time after realizing that it wasn't for him. Ask him how well that's worked out for him. You can reach him here

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Lamanite]

After all, if it had been all about such fleeting factoids for Joseph and the rest of the Church up to the Second Manifesto, we would not be having this discussion.

Much of Polygamy could be considered a mere factoid from my perspective.

Good for you. Others may not be so fortunate.

Others may be more fortunate by recognizing that Mormonism is just not for them right now. I'm infinitely better because of Mormonism. All the great blessings I enjoy in my life can be directly and indirectly linked to Joseph Smith. But if for some, it causes only grief, confusion, and dissonance-- then why stick around? Just find a happy trail to follow and trod on.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[AntiCitizen]

When a Mormon is out on a ledge, should we:

A. Try to coax him back in?

B. Yell, "Jump"?

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

This is a loaded question wrapped in a false dichotomy.

[Hyrum Page]

Much of Polygamy could be considered a mere factoid from my perspective.

Excellent news. I hope you don't expect everyone else to get there right away.

Others may be more fortunate by recognizing that Mormonism is just not for them right now. I'm infinitely better because of Mormonism. All the great blessings I enjoy in my life can be directly and indirectly linked to Joseph Smith. But if for some, it causes only grief, confusion, and dissonance-- then why stick around? Just find a happy trail to follow and trod on.

OK.

[Doctor Steuss]

[...] One day I was feeling particularly persnickety, and I was voicing to my mother how much a certain aspect of the Church bothered me. When she replied

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

When a Mormon is out on a ledge, should we:

A. Try to coax him back in?

B. Yell, "Jump"?

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

C. Never jump with them!

[BCSpace]

When a Mormon is out on a ledge, should we:

A. Try to coax him back in?

B. Yell, "Jump"?

We should help those who are struggling as struggling indicates a desire to believe. Otherwise, I believe the Church should divest itself of those who obviously (based at least in part by attendance) do not in terms of membership, but be ready to help them back in if they so desire.

[Tsuzuki]

When a Mormon is out on a ledge, should we:

A. Try to coax him back in?

B. Yell, "Jump"?

Grab a ladder and help them down.

[Tarski]

Hello Consiglieri,

A " struggling Mormon " is no different then " Struggling Catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, etc, etc "

Along our journeys, there are many, many of us who will indeed " struggle " at some point in our journey.

Under the umbrella of " Christianity ", I believe, we as Christians should have great compassion, Love, and understanding to and for our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

Considering that a human being among us is indeed " struggling ", there is clearly, IMHO, no time that would be more important and urgent for us to extend our loving and supportive hand of fellowship to them.

Any hooo, a very interesting thread.

Peace,

Ceeboo

To gain perspective, suppose that someone asked a bunch of fellow Scientologists how they should deal with struggling Scientologists (or FLDS or Christian Scientists or....).

My answer (for LDS) is to encourage them to seek as much verifiable information as possible, to have courage, to avoid wishful thinking, to be open, to be rational, to question basic assumptions, and to pay attention to the preponderance of evidence and finally, to follow their own sense of right and wrong rather than pass that buck to the all too willing outside authorities of the religions in question.

I would tell them to be as open about their own LDS religion being wrong as LDS missionaries hope investigators are open to their religions being wrong.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is a loaded question wrapped in a false dichotomy.

It is a loaded question and it is wrapped in a false dichotomy? Really?

So mormons would never be on the ledge? And We would either never yell "Jump", or "never try to coax them back in".

[Doug the Hutt]

To gain perspective, suppose that someone asked a bunch of fellow Scientologists how they should deal with struggling Scientologists (or FLDS or Christian Scientists or....).

My answer (for LDS) is to encourage them to seek as much verifiable information as possible, to have courage, to avoid wishful thinking, to be open, to be rational, to question basic assumptions, and to pay attention to the preponderance of evidence and finally, to follow their own sense of right and wrong rather than pass that buck to the all too willing outside authorities of the religions in question.

I would tell them to be as open about their own LDS religion being wrong as LDS missionaries hope investigators are open to their religions being wrong.

I liked your statement.

[Hyrum Page]

Grab a ladder and help them down.

Cool.