Zakuska Posted December 29, 2009 Posted December 29, 2009 It's funny that traditional Christians repeatedly quote Romans, as if it supports their view that only talk and alleged belief will save: Clearly, even Paul, their imagined advocate of not doing works, says that you have to agree to obey Jesus (i.e. confess Jesus as Lord) in order to be saved. I've never heard of evangelicals following this advice as part of their rituals of alleged-salvation. It's always, "I accept Jesus into my heart," or something to that effect. No agreement to obey.I agree. Thus formerLDS' thread a few weeks ago claiming he could sin all he wanted after his "Saving Event" and it would not effect his salvation one Iota.
johndoe Posted December 29, 2009 Posted December 29, 2009 Honestly, there is a focus in the LDS church on works. And I have come across many, many members that seem to have a checklist mentality when it comes to salvation/exaltation. Got faith? Check. Repent? Check. Baptized? Check. Have priesthood? Check. Went on a mission? Check. Married in temple? Check. Etc.Add to this a seemingly obsessive focus on blessings that some members have and you come up with a strange kind of celestial accounting system that appears to be exactly what our critics claim all of us believe - a system of earning one's way into the highest degree of heaven. That doesn't reflect actual doctrine though, at least in my opinion.There are some big differences between our view and the view of most nonLDS protestant Christians, but the belief that we can earn our way into the celestial kingdom isn't really one of them. Here are the big differences:1. LDS do not believe that salvation/exaltation (I do not mean resurrection alone) is an all or nothing prospect. The very belief in degrees of glory makes this whole discussion a bit tricky. 2. LDS believe that we can fall from grace. Now, some nonLDS Christians agree, but very many do not. This is really the tip of the iceberg. Add the rest of the Calvinist TULIP and you arrive at a situation where God really does all the work, without even any significant choice that any given person can make that will make a difference. We LDS believe that the deciding factor lies within us, it is within our agency to choose to be saved/exalted or not.These two differences sum up the whole enchilada I believe. The LDS view can be stated simply that to be exalted, we must choose to allow the Spirit to work in us to the point where we are made actually perfect and one with God. We believe it is indeed our choice, a choice that God has granted that we make for ourselves. Once we are on the path, we are free to leave it. If we continually choose to ignore God's direction in our lives, at some point the Spirit will cease striving with us and we are lost. If we continually choose to follow God's direction in our lives, stumbling along the way, eventually we are made perfect. If we choose to follow God's direction, but only up to a certain point, holding on to our favorite sins, then we cannot progress to perfection - we remain somewhere in the middle.It is not really about earning a higher level through works, but rather our works being a reflection of the choices we make to serve God or not. In that sense, how is choosing to be married in the temple different from choosing to honor our parents? Or from choosing to live an honest life? When the Spirit directs us to act, we either follow that direction or we do not. The specific acts are less important, but we LDS believe that the Spirit will definitely direct us to do such things as get married in the temple.
oceancoast Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Honestly, there is a focus in the LDS church on works. And I have come across many, many members that seem to have a checklist mentality when it comes to salvation/exaltation. Got faith? Check. Repent? Check. Baptized? Check. Have priesthood? Check. Went on a mission? Check. Married in temple? Check. Etc.Add to this a seemingly obsessive focus on blessings that some members have and you come up with a strange kind of celestial accounting system that appears to be exactly what our critics claim all of us believe - a system of earning one's way into the highest degree of heaven. That doesn't reflect actual doctrine though, at least in my opinion.There are some big differences between our view and the view of most nonLDS protestant Christians, but the belief that we can earn our way into the celestial kingdom isn't really one of them. Here are the big differences:1. LDS do not believe that salvation/exaltation (I do not mean resurrection alone) is an all or nothing prospect. The very belief in degrees of glory makes this whole discussion a bit tricky. 2. LDS believe that we can fall from grace. Now, some nonLDS Christians agree, but very many do not. This is really the tip of the iceberg. Add the rest of the Calvinist TULIP and you arrive at a situation where God really does all the work, without even any significant choice that any given person can make that will make a difference. We LDS believe that the deciding factor lies within us, it is within our agency to choose to be saved/exalted or not.These two differences sum up the whole enchilada I believe. The LDS view can be stated simply that to be exalted, we must choose to allow the Spirit to work in us to the point where we are made actually perfect and one with God. We believe it is indeed our choice, a choice that God has granted that we make for ourselves. Once we are on the path, we are free to leave it. If we continually choose to ignore God's direction in our lives, at some point the Spirit will cease striving with us and we are lost. If we continually choose to follow God's direction in our lives, stumbling along the way, eventually we are made perfect. If we choose to follow God's direction, but only up to a certain point, holding on to our favorite sins, then we cannot progress to perfection - we remain somewhere in the middle.It is not really about earning a higher level through works, but rather our works being a reflection of the choices we make to serve God or not. In that sense, how is choosing to be married in the temple different from choosing to honor our parents? Or from choosing to live an honest life? When the Spirit directs us to act, we either follow that direction or we do not. The specific acts are less important, but we LDS believe that the Spirit will definitely direct us to do such things as get married in the temple.Well said..
Garden Girl Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Yes, we LDS do have a different view of "works" than many other Christians, but we believe that it is only through Christ's atoning sacrifice and his grace that we receive salvation... (as has been shown time and again in the faith vs works threads and the numerous scriptures supporting "works")...I do not believe that I can "earn" my way into the Celestial Kingdom, but I view my various works as part of obeying and striving to be more Christlike, to strive to do the things Christ would do, to allow the Spirit to work within me to follow his admonishment offered numerous times to obey his commandments.Therefore, I also take seriously His admonition... Matt 22:37-40 "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord your God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind... This is the first and great commandment...And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself... On these two commandments hang all of the law and the prophets.And in John 13:34-35 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another... By this shall all men know ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."To obey and keep the commandment to love my neighbor as myself, for instance, requires action on my part...And I also look to Rev 20:12 for guidance "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."GG
Tanyan Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Seriously/Honestly [Carmela ?] The True Salvation Formula To enter Heaven and obtain it's Highest reward is by Grace [charis] alone through Faith [pistis] alone as administerted by the LORD OF LIFE CHRIST JESUS Authorized Servants. A correct understanding of the greek word "pistis" is vital in it's anchient middle eastern meaning [along with Grace - charis] . Salvation maintenence is required to stay in the Covenant of Jesus Christs blood sacrifice for us all so as we can be and remain Saved and Exhalted [ No Once Saved Always Saved]. We perform labors Of Love born out of Love for GOD/Jesus Christ/Holy Ghost not to obtain full salvation on our own but to show our Love and Thank you like a patron client love agreement so as the payment done for us gets us in. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan , LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Seriously/Honestly [Carmela ?]She is without a doubt NOT CARMela.
Vance Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Seriouslyhonestly has been nothing but courteous and civil here. Definitely NOT CARMela!!!!
Zakuska Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Seriouslyhonestly has been nothing but courteous and civil here. Definitely NOT CARMela!!!!Perhaps she's finnally got her sock puppet in order and is taking reeeallly good acting course?
Vance Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Perhaps she's finnally got her sock puppet in order and is taking reeeallly good acting course?All I can say is that I have had nothing but a positive experience with Seriouslyhonestly. (Admittedly, I haven't been here long). So, until proven otherwise, I will not believe it possible that Seriouslyhonestly is CARMela.
seriously honestly Posted December 30, 2009 Author Posted December 30, 2009 Seriously/Honestly [Carmela ?]Ouch, Tanyan. I was not expecting something like that from you. No, Im not carmela. Her and I are nothing alike. For starters, she appears to get a kick out watching LDS memebers get beat up into a corner, her post come across as being superior and that she is out to prove what idiots she believes LDS people to be for believing in Mormonism, and her attitude and the attitude of others over at carm who cheer eachother on for cheap shots and repetitive and counterproductive arguments is the reason why I deceided to take a break from that site in the first place.
seriously honestly Posted December 30, 2009 Author Posted December 30, 2009 Perhaps she's finnally got her sock puppet in order and is taking reeeallly good acting course???????????????????
Zakuska Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 ??????????????????It was tongue in cheek. thus the moticon.For you to be Carmella you would have to have been severly coached! Either that or Bipolar.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 It was tongue in cheek. thus the moticon.For you to be Carmella you would have to have been severly coached! Either that or Bipolar.I vote for bipolar.Good thing SH is not Carmella. That much is obvious.
seriously honestly Posted December 30, 2009 Author Posted December 30, 2009 It was tongue in cheek. thus the moticon.For you to be Carmella you would have to have been severly coached! Either that or Bipolar.ok...i take back my question marks. I jumped on that one too quick.
Tanyan Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Ouch, Tanyan. I was not expecting something like that from you. No, Im not carmela. Her and I are nothing alike. For starters, she appears to get a kick out watching LDS memebers get beat up into a corner, her post come across as being superior and that she is out to prove what idiots she believes LDS people to be for believing in Mormonism, and her attitude and the attitude of others over at carm who cheer eachother on for cheap shots and repetitive and counterproductive arguments is the reason why I deceided to take a break from that site in the first place. Just being cautious, and doing the the wolves in sheep clothing watch. Benefit of the doubt give you I will. What say you about the rest of my post ?. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
oceancoast Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Perhaps she's finnally got her sock puppet in order and is taking reeeallly good acting course?She was always very courteous to me at CARM, and I think the environment over there is getting pretty bad. I was told yesterday the Mormonism forum is for Criticizing Mormons. Just so you all know now. that's it's official purpose, not that I am surprised.
oceancoast Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 ok...i take back my question marks. I jumped on that one too quick.Hey, SH, finally got back over here and wanted to say I enjoyed your OP.. In fact I find little about it to disagree with. I am sure we do have differences in opinion on some aspect of what works are important to be doing to manifest ones faith, but for the most part I agree with your post.
oceancoast Posted December 30, 2009 Posted December 30, 2009 Ouch, Tanyan. I was not expecting something like that from you. No, Im not carmela. Her and I are nothing alike. For starters, she appears to get a kick out watching LDS memebers get beat up into a corner, her post come across as being superior and that she is out to prove what idiots she believes LDS people to be for believing in Mormonism, and her attitude and the attitude of others over at carm who cheer eachother on for cheap shots and repetitive and counterproductive arguments is the reason why I deceided to take a break from that site in the first place.Who is carmela?? Is that Catherine Aurieas/Athanasius, GoldenContact or magdalena?
seriously honestly Posted January 1, 2010 Author Posted January 1, 2010 Just being cautious, and doing the the wolves in sheep clothing watch. Benefit of the doubt give you I will. What say you about the rest of my post ?. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.Here is what I have to say about itThe True Salvation Formula To enter Heaven and obtain it's Highest reward is by Grace [charis] alone through Faith [pistis] alone as administerted by the LORD OF LIFE CHRIST JESUS Authorized Servants.Maybe I'm reading this wrong, so please let me know if I am. At first it sounds like your saying the the only way to have true salvation is to have it administered to you by someone down here, although I think the message you are trying to convey is that the saving ordinances (those pertaining to the LDS church) must be administered by someone who has authority. Ether way, I disagree (naturally); no one down here has the authority to give anyone else salvation, or has the ability to administer it. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone.Salvation maintenence is required to stay in the Covenant of Jesus Christs blood sacrifice for us all so as we can be and remain Saved and Exhalted [ No Once Saved Always Saved].just what that salvation maintenance is is what we disagree on. There are a lot of things that the LDS church says are necessary/required for salvation (or at the very least to be in good standing with the LDS church) that I don't believe to be so, for example temple marriage, following the Word of wisdom (although I do believe it has its benefit, I don't believe that choosing to follow it or not will affect your salvation), fasting the first Sunday of every month, etc.
Zakuska Posted January 1, 2010 Posted January 1, 2010 Maybe I'm reading this wrong, so please let me know if I am. At first it sounds like your saying the the only way to have true salvation is to have it administered to you by someone down here, although I think the message you are trying to convey is that the saving ordinances (those pertaining to the LDS church) must be administered by someone who has authority. Ether way, I disagree (naturally); no one down here has the authority to give anyone else salvation, or has the ability to administer it. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone.Paul would disagree with you.Rom. 11: 1414 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 1 Cor. 9: 2222 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Obadia would seem to agree with Paul.Ob. 121 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord
seriously honestly Posted January 1, 2010 Author Posted January 1, 2010 Paul would disagree with you.Rom. 11: 1414 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 1 Cor. 9: 2222 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. Obadia would seem to agree with Paul.Ob. 121 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lord
Zakuska Posted January 1, 2010 Posted January 1, 2010 Do you sincerely believe that Paul was saying he had the ability to save people and grant them salvation?He had the ability to point them to the fountian of life. He also had the same keys as Peter had. The ability to seal and loose both on heaven and earth. You seem to be of the mistaken notion that all we need is Jesus. What of those whom he sends?
seriously honestly Posted January 1, 2010 Author Posted January 1, 2010 He had the ability to point them to the fountian of life. He also had the same keys as Peter had. The ability to seal and loose both on heaven and earth. You seem to be of the mistaken notion that all we need is Jesus. What of those whom he sends?The ability to point someone in the right direction, to teach and to guide, is not the same as having the ability to actually give someone eternal life. For example, if there was an opening at my place of work and I knew you were looking for a job, I could tell you about it, give you some pointers, I could introduce you to people, but I wouldn't actually be able to give you the job; the only one able to do that is the boss. (obviously this isn't a perfect example; the boss could still say no if (s)he wanted to. If you sincerely are seeking Christ I wont reject you when you call out to Him)Jesus sends people to others to preach of Him, not of themselves. I don't remember Paul speaking of his own glory or human sacrifice for our behalf or anything of the sort. His message was of Christ.ps. your message box is full; I didn't want to have to bother you at CARM, but I did anyway.
oceancoast Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 Better Nate than Lever.. I'll try to put together a response.. But Just wanted to let you know I found your thread.Hey, SH, finally got back over here and wanted to say I enjoyed your OP.. In fact I find little about it to disagree with. I am sure we do have differences in opinion on some aspect of what works are important to be doing to manifest ones faith, but for the most part I agree with your post.
Echo Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 A NON LDS perspective of salvation by faith ALONE:In thinking of our physical birth to our parents on this earth, everyone realizes that a newborn baby didn
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