Abraham Lied

[sethpayne]

Why? Was executing Ted Bundy morally wrong?

I guess I missed the part of the Book of Mormon where Laban received a fair trial and was judged by a jury of his peers.

From what I remember, Nephi felt compelled to kill Laban because the spirit told him to do it. Were Nephi to kill a man using this justification in modern times, I'm not sure a judge or jury would buy it.

[Deborah]

From what I remember, Nephi felt compelled to kill Laban because the spirit told him to do it. Were Nephi to kill a man using this justification in modern times, I'm not sure a judge or jury would buy it.

Which is why one needs to be aware of the times someone else lived. Dueling used to be practice too in this country and other civilized countries and was pretty much overlooked when it came to prosecuting someone for killing someone else.

[USU78]

I talk to the trees

But they don't listen to me.

I prefer

Hand me down that can of beans

USU "Nitty Gritty Dirt Band Forever!" 78

[William Schryver]

I guess I missed the part of the Book of Mormon where Laban received a fair trial and was judged by a jury of his peers.

From what I remember, Nephi felt compelled to kill Laban because the spirit told him to do it. Were Nephi to kill a man using this justification in modern times, I'm not sure a judge or jury would buy it.

I believe the same thing would have applied in Jerusalem, ca. 600 B.C.

I suspect that's why they made no fires during their long flight from "justice."

Even so, as it was said of Orrin Porter Rockwell, so I believe it can also be said of Nephi: He never killed any man that didn't need killing.

[Pilgrim]

Abraham refers, on several occasions, to Lot as his brother. Did he lie about that as well? In our Gospel Doctrine class, the issue did not come up. Mostly because we are enjoined to "liken the scriptures to us," and this story really isn't all that relevant to "us." It was a different time, a different culture, a different society, a different set of circumstances. And there is plenty of material relating to the Abrahamic Covenant that DOES apply to us. With only 35 or 40 minutes of class time, there is really none to waste on peripheral issues - interesting and provocative as they might be.

[consiglieri]

Mostly because we are enjoined to "liken the scriptures to us," and this story really isn't all that relevant to "us."

May I humbly suggest that if we are unable to read the scriptures in such a way as to be relevant to us, the problem may be more with us than with the scriptures.

Just a thought . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mike Reed]

Even so, as it was said of Orrin Porter Rockwell, so I believe it can also be said of Nephi: He never killed any man that didn't need killing.

With comments like this, who needs anti-Mormons to scare people away from the Church?

[sethpayne]

Even so, as it was said of Orrin Porter Rockwell, so I believe it can also be said of Nephi: He never killed any man that didn't need killing.

So you support assassinations based on nothing more than your determination of who deserves to die?

I hope I never end up on your hit list.

[Brenda]

Where does the idea that Sarah was Abraham's NIECE instead of half sister come from? The last two lessons I've heard on Abraham stated that she was his niece and yet I've never read any scripture anywhere that even implies this. I didn't want to interrupt the flow of the lesson to ask about it, but it is severely perplexing me. As to the lying: Who cares? If I knew someone was going to kill me and take my family as slaves if I didn't lie, I would lie. It's the lesser of the two evils.

In case this hasn't already been covered---

According to the Old Testament Institute manual, Sarah (Sarai) was Abraham's niece. She was the daughter of Haran, Abraham's brother, and she was also Lot's sister.

http://institute.lds.org/manuals/old-testament-institute-student-manual-1/ot-in1-03-gen-b-5.asp

It vaguely says this in Gen. 11: 29.

The institute manual also says that in ancient days, any female relative could be referred to as a sister.

[Deborah]

I hope I never end up on your hit list.

are you saying you deserve to die?

[blackstrap]

If you are Pharaoh and are very much aware of the custom of marrying ones sister,then you can't be shocked at the statement by Sarah that Abraham is her brother( but also her husband perhaps ) Methinks Pharaoh did protest too much.

One another point,one in Parliament is not supposed to say that another member "lied" There are also a bunch of words which carry the same meaning that are not to be used as it impinges the character and implies evil intent.

[katherine the great]

In case this hasn't already been covered---

According to the Old Testament Institute manual, Sarah (Sarai) was Abraham's niece. She was the daughter of Haran, Abraham's brother, and she was also Lot's sister.

http://institute.lds.org/manuals/old-testament-institute-student-manual-1/ot-in1-03-gen-b-5.asp

It vaguely says this in Gen. 11: 29.

The institute manual also says that in ancient days, any female relative could be referred to as a sister.

If anything, that scripture says that Sarai was not Micah's sister or Haran's daughter. Why would the first part of the verse call her Sarai and the second part call her Iscah? Milcah is always referred to as Milcah but Sarai is also called Iscah? I've heard this argument, but it makes no sense to me. It sounds to me that the institute manual is relying on the Talmud for it's conclusion that Sarai is Abram's niece and not his half sister. Perhaps she was raised in Terah's household (and in that sense, his daughter.) Of course, if that's the case then this is just more fodder for the people already freaking out about Abraham "lying" because Abraham tells Pharaoh that "she is the daughter of my father, but not of my mother" or something along those lines.

[sethpayne]

are you saying you deserve to die?

I sure hope Will doesn't think so!

[volgadon]

May I humbly suggest that if we are unable to read the scriptures in such a way as to be relevant to us, the problem may be more with us than with the scriptures.

Just a thought . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

When people object so much to learning the historical, social, cultural and, indeed, literary contexts of the Old Testament, is it any wonder?

[gtaggart]

Learning.

Yawn.

By the way, the type face for your signature still sucks.

[Glenn101]

In analyzing the Abraham cycle in Gospel Doctrine class yesterday, I was surprised at how much resistance there was to the seemingly straightforward Genesis story that Abraham had Sarah lie about their relationship to Pharoah (and again later in what appears to be the same story with Abimilech).

One class member said that was how everybody referred to their wives, was as "my sister," so there was no deception.

I threw in that that must be the reason Abraham had a huddle with Sarah beforehand to make sure she said it the way everybody said it and didn't goof it up.

Another member said that Abraham was telling the truth, but that he just wasn't telling the whole truth in order to give an impression that was correct, but not entirely correct.

I remarked, "So you're saying that Abraham is the first lawyer mentioned in the Bible?" (Mucho laughter.) "Like Abraham Lincoln. Hey, he was a lawyer, too. I think you're onto something."

At bottom, in order to keep the class from revolt, I modified my statement that Abraham lied to saying, "One thing I think we can agree on is that Abraham made sure that the entire truth about his relationship with Sarah was not revealed."

I added that this was especially interesting because God had promised Abraham protection, but this is one instance (among many) where Abraham feels that God may need a little help keeping his promise; hence the dissimulation.

Any thoughts as to why this story about Abraham met such resistance in class?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

This may have already been discussed in another post. I have just skimmed some of them and decided to reply to the germinator of this thread. With Abraham and Pharoah, Abraham tells us in Abraham 2:21-25 that the Lord himself advised Abraham to say that Sarah was his sister. Abraham was only following the Lord's instructions in this case according to the account from the Book of Abraham. We only have the Genesis account for a similar situation with Abraham and Abimelech, but it may well have been due to advice from the Lord.

In each instance, the Lord intervened to keep Sarah from having to submit to the Pharoah or Abimelech. So Abraham may not be guilty of any deception due to fear, but only in obedience to the Lord and trusting in the Lord to make things turn out right.

Isaac had a similar encounter with the same king Abimelech and gave the same story, i.e. that Rebekah was his sister. Again, the Genesis account quotes Isaac as being afraid for his life. It is possible though that he received the same advice from the Lord as did Abraham. I am only speculating here because there is no evidence from the text. Abraham's and Isaac's encounters with Abimelech are bot documented in the Book of Abraham, but I do believe that the Lord could have given the same instructions to Abraham and Isaac. The Lord did intervene again in the case of Rebekah and Abimelech.

As far as the sister thing, Abraham averred that Sarah was indeed his sister.

S. Kent Brown posits that Abraham was indeed probably telling the truth on that point here.

I will quote the relevant portion:

Most are familiar with the story of Sarah posing as Abraham

[Brenda]

If anything, that scripture says that Sarai was not Micah's sister or Haran's daughter. Why would the first part of the verse call her Sarai and the second part call her Iscah? Milcah is always referred to as Milcah but Sarai is also called Iscah? I've heard this argument, but it makes no sense to me. It sounds to me that the institute manual is relying on the Talmud for it's conclusion that Sarai is Abram's niece and not his half sister. Perhaps she was raised in Terah's household (and in that sense, his daughter.) Of course, if that's the case then this is just more fodder for the people already freaking out about Abraham "lying" because Abraham tells Pharaoh that "she is the daughter of my father, but not of my mother" or something along those lines.

Apparently Abraham had two brothers, Haran and Nahor. Haran died at an early age, leaving four children, Sarai, Milcah, Iscah, and Lot. Possibly the two surviving brothers followed some custom of taking in, so to speak, the offspring of the deceased Haran. Meaning Abram married Sarai and also took Lot into his care, and Nahor married Milcah. I don't see what happened to Iscah.

Verse 29 clearly says that Haran is the father of Milcah and Iscah, and it's possible to read into it that he was Sarai's father as well. Beyond that, I don't know. But I'll keep looking.

[Brenda]

Apparently Abraham had two brothers, Haran and Nahor. Haran died at an early age, leaving four children, Sarai, Milcah, Iscah, and Lot. Possibly the two surviving brothers followed some custom of taking in, so to speak, the offspring of the deceased Haran. Meaning Abram married Sarai and also took Lot into his care, and Nahor married Milcah. I don't see what happened to Iscah.

Verse 29 clearly says that Haran is the father of Milcah and Iscah, and it's possible to read into it that he was Sarai's father as well. Beyond that, I don't know. But I'll keep looking.

Here's something:

"10. Now the Lord God caused the famine to wax sore in the land of Ur, insomuch [inasmuch] that Haran, my brother, died, but Terah, my father, yet lived in the land of Ur, of the Chaldee's. And it came to pass that I Abraham, took Sarai to wife, and Nehor, my brother, took Milcah to wife, who were the daughters of Haran. Now the Lord had said unto me, Abram, get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew [show] thee. Therefore I left the land of Ur, of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and I took Lot, my brother's son, and his wife, and Sarai, my wife, and also my father followed after me, unto the land which we denominated Haran. And the famine abated; and my father tarried in Haran and dwelt there, and my father turned again unto his idolatry, therefore he continued in Haran." Times and Seasons, 1842, 705.

[ed2276]

Technically you are correct.

Abraham got Sarah to lie for him.

Does that make it any better?

--Consiglieri

You accuse Abraham of back-filling to cover for his own lie. The scripture says the Lord told Abraham to tell Sarah to "lie", yet that isn't sufficient for you.

Is there any other instance where a lie was used by the Lord to carry out His purpose?

1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he [the Lord] said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so. [lie to Ahab]

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

So, with full knowledge that the spirit would go to Ahab's prophets and put the lie in their mouths that Ahab would have success in battle the Lord told the spirit to go forth and lie.

Or, was Micaiah just back-filling?

Whatever grievance you may have with Abraham you can take to him when you next see him; and when you next see the Lord, you can ask him if Micaiah was back-filling as well, or if the Lord conspired in fomenting two lies.

[katherine the great]

Here's something:

"10. Now the Lord God caused the famine to wax sore in the land of Ur, insomuch [inasmuch] that Haran, my brother, died, but Terah, my father, yet lived in the land of Ur, of the Chaldee's. And it came to pass that I Abraham, took Sarai to wife, and Nehor, my brother, took Milcah to wife, who were the daughters of Haran.

Thank you! I had never noticed the plural "daughters" in that verse before. Is this in the Book of Abraham?

Okay, I just looked this up and this is what the Book of Abraham says:

" 1 Now the Lord God caused the famine to wax sore in the land of Ur, insomuch that Haran, my brother, died; but Terah, my father, yet lived in the land of Ur, of the Chaldees.

2 And it came to pass that I, Abraham, took Sarai to wife, and Nahor, my brother, took Milcah to wife, who was the daughter of Haran."

So now I am even more confused. What, exactly, is the scripture you quoted?

[katherine the great]

The article clarifies Abraham's statement about Sarah being the daughter of his father but not his mother, if Terah had adopted Sarah into his family by the time that Abraham and Sarah were married.

So maybe Abraham and Isaac were not so fearful after all. I have a hard time accepting that a man who trusted in God as much as Abraham did when he unquestioningly prepared to sacrifice his beloved son, Isaac would be fearful of his life and not trust the Lord to help him out in other tough situations.

Glenn

Very interesting commentary on the Hurrians. Thanks for posting it!

[Glenn101]

glennthigpen, on 23 February 2010 - 09:06 PM, said:

The article clarifies Abraham's statement about Sarah being the daughter of his father but not his mother, if Terah had adopted Sarah into his family by the time that Abraham and Sarah were married.

So maybe Abraham and Isaac were not so fearful after all. I have a hard time accepting that a man who trusted in God as much as Abraham did when he unquestioningly prepared to sacrifice his beloved son, Isaac would be fearful of his life and not trust the Lord to help him out in other tough situations.

Glenn

Very interesting commentary on the Hurrians. Thanks for posting it!

I am finding out that so many of the inconsistencies and apparent contradictions in the scriptures come from an incomplete data set. Sarah could have easily been a cousin by blood and a sister by adoption. Who says the Old Testament stories are dull????

Glenn

[Brenda]

Thank you! I had never noticed the plural "daughters" in that verse before. Is this in the Book of Abraham?

Okay, I just looked this up and this is what the Book of Abraham says:

" 1 Now the Lord God caused the famine to wax sore in the land of Ur, insomuch that Haran, my brother, died; but Terah, my father, yet lived in the land of Ur, of the Chaldees.

2 And it came to pass that I, Abraham, took Sarai to wife, and Nahor, my brother, took Milcah to wife, who was the daughter of Haran."

So now I am even more confused. What, exactly, is the scripture you quoted?

If you notice in my post, the reference is the Times and Seasons, not the Book of Abraham. This the source that the institute manual names. You can look the Times and Seasons up online. It was a newspaper from the Nauvoo days and at the time that this particular scripture was quoted in it, the newspaper was under the direction of Joseph Smith. So I'd say this is where the belief that Sarai was Abram's niece comes from. Whether it's fact or not, this is probably the origin of the belief.

Was there possibly a typo---either in the Book of Abraham, or in the Times and Seasons? (Was it "daughter" or "daughters"?)

[mapman]

If you notice in my post, the reference is the Times and Seasons, not the Book of Abraham. This the source that the institute manual names. You can look the Times and Seasons up online. It was a newspaper from the Nauvoo days and at the time that this particular scripture was quoted in it, the newspaper was under the direction of Joseph Smith. So I'd say this is where the belief that Sarai was Abram's niece comes from. Whether it's fact or not, this is probably the origin of the belief.

Was there possibly a typo---either in the Book of Abraham, or in the Times and Seasons? (Was it "daughter" or "daughters"?)

Oops. I looked up that reference and missed this. As for typos, I don't know which one is right, but there are differences between the two like Abraham being referred to as Abram sometimes in Times and Seasons.

[Brenda]

A follow-up of my post #173.

Genesis 11:29 and Abraham 2:2 definitely say Milcah was Haran's daughter, and it doesn't say anything about Sarai's father. So in keeping with the version from the Times and Seasons where we read that they were both daughters of Haran, the Genesis and Bk of Abraham verses don't say that she WASN'T Haran's daughter.

IOW, just because it says that Milcah was his daughter, doesn't mean that Sarai wasn't his daughter. It just doesn't say one way or the other. But the hint that Haran died and that Abram's brother took one daughter as a wife, it is logical that Abram took another of Haran's daughters as a wife also.