Abraham Lied

[volgadon]

No, the Hebrew word is laughed, not rejoiced. Same for both Abraham and Sarah. Also, look at the context. Shall a son be born to one who is 100 years old? Shall the 90 year old Sarah give birth?

Laughter is a perfectly human reaction, almost instinctful.

I believe that like Joseph Smith, Jr., all the prophets were and are rough stones. They all have to roll in order to become smooth.

[consiglieri]

But when I permit myself to aspire to the honors of men, the Spirit is grieved, and I am left unto myself.

Does aspiring to the honors of men include using information you have gained through your position as a peer reviewer for FAIR to do a public smack-down of an article contributor with whose conclusions you disagree?

People on another thread would like to know.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

I guess they didn't have any herbal Viagra back there in Canaan.

I hear they didn't need any because Sarah was such a hot little number in her black cocktail dress.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Zakuska]

No, the Hebrew word is laughed, not rejoiced. Same for both Abraham and Sarah. Also, look at the context. Shall a son be born to one who is 100 years old? Shall the 90 year old Sarah give birth?

Laughter is a perfectly human reaction, almost instinctful.

I believe that like Joseph Smith, Jr., all the prophets were and are rough stones. They all have to roll in order to become smooth.

Could you explain the footnote then?

Gen 17

17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and ^alaughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an ^bhundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?

17 a HEB (also) rejoiced.

JST Gen. 17: 23 . . . rejoiced . . . TG Laughter.

[William Schryver]

Does aspiring to the honors of men include using information you have gained through your position as a peer reviewer for FAIR to do a public smack-down of an article contributor with whose conclusions you disagree?

People on another thread would like to know.

No. But it does frequently mean waxing authoritative while speaking on topics about which you know nothing, pretending to take the moral high ground while you're standing in a hole you dug yourself, and pandering to evil and conspiring men (and women) for the express purpose of garnering their applause.

[cinepro]

In case anyone was wondering, here's how it's taught in Institute:

The idea that Abraham, the great man of righteousness, deceived Pharaoh in order to protect his own life has troubled many students of the Old Testament. That his life was in danger because of Sarah

[William Schryver]

Are these mutually exclusive?

Perhaps you meant to say "Spiritual promotion"?

In the case of a disturbingly large proportion of gospel doctrine instructors, it's "self promotion."

[William Schryver]

In case anyone was wondering, here's how it's taught in Institute:

Sounds like I should be called as a CES curriculum writer.

[Droopy]

How does learning about the scriptures differ from spiritual enlightenment?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I'd introduce you to Gene Kelly Consig...if he were still alive.

[katherine the great]

In case anyone was wondering, here's how it's taught in

Okay, there it is AGAIN! Where is the scripture that says that Haran and not Terah was Sarai's father?

[William Schryver]

I'd introduce you to Gene Kelly Consig...if he were still alive.

Droopy, you've just impugned the name of a very, very fine dancer. The only Hollywood dancing that reminds me of the bumbling stumbles to which we've been witness today would be Lee Marvin's fancy steps in Paint Your Wagon.

[William Schryver]

Okay, there it is AGAIN! Where is the scripture that says that Haran and not Terah was Sarai's father?

I'm with you, ktg, I've never known where that notion was coming from.

[SlackTime]

My personal take is that lying is about intent; Intent to harm another or to enrich yourself. And when done overtly or covertly, by statement or by omission, it is wrong.

In other words. If I harm my neighbor by speaking lies about him, then I am guilty of lying. But if I speak truths with the intent to spread lies about my neighbor because they mislead someone into believing lies about him I am still guilty of lying. If I know that my neighbor is innocent and do not speak up to clear his name when I hear a lie about him because I intend him harm I would also be guilty of lying.

Or... If I enrich myself by lying to someone to get gain, then I am guilty of lying. If I tell truths about my business in order to "sell" something but purposely withold information to cause the person to believe something that is not true, then I would also be lying. etc.

Lying to defend oneself or another is not lying to gain, nor lying to harm, and I believe the Lord has justified it. He justified it in Abraham, he justified it to Joseph Smith, He justified it in Moses.

Deception of any kind to cause another harm or to enrich yourself is a sin.

Here are the scriptures I feel that support this interpretation:

2 If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the Lord, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;

3 Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein:

4 Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found,

18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous.

16

[Droopy]

Are these mutually exclusive?

Perhaps you meant to say "Spiritual promotion"?

No, but Consigliary, based upon what he as revealed here at least about his general approach, is much more concerned with secular historical issues common to biblical studies than he is with the spiritual patterns and applications of the historical vignettes, such as those dealing with Abraham, found within. The whole idea of an "Abraham cycle" is utterly irrelevant to the spiritual purpose and meaning of the Abraham texts, and superfluous to the purpose of gospel doctrine class. This kind of study can be pursued in our spare time (as I do) at our leisure. We are to teach gospel doctrine class by the Spirit, and with the idea of reaffirming and expanding upon fundamental gospel themes and concepts.

I have no problem pointing things out (provided they are relevant/supportive of gospel teaching), but do have a problem with bending gospel teaching to theoretical explorations of the bible in a sociological/historical context.

I'd love to import all kinds of stuff into gospel doctrine class from the Scrolls, Pseudapigrapha, early Christian texts (and I did, on occasion, when I taught) etc. but would only do this to support spiritual learning and the strengthening of testimony; as a confirming support to the scriptures and teachings of the Lord's present servants, but not as an intellectual excursion into tertiary (and, it must be said in many cases regarding biblical studies, theoretical/hypothetical issues) or into areas that reflect my own particular pet interests.

[mapman]

I'm with you, ktg, I've never known where that notion was coming from.

I've checked the sources given from the Institute manual. The genealogical table says Sarah is the daughter of Haran. There are two citations below her name. One is from Genesis and the other the Book of Abraham printed in the Times and Seasons. Neither say anything about Sarah being Abraham's niece. Maybe the author felt that marrying your niece is less gross than your half sister?

[katherine the great]

I'm with you, ktg, I've never known where that notion was coming from.

Thank you. I was starting to think I was getting senile... (another topic.)

[katherine the great]

I've checked the sources given from the Institute manual. One is from Genesis and the other the Book of Abraham printed in the Times and Seasons. Neither say anything about Sarah being Abraham's niece. Maybe the author felt that marrying your niece is less gross than your half sister?

It kind of is, but not much. They were Mesopotamian. Maybe it was customary there(?)

[Droopy]

Droopy, you've just impugned the name of a very, very fine dancer. The only Hollywood dancing that reminds me of the bumbling stumbles to which we've been witness today would be Lee Marvin's fancy steps in Paint Your Wagon.

Within which the only thing possibly worse would be Clint Eastwood's singing.

[SlackTime]

I've checked the sources given from the Institute manual. The genealogical table says Sarah is the daughter of Haran. There are two citations below her name. One is from Genesis and the other the Book of Abraham printed in the Times and Seasons. Neither say anything about Sarah being Abraham's niece. Maybe the author felt that marrying your niece is less gross than your half sister?

This source gives the picture as I have always understood it....

Family Trees of the Bible: Family Tree Charts and Genealogical Information

- SlackTime

(PS. Go up one page from where it loads for the diagram.)

[volgadon]

The whole idea of an "Abraham cycle" is utterly irrelevant to the purpose and meaning of the Abraham texts, and superfluous to the purpose of gospel doctrine class.

I beg to differ. the cycle, the way it is crafted, is completely relevant to the purpose and meaning. These aren't a bunch of vignettes cobbled together. each incident serves a purpose in Abraham's relationship to god, God's to Abraham, and how though it may seem that god's promise is frustrated at every step, he is still in control.

[Lightbearer]

Any thoughts as to why this story about Abraham met such resistance in class?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Sure, because we have been taught that God is a God of truth and cannot lie, and here He commands His prophet to deceive by withholding the total truth... admittedly it probably saved Abraham's life, but hey that sounds a lot like some other prophets we may know. If the total truth is always declared it can be very damaging or even fatal to God's purposes. As possibly in this case of Abraham and also the case of the Prophet Joseph in regard to plural marriage. As I read the story in Genesis it seems God was trying to teach Abimelech something as well as to preserve Abraham. Now an even more disturbing OT story is the one about Jacob obtaining Esau's blessing by fraud and seemingly conspiring with his mother to deceive the Prophet!

[Hestia]

Will and consiglieri, you need to stop your cat-fighting and stick to the points rather than insinuating personal remarks about each other. And it doesn't matter who started it! That goes for everyone.

[William Schryver]

Will and consiglieri, you need to stop your cat-fighting and stick to the points rather than insinuating personal remarks about each other. And it doesn't matter who started it! That goes for everyone.

I propose a cage fight during the 2010 FAIR Conference! I figure he's several years younger than I am, so that will compensate for his demonstrably inferior wit and cunning.

Ten bucks a ticket, FAIR keeps 25% and 75% goes to the winner. FAIR can also keep all the receipts for peanuts, popcorn, and rootbeer floats.

Edit: I'll even donate a cool 10% towards his medical bills.

[dblagent007]

Some have expressed the opinion that lying is okay depending on the circumstances. Consider this circumstance. A man in a marriage believes that telling the truth to his wife about certain things will likely cause her to divorce him and otherwise ruin his marriage and family. Is the man justified in lying to prevent his wife from finding out the truth?

What if the truth being concealed is that the man has polygamously married and had conjugal relations with numerous other women?

What if the truth being concealed is that the man no longer believes in the couple's religion?

[katherine the great]

Some have expressed the opinion that lying is okay depending on the circumstances. Consider this circumstance. A man in a marriage believes that telling the truth to his wife about certain things will likely cause her to divorce him and otherwise ruin his marriage and family.

Tale as old as time...