Abraham Lied

[staccato]

From the Aaronic Priesthood Manual, Lesson 49: Honesty and Integrity,

[Zakuska]

Hard to say, but we don't know much about Sariah's mother

[consiglieri]

Given today's curriculum definition, Abraham withheld information to protect himself. Perhaps that is why the story was chafing to some in your class.

I agree with you (both times) that this is a likely cause of the irritation.

That and the ubiquitous gospel doctrine teacher self-promotion in my class.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[volgadon]

I agree with you (both times) that this is a likely cause of the irritation.

That and the ubiquitous gospel doctrine teacher self-promotion in my class.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Let us not forget your Gene Kelly routine.

[scooby]

I tend to withhold most of what I know when I speak. It keeps me from an endless ramble.

[LeSellers]

So the source is the Talmud. The Talmud also says, "She was superior to Abraham in the gift of prophecy. She was the "crown" of her husband; and he obeyed her words because he recognized her superiority." I doubt we'll find that in any Institute manuals!

Why not?

Rebekah was more in tune with God than Isaac when it came to Esau and Jacob. And that is most assuredly in the Institute manual.

Lehi

[dblagent007]

Not a bit. Have you a question or a point? I'm clueless and naive, feel free to disabuse me.

- SlackTime

I already asked the question. I'm impressed that you apply the same standard to JS that you do to apostates.

[LeSellers]

I watched that last night on Discovery! What a cool show. But I think it was Tut himself who was married to a full sister. not his parents.

My information is newer than that:

Frail boy-king Tut died from malaria, broken leg

PAUL SCHEMM

The Associated Press

CAIRO - Egypt's famed King Tutankhamun suffered from a cleft palate and club foot, likely forcing him to walk with a cane, and died from complications from a broken leg exacerbated by malaria, according to the most extensive study ever of his more than 3,300-year-old mummy.

The findings were from two years of DNA testing and CT scans on 16 mummies, including those of Tutankhamun and his family, the team that carried out the study said in an article to be published Wednesday in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

It also established the clearest yet family tree for Tut, indicating for the first time that he was the child of a brother-sister union.

The study said his father was most likely Akhenaten, the pharaoh who tried to revolutionize ancient Egyptian religion and force his people to worship one god. The mummy shown by DNA to be that of Tut's mother also turned out to be a sister of Akhenaten, though she has not yet been identified.

Tut died from malaria

Lehi

[Deborah]

Some have expressed the opinion that lying is okay depending on the circumstances.

I'm going to repeat the definition of a liar in John 2:22 "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?"

When the scriptures speak of liars I think this is a good way to measure whether one is a liar in the scriptural definition. Otherwise we are talking about circumstantial priorities. It is not always necessary nor even good nor even Christian to tell the whole truth. Christ himself spoke in parables with the intent that those who were not followers would not understand.

[Zakuska]

Peter lied 3 times to save his own skin.

[consiglieri]

Peter lied 3 times to save his own skin.

But haven't you heard the clever technique of extricating Peter from this predicament by positing Jesus' prediction as a commandment?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Zakuska]

My information is newer than that:

Lehi

I think that might be on tonights show that Im going to watch. Last nights show left the mother unamed.

[JDave]

[SlackTime]

I already asked the question. I'm impressed that you apply the same standard to JS that you do to apostates.

OK, I looked back and never found a point to your questioning my reply to your question, and what's more I don't see either of my responses to either question as applicable to Joseph, so I guess we'll just go back to Abraham where this thread belongs.

- SlackTime

[BCSpace]

At bottom, in order to keep the class from revolt, I modified my statement that Abraham lied to saying, "One thing I think we can agree on is that Abraham made sure that the entire truth about his relationship with Sarah was not revealed."

I added that this was especially interesting because God had promised Abraham protection, but this is one instance (among many) where Abraham feels that God may need a little help keeping his promise; hence the dissimulation.

Any thoughts as to why this story about Abraham met such resistance in class?

The Church answers on this wise:

Even though Abraham was correct in calling her his sister, he did deceive the Egyptians. How can this action be justified? The answer is very simple. His action was justified because God told him to do it (see Abraham 2:22

[dblagent007]

OK, I looked back and never found a point to your questioning my reply to your question, and what's more I don't see either of my responses to either question as applicable to Joseph, so I guess we'll just go back to Abraham where this thread belongs.

- SlackTime

So are denying that JS concealed from Emma that he was polygamously married to other women and having conjugal relations with them? I thought this was where you were going originally, but since you said you read RSR, I figured that you just didn't agree with the way JS practiced polygamy. Oh well. I'm not interested enough to pull the relevant stuff from RSR to prove that he deceived Emma about polygamy so carry on believing what you will.

[Deborah]

[katherine the great]

And, as for marrying one's sister, did we not just learn (in the past week or so) that Tut's mother and father were full brother-and-sister? And, as I recall, the royal lines of much of Polynesia were (and are yet in Tonga) based on sibling marriages.

Lehi

I'm not sure what we've leaned in the past week, but we've known for ages that the Egyptian Pharaohs married their sisters. Even almost two thousand years later, Cleopatra married her brother. I don't think that was a custom that was practiced outside the Royal house--although I'm not sure.

[Cold Steel]

What baffles me is that Mormons are just fine with Nephi cutting off the head of a defense-less man, but shudder at the thought of Abraham telling a lie.

I don't shudder at either.

Why would you find Nephi's slaying of Laban to be so terrible? Death is simply a transition to another reality. Laban still exists today and is alive in the spirit. God did not consign him to non-existence nor throw him into an eternal hell of suffering. And the Babylonians undoubtedly would have killed him, anyway.

Laban suffered the judgment of a just God under the law given by Moses. The half truth told by Abraham was completed by God, which nullifies the entire issue. I suggest that if you're baffled by all this, that you're easily baffled. Neither incident is inconsistent with God; only with Man.

[Mike Reed]

I don't shudder at either.

Why would you find Nephi's slaying of Laban to be so terrible? Death is simply a transition to another reality.

What horrendous and disgusting reasoning. I hope you never serve jury duty.

http://www.kcra.com/news/18865450/detail.html

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=5424804&page=1

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/11/08/hate/print.html

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-gods-messenger-shooting-20100214,0,5735096.story

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/09/02/1818707-wash-rampage-suspect-in-court-i-kill-for-god

[Droopy]

What horrendous and disgusting reasoning. I hope you never serve jury duty.

Why? Was executing Ted Bundy morally wrong?

[SlackTime]

So are denying that JS concealed from Emma that he was polygamously married to other women and having conjugal relations with them? I thought this was where you were going originally, but since you said you read RSR, I figured that you just didn't agree with the way JS practiced polygamy. Oh well. I'm not interested enough to pull the relevant stuff from RSR to prove that he deceived Emma about polygamy so carry on believing what you will.

I don't think I said a thing about Joseph. You want to show me where I did?

Let's instead look at what I did say...

1. He denies the authority of the President of the Church over the keys of Celestial Marriage by engaging in polygamy. Here he wrests control and dominion which he has no right to.

Who held the keys of Celestial Marriage when Joseph Smith was alive? Oh yes! Joseph did! He could hardly be wresting control and dominion over that which he had no right to. Now, based upon what I have read both in RSR and other histories of Joseph Smith, I do believe that Joseph did all he could to obey the commandment of God with her consent, when she denied her consent, then he did what he was required to do by God whether she consented or not.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Any thoughts as to why this story about Abraham met such resistance in class?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You will never win this...I am just glad you escaped with your life!

[consiglieri]

You will never win this...I am just glad you escaped with your life!

It was a close thing, and no mistake.

My feeling is that many readers of the Old Testament are invested in foisting infallibility upon a host of characters that the Old Testament presents as wonderfully flawed (i.e., human).

If they are not flawed, we cannot relate to them in any meaningful way, and hence our ability to learn from them is diminished.

I think the reason the Old Testament continues to elicit interest after thousands of years is precisely because of the flawed and imperfect humans God deems fit to work with and through.

On an unrelated note, this is precisely why Marvel Comics are better than DC Comics any day of the week.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (Italian for "Make Mine Marvel!")

[William Schryver]

dblagent007:

So are denying that JS concealed from Emma that he was polygamously married to other women and having conjugal relations with them? I thought this was where you were going originally, but since you said you read RSR, I figured that you just didn't agree with the way JS practiced polygamy. Oh well. I'm not interested enough to pull the relevant stuff from RSR to prove that he deceived Emma about polygamy so carry on believing what you will.

I don't think I said a thing about Joseph. You want to show me where I did?

Let's instead look at what I did say...

1. He denies the authority of the President of the Church over the keys of Celestial Marriage by engaging in polygamy. Here he wrests control and dominion which he has no right to.

Who held the keys of Celestial Marriage when Joseph Smith was alive? Oh yes! Joseph did! He could hardly be wresting control and dominion over that which he had no right to. Now, based upon what I have read both in RSR and other histories of Joseph Smith, I do believe that Joseph did all he could to obey the commandment of God with her consent, when she denied her consent, then he did what he was required to do by God whether she consented or not.

Very well said, my friend!

Not so clueless and naive as this reporter first believed. I stand humbled in your mighty presence.