Have things changed?

[mfbukowski]

Family, heritage, community.

Join a social club. You don't need a church. Maybe facebook would do.

[Tsuzuki]

Join a social club. You don't need a church. Maybe facebook would do.

You don't need a church to have orthodox opinions, either. The whole point of a church is to be a social manifestation of the gospel.

[divinenature]

Join a social club. You don't need a church. Maybe facebook would do.

According to several talks facebook is a bad idea. We just had one in our stake about getting pre-mission boys OFF of it.

Family does not equal "social club" nor does heritage. If ones family and heritage are the LDS church why should they want be forced to leave it? Leaving this particular church carries certain consequences. Yes?

Or is the LDS church no different from a social club?

Do you feel that there is no difference between the community of a ward and typing on a keyboard to people who you don't even know? I find the comparison extremely sad.

[mfbukowski]

In many cases, I think the excommunicated member uses "academic freedom" and "intellectual honesty" as masks for a political agenda (usually feminism and/or gay rights).

And yet he posts the details on the internet obviously with the objective of justifying his position. How is that different? In my opinion, it is not different. In this context, I think that in itself shows an "insolent" attitude. He is publicly defying the church's decision.

Do you believe that Adam was the first man on Earth? That Noah's flood wiped out the dinosaurs? That polygamy was instituted to care for poor widows? That Abraham's own hand wrote on the very same papyrus in Joseph Smith's possession?

Are you a "good Latter-day Saint" who follows the counsel of Apostle Mark E. Petersen regarding the location of the Hill Cumorah or do you "question the integrity of Joseph Smith"?

Big big difference. I believe the church is true. Wright thought the church was a "lie".

This logic in explaining the differences between the Genesis, Book of Moses, and Book of Abraham creation stories shows that the real order of composition was Genesis, Book of Moses and then Book of Abraham. This corresponds with the date of their production: the Bible is old and the KJV was produced in 1611; the Book of Moses was produced in c. 1830; D&C 77 in 1832; and the Book of Abraham in 1835 and thereafter. The traditional order of Book of Abraham, then Book of Moses, then Genesis, does not make conceptual sense. Why would the Moses account, presumably later than Book of Abraham in this view, place the spiritual creation of humans on the sixth day after Abraham had given such a nice presentation? These considerations show that Genesis is the primary text and the others are responses to it.

Conclusion: These evidences coupled with Thompson's observations show that the Book of Abraham is not the composition of Abraham, not historical, and, in fact, the product of Joseph Smith's creative--inspired, if you will--exegesis. This auctorial conclusion can be made with confidence. It is far from a wild speculation. In contrast it must be noted that much of the scholarship that has been written defending the antiquity of the book (and Abrahamic authorship or its historicity), most of it by Hugh Nibley, is weak and speculative if not essentially flawed by lack of precision in reading texts and by methodological looseness.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/dpwonboa.shtml

In his own words:

It is a sad day when those committed to discovery and truth are forced to stand away from the Church. It is a sad day when the search for truth must be pursued outside the Church.

He admits he must "stand away" from the church, yet protests his excommunication. What does he want anyway? To stand away from the church and have the church not stand away from him?

And in his wife's words:

David cannot say that there is evidence to support something just to make people like him or even to protect his membership in this church. David's beliefs are based on a careful, detailed study of the scriptures. To be orthodox, David would have to say that the evidence that he sees in the scriptures is not there. In other words, (from his viewpoint) he would need to lie.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/dpw.shtml

If you do not believe in Santa Claus, why would you want to have Christmas?

In fact, I do not believe in Santa Claus. For me, Christmas is the celebration of the savior's birth. Pretty weird huh?

[mfbukowski]

You don't need a church to have orthodox opinions, either. The whole point of a church is to be a social manifestation of the gospel.

Gee, I don't recall that one among the three fold mission or four purposes. Must have missed it. Priesthood, temple ordinances- how are those "social"?

All the opinions in the world won't give you valid ordinances.

[mfbukowski]

According to several talks facebook is a bad idea. We just had one in our stake about getting pre-mission boys OFF of it.

Family does not equal "social club" nor does heritage. If ones family and heritage are the LDS church why should they want be forced to leave it? Leaving this particular church carries certain consequences. Yes?

Or is the LDS church no different from a social club?

Do you feel that there is no difference between the community of a ward and typing on a keyboard to people who you don't even know? I find the comparison extremely sad.

This is very confused. I don't know what you are talking about. I am not in the church for social reasons. I am in the church because I know it is true and I believe in the priesthood and ordinances and the spirit. I bless others and they bless me. That is the only "social reason" I have.

I don't have a clue what you are talking about. We all need to be converts to the gospel, regardless how long our family has been in the church. If you don't believe in the church, you don't belong. You like Wright are living a lie. You are either part of the solution or part of the problem.

[handys003]

It's a good thing the SSCE has already infiltrated the Seventy.

Dare I ask, but what is the SSCE?

[Tsuzuki]

Gee, I don't recall that one among the three fold mission or four purposes. Must have missed it. Priesthood, temple ordinances- how are those "social"?

Which of those ordinances can be done alone? I would like to see someone try to baptize themself.

All the opinions in the world won't give you valid ordinances.

That's my point. It requires at least an elementary social structure.

[Tsuzuki]

Dare I ask, but what is the SSCE?

Secret Society of Cavernous Evil.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

One of the problems with exit narratives is that you only get one side of the story, because the church does not comment on disciplinary councils. In certain cases, however, I get the impression that the story is basically accurate. Regarding the excommunication of scholars and intellectuals, I've heard from some people that times have changed; i.e., that members are now free to express doubts and publish their research without fear of reprisal. However, I've heard from other people that certain seventies have been tasked with monitoring this board for the purpose of identifying candidates for excommunication. Which is it?

They have real work to do...so not a chance. BTW my name is not Bill Lee, just in case.

[Deborah]

I am skeptical of anyone who chooses to publish letters which should be personal to get sympathy for his side. I am also skeptical of anyone who feels the need to preach his findings as more correct than what the church teaches. These people do not understand the difference between studying and coming to theories which contradict the church and then openly preaching their personal theories as the truth. We can all come up with our own ideas of how things happened, ie creation, but that doesn't mean we have the right to teach this as doctrine.

I find it interesting that Wright's thousands of hours of research led him to different conclusions than other scholars who have also spent thousands of hours of research, but his conclusions are truth while that of others is not.

[Deborah]

I was referring to the "crazy people" Deborah mentioned. Now, anyone who identifies him/herself in what Deborah said. . . .

It was actually bluebell who said that but it is something I'd say.

[Deborah]

These cases (like David Wright's and, I hate to say it but, Galileo's) are troubling. Lack of orthodoxy should not be grounds for excommunication.

This comparison is disturbing. I doubt if the issue in Wright's case is orthodoxy so much as open rebellion against the the church.

[alter idem]

One of the problems with exit narratives is that you only get one side of the story, because the church does not comment on disciplinary councils. In certain cases, however, I get the impression that the story is basically accurate. Regarding the excommunication of scholars and intellectuals, I've heard from some people that times have changed; i.e., that members are now free to express doubts and publish their research without fear of reprisal. However, I've heard from other people that certain seventies have been tasked with monitoring this board for the purpose of identifying candidates for excommunication. Which is it?

I think people come up with these claims (that the church would waste very busy men's time by having them 'monitor' this board) because deep down inside they need to feel like someone's actually reading what they write and is aware of their feelings, dreams, thoughts, complaints, resentments, pain. They left the church, they want SOMEONE to care, they want someone to be upset that they left, they want to feel they matter and their thoughts matter.

But it's not reasonable to think the church cares much about this board or any others outside their own websites.

[divinenature]

This is very confused. I don't know what you are talking about. I am not in the church for social reasons. I am in the church because I know it is true and I believe in the priesthood and ordinances and the spirit. I bless others and they bless me. That is the only "social reason" I have.

I don't have a clue what you are talking about. We all need to be converts to the gospel, regardless how long our family has been in the church. If you don't believe in the church, you don't belong. You like Wright are living a lie. You are either part of the solution or part of the problem.

How can one be part of any solution (within the church) if they are forced out of it? They cannot.

Do non-literalists not have the right to bless and be blessed within the community of the LDS church? I believe they do.

Luckily, you do not set the standards for who may or may not fellowship with the saints. I am unaware of any questions a non-temple recommend holding member must answer to remain in the church. I am also unaware of any questions about literal belief in the TR interview.

Are you one who also suggests people move out of the country if they do not agree with every single thing going on in America? Because this would be the same type of situation. A person can love their country and see the good in it without agreeing with everything. In fact, they can even peacefully protest things they disagree with.

I can see the good in the church even if I disagree with some things and have a differing theology. It is my family and where I find fellowship. I have no reason to leave it just because my faith is no longer (mis)placed in the institution.

I'm sorry that you have such a hard time understanding why a non-believer or someone without a testimony would want to stay in the church. That might explain your lack of compassion towards them.

[Redefined]

I think people come up with these claims (that the church would waste very busy men's time by having them 'monitor' this board) because deep down inside they need to feel like someone's actually reading what they write and is aware of their feelings, dreams, thoughts, complaints, resentments, pain. They left the church, they want SOMEONE to care, they want someone to be upset that they left, they want to feel they matter and their thoughts matter.

But it's not reasonable to think the church cares much about this board or any others outside their own websites.

Yes, you are right, I don't think that the leadership or current Mormons care about an ExMo's complaints or feelings. Maybe that is why there is a need for forums that provide a community of people that care like P-Mo. The families of ExMo's should at least care and want to listen.

[juliann]

Yes, you are right, I don't think that the leadership or current Mormons care about an ExMo's complaints or feelings. Maybe that is why there is a need for forums that provide a community of people that care like P-Mo. The families of ExMo's should at least care and want to listen.

She was clearly referring to this board and not anybody's "feelings" but why pass up the chance to score a point with a little misrepresentation?

[Redefined]

She was clearly referring to this board and not anybody's "feelings" but why pass up the chance to score a point with a little misrepresentation?

I think people come up with these claims (that the church would waste very busy men's time by having them 'monitor' this board) because deep down inside they need to feel like someone's actually reading what they write and is aware of their feelings, dreams, thoughts, complaints, resentments, pain. They left the church, they want SOMEONE to care, they want someone to be upset that they left, they want to feel they matter and their thoughts matter.

But it's not reasonable to think the church cares much about this board or any others outside their own websites.

Emphasis added by me.

And I was actually agreeing with her! So please don't make my comment something it wasn't.

[William Schryver]

Mortal Man:

These cases (like David Wright's and, I hate to say it but, Galileo's) are troubling.

I always enjoy a good belly laugh when people (this is not the first time it has happened) compare David Wright to Galileo. As one who has made David Wright's published journal entries a focus of specific study, on account of their constituting a veritable treasure trove of the inner workings of the apostate mind, I am always intrigued by those who have, evidently, been greatly influenced by Wright's self-justifications. Of course, it surprises me not at all to see that Mortal Man has now apparently come to view Wright as some kind of personal hero. I have no doubt that he will hasten to follow his mentor in every respect.

Lack of orthodoxy should not be grounds for excommunication.

There are certainly degrees of mild heterodoxy that are not grounds for excommunication. But apostasy always is, and ought to be.

[Zakuska]

It's a good thing the SSCE has already infiltrated the Seventy.

And here I thought it was the UMWs.

[bluebell]

Emphasis added by me.

And I was actually agreeing with her! So please don't make my comment something it wasn't.

I think Julian's point is that you weren't agree with her, you were agreeing with an interpretation of what she wrote that probably (she can speak for herself) wasn't correct.

From my point of view, alter wasn't saying that the church doesn't care about individual Ex-mo's but that they don't care about annoymous ex-mo message boards.

There is a difference between the two that you have failed to recognize.

[juliann]

Are you one who also suggests people move out of the country if they do not agree with every single thing going on in America? Because this would be the same type of situation. A person can love their country and see the good in it without agreeing with everything. In fact, they can even peacefully protest things they disagree with.

I can see the good in the church even if I disagree with some things and have a differing theology. It is my family and where I find fellowship. I have no reason to leave it just because my faith is no longer (mis)placed in the institution.

He expressed an opinion. You don't agree. It isn't the end of the world or anybody's citizenship.

I'm sorry that you have such a hard time understanding why a non-believer or someone without a testimony would want to stay in the church. That might explain your lack of compassion towards them.

Whatever you are labeling a lack of compassion is no different than what I see dumped onbelievers everyday. In fact, the amount of abuse that complete strangers on a message board who are Mormon are expected to take from those who don't agree with them is astounding. If the complaining wasn't effective while a member it is irrational to expect it to work any better after leaving.

[juliann]

I think Julian's point is that you weren't agree with her, you were agreeing with an interpretation of what she wrote that probably (she can speak for herself) wasn't correct.

From my point of view, alter wasn't saying that the church doesn't care about individual Ex-mo's but that they don't care about annoymous ex-mo message boards.

There is a difference between the two that you have failed to recognize.

She recognizes it...that is why she goes to such silly extremes to pretend she was really just agreeing when she gets called on it.

[Redefined]

I think Julian's point is that you weren't agree with her, you were agreeing with an interpretation of what she wrote that probably (she can speak for herself) wasn't correct.

From my point of view, alter wasn't saying that the church doesn't care about individual Ex-mo's but that they don't care about annoymous ex-mo message boards.

There is a difference between the two that you have failed to recognize.

Thank you bluebell, I see what you are saying. When I read this sentence from alter idem: "They left the church, they want SOMEONE to care, they want someone to be upset that they left, they want to feel they matter and their thoughts matter.", i understood it as the exmember's feelings not mattering much to the church. Sorry for misunderstanding your statement alter idem.

[Calm]

Gee, I don't recall that one among the three fold mission or four purposes. Must have missed it. Priesthood, temple ordinances- how are those "social"?

All the opinions in the world won't give you valid ordinances.

"Social" doesn't always mean "party time". It also means community as in "community of saints working together for the perfecting of the Saints, redeeming the...."