Abraham Lied

[consiglieri]

In analyzing the Abraham cycle in Gospel Doctrine class yesterday, I was surprised at how much resistance there was to the seemingly straightforward Genesis story that Abraham had Sarah lie about their relationship to Pharoah (and again later in what appears to be the same story with Abimilech).

One class member said that was how everybody referred to their wives, was as "my sister," so there was no deception.

I threw in that that must be the reason Abraham had a huddle with Sarah beforehand to make sure she said it the way everybody said it and didn't goof it up.

Another member said that Abraham was telling the truth, but that he just wasn't telling the whole truth in order to give an impression that was correct, but not entirely correct.

I remarked, "So you're saying that Abraham is the first lawyer mentioned in the Bible?" (Mucho laughter.) "Like Abraham Lincoln. Hey, he was a lawyer, too. I think you're onto something."

At bottom, in order to keep the class from revolt, I modified my statement that Abraham lied to saying, "One thing I think we can agree on is that Abraham made sure that the entire truth about his relationship with Sarah was not revealed."

I added that this was especially interesting because God had promised Abraham protection, but this is one instance (among many) where Abraham feels that God may need a little help keeping his promise; hence the dissimulation.

Any thoughts as to why this story about Abraham met such resistance in class?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[CV75]

Any thoughts as to why this story about Abraham met such resistance in class?

Maybe they thought this is the same as being an illegal immigrant!

[Zakuska]

I would agree that he told a half truth. She was his sister after all.

It's also intresting that all the women in the Kings house became barren when Sarah came to visit. Maybe she had some kind of STD that made her infertile and she was able to pass it along in the bath water.

[the narrator]

The text is clear that Abraham lied. And God told him to.

What baffles me is that Mormons are just fine with Nephi cutting off the head of a defense-less man, but shudder at the thought of Abraham telling a lie.

[Joseph Antley]

Of course he lied. Lying isn't always wrong. For example, if someone has a gun to your head, lying might be a pretty good idea. After all, "That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another."

[Zakuska]

The text is clear that Abraham lied. And God told him to.

What baffles me is that Mormons are just fine with Nephi cutting off the head of a defense-less man, but shudder at the thought of Abraham telling a lie.

God told Moses to lie too.

[MorningStar]

Maybe they're not familiar with the story and it's just shocking to them that Abraham would lie? If I recall correctly, it was because men killed each other to get other men's wives and then he took the lie so far, he let Sarah "marry" the Pharoah, even having their "wedding night"! Then the Pharaoah's reaction was something like, "Why the heck didn't you tell me you were married?"

And if I remember right, Sarah was his half sister, so they could try to claim that they weren't technically lying, but the intent was to deceive others. It wasn't clear whether God approved of him lying to save his life, but I thought actually letting Sarah be with the Pharoah was taking it too far. Jacob lied about the same thing but was caught when some people saw him and his wife "sporting".

We read the OT as a family and finished it in December. My husband and I were laughing through this part because it sounds like a bunch of cavemen running around with clubs, whacking each other to get each other's wives.

[consiglieri]

What baffles me is that Mormons are just fine with Nephi cutting off the head of a defense-less man, but shudder at the thought of Abraham telling a lie.

Good point.

I wish I had thought of that during class.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[William Schryver]

In analyzing the Abraham cycle in Gospel Doctrine class yesterday, I was surprised at how much resistance there was to the seemingly straightforward Genesis story that Abraham had Sarah lie about their relationship to Pharoah (and again later in what appears to be the same story with Abimilech).

One class member said that was how everybody referred to their wives, was as "my sister," so there was no deception.

I threw in that that must be the reason Abraham had a huddle with Sarah beforehand to make sure she said it the way everybody said it and didn't goof it up.

Another member said that Abraham was telling the truth, but that he just wasn't telling the whole truth in order to give an impression that was correct, but not entirely correct.

I remarked, "So you're saying that Abraham is the first lawyer mentioned in the Bible?" (Mucho laughter.) "Like Abraham Lincoln. Hey, he was a lawyer, too. I think you're onto something."

At bottom, in order to keep the class from revolt, I modified my statement that Abraham lied to saying, "One thing I think we can agree on is that Abraham made sure that the entire truth about his relationship with Sarah was not revealed."

I added that this was especially interesting because God had promised Abraham protection, but this is one instance (among many) where Abraham feels that God may need a little help keeping his promise; hence the dissimulation.

Any thoughts as to why this story about Abraham met such resistance in class?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Abraham did not lie.

In the first place, he was commanded of God to do precisely what he did:

Abraham 2

22 And it came to pass when I was come near to enter into Egypt, the Lord said unto me: Behold,Sarai, thy wife, is a very fair woman to look upon;

23 Therefore it shall come to pass, when the Egyptians shall see her, they will say

[Eric Blob]

I think a lot of members have such high expectations of most prophets, that they'll be trying to think up other reasons, other than simply, he lied, because they don't think Abraham would do that.

I think some mormons need to get used to the fact that prophets can sin though. They'll have a dreadful time when they get into mormonism on the Internet if they don't. There's plenty of biblical evidence, evidence in the BoM, and statements by General Authorities to support this position, but from what I've observed in my ward, I don't think people are fully aware of it all, or what it really means.

[consiglieri]

Maybe they're not familiar with the story and it's just shocking to them that Abraham would lie? If I recall correctly, it was because men killed each other to get other men's wives and then he took the lie so far, he let Sarah "marry" the Pharoah, even having their "wedding night"! Then the Pharaoah's reaction was something like, "Why the heck didn't you tell me you were married?"

And if I remember right, Sarah was his half sister, so they could try to claim that they weren't technically lying, but the intent was to deceive others. It wasn't clear whether God approved of him lying to save his life, but I thought actually letting Sarah be with the Pharoah was taking it too far. Jacob lied about the same thing but was caught when some people saw him and his wife "sporting".

One of the interesting things is that Abraham seems certain that if Pharoah/Abimilech want Sarah for his harem, they will kill Abraham if they find out they are married. But in both accounts, Pharoah/Abimilech is put out with Abraham for lying to him and Abimilech says that Abraham almost caused him to sin by having relations with a married woman.

I told the class that the accounts make Pharoah/Abimilech out in a better light than Abraham. (There was a bit of disgruntlement at this observation, but it was hard to argue against.)

Also, somebody in class mentioned that Sarah was Abraham's half-sister, and so it was not technically a lie. I said that there are two schools of thought on this. First, we have to note that nowhere does the narrator of the story say that this is the case, and that it only comes up when Abraham is backing-and-filling for his behavior in the Abimilech story.

One school of thought is that Abraham is telling the truth here, regardless of the fact that it is not corroborated in the narrative.

The other school of thought is that Abraham is continuing to come up with excuses to justify his behavior.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. Something that occurred to me after class is that Abraham who comes from the Shemite land of Ur, might mistakenly think that he would be killed under those circumstances, but it appears that when he gets to Canaan lands, including Egypt (Pharoah) and Gerar (Abimilech), he finds out things are different there.

In this way, not only does the text make Canaanite rulers look better than the Shemite Abraham, but it appears that the Canaanite culture may be more advanced in this respect than the "chosen" Shemite line.

[the narrator]

Abraham did not lie.

In the first place, he was commanded of God to do precisely what he did:

So? Nephi was commanded to lob off Laban's head. God's commanding him to do so doesn't change that.

The problem so many Mormon's have with this passage is the simplistic view that lying is in itself a sin. It's not.

[MorningStar]

I think in lessons on honesty, it has been stated that lying is never OK, so people have a hard time accepting that God actually commanded Abraham to lie. I would definitely lie in certain circumstances - say an intruder asked where my husband was and the answer was really, "He's right behind you and about to whack you in the head with that vase." I would say, "I don't know" or "He's sleeping".

[consiglieri]

Abraham did not lie.

Technically you are correct.

Abraham got Sarah to lie for him.

Does that make it any better?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Spurven Ten Sing]

Abraham did not lie.

In the first place, he was commanded of God to do precisely what he did:

In the second place, Sarah was his sister:

Finally, I also taught the lesson yesterday. It was Lesson 8, Living Righteously in a Wicked World. The previous lesson was The Abrahamic Covenant. For the life of me I cannot imagine why the question of "Abraham lying" would have come up in either of those lessons.

Mr. Schryver. Interesting points. I never realized that Sarah was Abraham's sister. In this telling, Abraham withholds relevant information in a way that is purposefully inaccurate. Do you feel that lying could also include points of omission? And as a follow up, if omission is not lying, is this view common among the LDS?

[volgadon]

It is still a lie. Half-truths fall under that category. I think Abraham was justified in doing so.

Don't hold back, Consig, how did the lesson go?

[Spurven Ten Sing]

So? Nephi was commanded to lob off Laban's head. God's commanding him to do so doesn't change that.

The problem so many Mormon's have with this passage is the simplistic view that lying is in itself a sin. It's not.

Hmmm. I have always understood that lying was a sin. Doesn't it appear in the big 10?

[Eric Blob]

Finally, I also taught the lesson yesterday. It was Lesson 8, Living Righteously in a Wicked World. The previous lesson was The Abrahamic Covenant. For the life of me I cannot imagine why the question of "Abraham lying" would have come up in either of those lessons.

When I prepared for the lesson, the story about Abraham lieing did come up in my scripture reading, so I think it's faesible that it could've come up in the lesson.

If I recall correctly, the lesson includes up to the verse BEFORE the story of Abraham lieing begins (or at least, the story is in a chapter that part of the lesson is based from), so whilst the story shouldn't really have been covered, I think it's highly possible that the story could've been discussed in a lesson, seeing as it's so close to the verses the lesson focuses on.

I discussed this a while ago in a different thread, where I warned people it could be brought up in a lesson in the near future. I'll try and find the post...

EDIT: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/47832-the-2010-gospel-doctrine-noahs-flood-poll/page__view__findpost__p__1208803264

[Joseph Antley]

What do we have a bigger problem with - lying or incest?

[Senator]

For the life of me I cannot imagine why the question of "Abraham lying" would have come up in either of those lessons.

I agree. Image spoilers are no fun.

Just ask Toyota

[Droopy]

I think a lot of members have such high expectations of most prophets, that they'll be trying to think up other reasons, other than simply, he lied, because they don't think Abraham would do that.

I think some mormons need to get used to the fact that prophets can sin though. They'll have a dreadful time when they get into mormonism on the Internet if they don't. There's plenty of biblical evidence, evidence in the BoM, and statements by General Authorities to support this position, but from what I've observed in my ward, I don't think people are fully aware of it all, or what it really means.

Apparently you paid no attention, or have no intention of paying attention, to Will's comments above.

The coin of the realm, I suppose.

"Mormonism" on the Internet? Oh yes, you mean "Internet Mormonism" as over against "chapel Mormonism".

Many of our critics are like that guy some decades ago who cut out the big wooden feet, attached them to his shoes, and ran around the woods in the Pacific Northwest making Bigfoot tracks. A great many people bought into their authenticity, and that legend, like the legends of "neo-orthodoxy" and "chapel Mormonism" will never go away, no matter what the future holds for the intellectually honest and humble of heart.

[Spurven Ten Sing]

What do we have a bigger problem with - lying or incest?

Interesting. Is there a proscription on incest appearing in the Bible before these events took place? Perhaps incest was banned later.

[Spurven Ten Sing]

Apparently you paid no attention, or have no intention of paying attention, to Will's comments above.

The coin of the realm, I suppose.

"Mormonism" on the Internet? Oh yes, you mean "Internet Mormonism" as over against "chapel Mormonism".

Many of our critics are like that guy some decades ago who cut out the big wooden feet, attached them to his shoes, and ran around the woods in the Pacific Northwest making Bigfoot tracks. A great many people bought into their authenticity, and that legend, like the legends of "neo-orthodoxy" and "chapel Mormonism" will never go away, no matter what the future holds for the intellectually honest and humble of heart.

In your opinion, is there not a natural range of beliefs found within a population? Do you believe that liberal vs orthodox tendencies are not possible within Mormonism?

[William Schryver]

Technically you are correct.

Abraham got Sarah to lie for him.

Does that make it any better?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Nor, of course, did Sarah lie, seeing as how she was, indeed, Abraham's sister.

Incidentally, withholding truth is not the same as lying. The notion that people have a right to truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is mistaken, and certainly inconsistent with the wisdom and economy of God. I realize that is a difficult concept for some, but it is nonetheless true.

[Spurven Ten Sing]

Nor, of course, did Sarah lie, seeing as how she was, indeed, Abraham's sister.

Incidentally, withholding truth is not the same as lying. The notion that people have a right to truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is mistaken, and certainly inconsistent with the wisdom and economy of God. I realize that is a difficult concept for some, but it is nonetheless true.

I seem to recall a talk or a statement about omission as lying somewhere. I asked before if your view is typical of the LDS, is it? Do you think it is wise to adopt a policy such as this? Could investigators of the faith be turned off by this?