William Schryver Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 If you notice in my post, the reference is the Times and Seasons, not the Book of Abraham. This the source that the institute manual names. You can look the Times and Seasons up online. It was a newspaper from the Nauvoo days and at the time that this particular scripture was quoted in it, the newspaper was under the direction of Joseph Smith. So I'd say this is where the belief that Sarai was Abram's niece comes from. Whether it's fact or not, this is probably the origin of the belief.Was there possibly a typo---either in the Book of Abraham, or in the Times and Seasons? (Was it "daughter" or "daughters"?)All of the extant manuscripts (there are three, including Willard Richards' 1841 copy that is believed to have been the "printer's manuscript" for the published BoA to which it refers) read "daughter" not "daughters."
Brenda Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 All of the extant manuscripts (there are three, including Willard Richards' 1841 copy that is believed to have been the "printer's manuscript" for the published BoA to which it refers) read "daughter" not "daughters."Ya, I don't think it was a typo.
consiglieri Posted February 24, 2010 Author Posted February 24, 2010 Whatever grievance you may have with Abraham you can take to him when you next see him; and when you next see the Lord, you can ask him if Micaiah was back-filling as well, or if the Lord conspired in fomenting two lies.I have no grievance with Abraham . . . except that talking about his exploits openly and honestly in Sunday school class almost led to a premature end for yours truly.For those of you who will do anything to make Abraham perfect and all of his actions without blemish, you had better stop reading the Old Testament here.It is only going to get tougher to make Jacob, the supplanter, a paragon of virtue . . .All the Best!--ConsiglieriP.S. It is just possible these stories were not intended as a primer of 21st century Mormon etiquette. I will be starting another thread here in a minute or so on this.
katherine the great Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 I have no grievance with Abraham . . . except that talking about his exploits openly and honestly in Sunday school class almost led to a premature end for yours truly.For those of you who will do anything to make Abraham perfect and all of his actions without blemish, you had better stop reading the Old Testament here.Well, I've always thought Abraham was THE MAN! He was human (which I think is a good thing), and, next to Christ, I think he was the greatest example we have of patience, long suffering, and completely unwavering faith.
consiglieri Posted February 24, 2010 Author Posted February 24, 2010 Well, I've always thought Abraham was THE MAN! He was human (which I think is a good thing), and, next to Christ, I think he was the greatest example we have of patience, long suffering, and completely unwavering faith.I agree with you that his humanity is what crowns his goodness.Strange as it may seem, in defending the textual accounts of Abraham's humanity against others who would try to deify him in mortality, I feel I am not only defending the Biblical accounts, but also the true glory that is Abraham's.All the Best!--Consiglieri
sjdawg Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 Nor, of course, did Sarah lie, seeing as how she was, indeed, Abraham's sister.Incidentally, withholding truth is not the same as lying. The notion that people have a right to truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is mistaken, and certainly inconsistent with the wisdom and economy of God. I realize that is a difficult concept for some, but it is nonetheless true.Yeah, I can't understand where anyone would get that idea.Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel:
Brenda Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 Yeah, I can't understand where anyone would get that idea.Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel:
William Schryver Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 Yeah, I can't understand where anyone would get that idea.Lying is intentionally deceiving others. Bearing false witness is one form of lying. The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel:
volgadon Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan
consiglieri Posted February 24, 2010 Author Posted February 24, 2010 "Even though Abraham was correct in calling her his sister, he did deceive the Egyptians. How can this action be justified? The answer is very simple. His action was justified because God told him to do it (see Abraham 2:22
volgadon Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 I agree with you that his humanity is what crowns his goodness.Strange as it may seem, in defending the textual accounts of Abraham's humanity against others who would try to deify him in mortality, I feel I am not only defending the Biblical accounts, but also the true glory that is Abraham's.All the Best!--ConsiglieriNot only Joseph Smith, Jr. was a rough stone rolling. Abraham was human, so are we. Abraham rose above himself eventually, so can we.
consiglieri Posted February 24, 2010 Author Posted February 24, 2010 Sure, their hearts are good. Their desires are righteous. They mean well. They love their neighbor.But they are strangers to wisdom, and fools as to the ways and means of their adversaries. Therefore they can never become heirs of the Almighty -- at least until they come to understand what is required in order to possess and wield the knowledge and powers of God.<sigh>And here I thought having a good heart, righteous desires, meaning well and loving our neighbors was the most important thing.Go figure.And as for your last paragraph, I haven't a clue what you are talking about, Will. Care to expound, since you are so obviously in the know?All the Best!--Consiglieri
consiglieri Posted February 24, 2010 Author Posted February 24, 2010 Not only Joseph Smith, Jr. was a rough stone rolling. Abraham was human, so are we. Abraham rose above himself eventually, so can we.Well put.Abraham's story means more to me when I see him as going from faltering in faith and groping for answers while trying to do the right thing, leading him to his triumphant obedience to the most difficult and inscrutible command of God to sacrifice his son.If Abraham is perfect from the beginning and all the way through, the meaning for me is diminished if not obliterated.All the Best!--Consiglieri
katherine the great Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 My mom's cousin married a Polish woman. That woman's father had smuggled his family out of Poland. She stopped telling that story to people in the church because they roundly condemned her father for dishonesty, deceit and smuggling.Wow. I'm speechless...
Deborah Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 Wow. I'm speechless... Me too! Apparently members are confusing today's illegal immigration problem with the truly dire and dangerous circumstances of Nazi controlled Europe.
consiglieri Posted February 24, 2010 Author Posted February 24, 2010 Wow. I'm speechless... Sometimes I have a really hard time with Mormons . . .
sjdawg Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 Sometimes I have a really hard time with Mormons . . .I had a good friend once tell me. "I love the LDS Church. It's hanging around with all the mormons that I hate"
volgadon Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 Me too! Apparently members are confusing today's illegal immigration problem with the truly dire and dangerous circumstances of Nazi controlled Europe.They left during Soviet times, but yeah. when I feel like I might be getting self-righteous, I read Maupassant's Boule de Suif.
volgadon Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 Sometimes I have a really hard time with Mormons . . .Luckily, most I know aren't like that.
Zakuska Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 Well put.Abraham's story means more to me when I see him as going from faltering in faith and groping for answers while trying to do the right thing, leading him to his triumphant obedience to the most difficult and inscrutible command of God to sacrifice his son.If Abraham is perfect from the beginning and all the way through, the meaning for me is diminished if not obliterated.All the Best!--ConsiglieriAMEN!We used the example of Peter on my mission. Some one full of vengence Lies and blood lust to one of the most Spiritual leaders of the church, yet still Human enough to hold on to some of his old ways "RE: Gentiles and eating".
volgadon Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 Did God tell Jacob to cheat his brother out of his birthright for a mess of pottage?No cheating involved. Completely straightforward transaction, though not perhaps the kindest. I find it hard to believe that the only food in camp was Jacob's pot.Did God tell Jacob to cheat Laban of his flocks by putting striped and speckled rods in front of the strong ones so they could see them when they mated?Actually, that is exactly what the text indicates did happen. Laban though thought that Jacob was incredibly naive and would end up with the short end of the stick. Basically, Laban thought he was taking advantage of Jacob, but the tables turned. Interesting parallel there with the BoM, except this Laban didn't lose his life.
Deborah Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 They left during Soviet times, but yeah. My ancestors left Lithuania to escape Soviet oppression as well. These were real political refugees. I'm still amazed that anyone, much less Mormons, would take issue with the Poles or anyone else escaping Soviet dictatorship. Were these young people who did not live during the Cold War and are totally ignorant of history?
Brenda Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Did God tell Sarah to lie about having laughed when she heard Abraham's three visitors say she would conceive?Did God tell Isaac to tell the same lie about Rebekah to Abimilech?Did God tell Jacob to cheat his brother out of his birthright for a mess of pottage?Did God tell Jacob (and Rebekah) to steal his brother's blessing from his father by dressing up as Esau and fooling a blind Isaac?Did God tell Laban to cheat Jacob of his promised marriage to Rachel by sneaking in Leah behind a veil on their wedding night? (Oh, wait, this one is okay because we don't like Laban anyway. But really, what is the difference in their actions?)Did God tell Jacob to cheat Laban of his flocks by putting striped and speckled rods in front of the strong ones so they could see them when they mated?Did God tell Rachel to steal Laban's idols?Once we set out to make excuses for all this behavior that offends 21st century Mormon ideals, we have taken on a weighty task that will almost surely result in unsatisfactory answers.I continue to maintain that the better approach is to listen to what the text is trying to tell us rather than impose our modern sense of morality in an effort to absolve the ancient worthies of "blame."All the Best!--ConsiglieriI don't know. My post was a direct quote from the institute manual. Not my words.
Brenda Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 My mom's cousin married a Polish woman. That woman's father had smuggled his family out of Poland. She stopped telling that story to people in the church because they roundly condemned her father for dishonesty, deceit and smuggling.Sorry, but I find this hard to believe.
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