Christianity and works

[Vance]

No not salvation. I already pointed out you can't earn salvation. I was refering to things that would aid in one earning/obtaing exaltation. If one wants exaltation, and not one of the lesser kingdoms or just a general salvation, then there are things that an individual must do, correct?

Yes, they must exercise true faith in Christ and be obedient to His commandments. If they aren't obedient then they will not be given the gift of eternal life/exaltation. If they are obedient then they will be given the gift of eternal life.

As Paul says,

Rom 2:6 (God) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[seriously honestly]

SH, my fellow posters seem to be on the attack and seem to not understand what the purpose of this thread is. Either that or I have completly mis-understood your responce to me.

You must remember that most of the times other Christian groups try to say that we can work our way to hevean. I don't think that is a position that you think we hold.

I wouldn't say you work to earn your way to heaven, but I'll be honest and tell you that I have a hard time understanding why people say works play absoultly no part in helping them obtain exaltation, especially when exaltation has certain requirements that one must follow through with in order to "qualify" so to speak (not the best word, don't hold it against me though).

No one needs to be on the attack. that's not why I'm here.

[seriously honestly]

We cannot "earn" our salvation (or exaltation). It simply is beyond our ability to do so. No matter what we do in this life, on our own, we will NEVER be able to rise from the grave and ascend into heaven.

So then, we could spend our entire lives, doing everything possible to please and serve God, and we would still be "unprofitable" servants.

That is just the way it is.

True, but there are things that you do that give you the advantage of exaltaion over me, right? What are the reasons why I can just have exaltation?

God has promised that if we are obedient to Him, He will give us eternal life. So then, if we do what He says, then because of His promise, He is bound, He has to give us the gift of eternal life. Otherwise, He becomes a liar.

So, one way to look at it is that, if we are obedient then we "earn" the promise of eternal life.

1 Jn. 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

(The entire chapter is beneficial in understanding the context.)

Also see

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Edited to add: Earning the "promise of eternal life" isn't the same as earning eternal life. I hope that is clear.

I think that because the promise is so sure, it is easy for people to confuse the two or speak as though they are they are the same. But technically speaking, they are not the same.

Do I agree with this? Yes, for the most part. But I don't get how you believe it works once exaltaion gets thrown into the equation....

[Vance]

We might be talking past each other a little bit.

What the word "salvation" means is a bit difficult to nail down.

In the strict (LDS) sense, it means being saved from death, or in other words resurrected. Which is a gift that is given to all.

However, its usage in the Bible doesn't follow this strict definition. There are many places in the Bible where it is synonymous with "eternal life"/exaltation.

I have been assuming that this is the way you have been using it. Until this last post, anyway.

So, to help me understand your last post, could you please explain what (to you) are the differences between "salvation" and "exaltation"/eternal life?

Thanks!

[seriously honestly]

In the strict (LDS) sense, it means being saved from death, or in other words resurrected. Which is a gift that is given to all.

Got that

However, its usage in the Bible doesn't follow this strict definition. There are many places in the Bible where it is synonymous with "eternal life"/exaltation.

I have been assuming that this is the way you have been using it. Until this last post, anyway.

that's not the way I've been using it but that is the way I see it though. So it looks like this to me: from the Bible, salvation/eteral life/exaltation are all the same. In Mormonins, salvation and eternal life/exaltation being two different things.

So, to help me understand your last post, could you please explain what (to you) are the differences between "salvation" and "exaltation"/eternal life?

Thanks!

to me from looking at it through the Bible, I don't see a difference. Looking at it through an LDS prespective I see salvation as something everyone will eventually receive for keeping their first estate, where as exaltation is something similar to extra credit, if you do what is required for it, you receive it. But if you don't, then you wont. (Best comparison I can come up with at the moment)

I hope that helps clear up how I see it

[Tanyan]

Full Salvation is Exhaltation, but we believe in degrees of salvation in which we believe are contitional on a individuals faithfulness to the covenant one enters into when they accept JESUS CHRIST as There Lord Of Life, Lord, Saviour, God, King, Master of there life and his Awesome sacrifice for them.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Mordecai]

2) If those that participate in this thread can

[bjw]

Full Salvation is Exhaltation, but we believe in degrees of salvation in which we believe are contitional on a individuals faithfulness to the covenant one enters into when they accept JESUS CHRIST as There Lord Of Life, Lord, Saviour, God, King, Master of there life and his Awesome sacrifice for them.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

I just thought I could add something here...

I didn't read all the poasts but I read a few. I think the biggest problem I've seen with debates between Mormons and Protestants regarding salvation is the difference in semantics. Like Tanyan said here, we believe that salvation includes full exaltation, including receiving all ordinances that take you to the highest of the Celestial Kingdom. In other words, those that merely "go to heaven" but don't reach the highest did not receive salvation. To protestants, salvation is merely what those receive that don't "go to hell."

With that in mind I have seen many protestant denominations that are much more legalistic than the LDS, and to me teach a works salvation. I went to Bible college back when I was a protestant at a college that taught Lordship Salvation, a view that showing evidence of salvation through works and constant discipleship are required to be saved. Many of these protestants claim they teach "grace alone" and that the works element is just the result of a genuine faith. Keep in mind in this view those that are not doing these things will receive eternal torment. The LDS view is much less legalistic and paints a much more compassionate view of God.

I've also seen the other side of the coin. My father is a member of a ministry that teaches "free-grace," in that merely a mental assent of the facts of the Gospel along with "asking Jesus into your heart" is all that is required for salvation, and that no amount of sinning or backsliding changes your position with God. While this is less legalistic, to me it ignores much of the New Testament's attitude toward the role of works.

I think many anti-mormons have used the difference in semantics to paint us as a "mind control cult" that teaches strict obedience. However, I like to think that we just teach people how to lead happier lives that Christ would want us to, and give us the ordinances we need to reach the highest heaven. It's entirely up to the member how many works they want to do. I've been a Mormon for over 5 years now, and I've never had people badger me about not doing enough, and at the Lordship church I was badgered many times.

In short, I think many people have a misconception of Mormonism.

[Vance]

In short, I think many people have a misconception of Mormonism.

AMEN!!! Brother.

But it is apparent that seriously honestly isn't one of them.

[Vance]

<SNIP>

I hope that helps clear up how I see it

In a way we were talking past each other. I was using your definition of salvation and you were using the strictly "LDS" definition. How weird is that?

[Vance]

But I don't get how you believe it works once exaltaion gets thrown into the equation....

Let me explain how I see it. (and I hope it won't bore you to death.)

The Bible makes it clear to me that the things Jesus taught are preeminent to all other teachings. (I can provide reference if you like.)

Any apparent conflict between the words of any other teacher (like Paul) must be reconciled to the words of Jesus and not the other way around.

Jesus was asked specifically, " . . . what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" (Matt 19:16)

His response was specific, ". . . if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (He then reiterated the basic commandments.)

He also taught this same principle with the parable of the sheep and the goats. (As asked before, what did the sheep do that the goats didn't?)

Also see Matt 25:31-46.

I could go on but, at this point I don't think it would be helpful.

I would just add that in summary, we have D&C 14:7 (which I provided above).

AND

D&C 82:7 And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.

8 And again, I say unto you, I give unto you a new commandment, that you may understand my will concerning you;

9 Or, in other words, I give unto you directions how you may act before me, that it may turn to you for your salvation.

10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

I think that for the most part we are in agreement on this.

As I see it, our biggest difference is what we consider "commandments". However, I suspect that if we started a comparison, we wouldn't be as far apart as you might think.

[seriously honestly]

The Bible makes it clear to me that the things Jesus taught are preeminent to all other teachings. (I can provide reference if you like.)

I love reference

Any apparent conflict between the words of any other teacher (like Paul) must be reconciled to the words of Jesus and not the other way around.

And I completely agree.

Jesus was asked specifically, " . . . what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?" (Matt 19:16)

His response was specific, ". . . if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (He then reiterated the basic commandments.)

Oh I'm not denying that we are to keep the commandments of God; nowhere in the NT are the commandments ever put aside.

He also taught this same principle with the parable of the sheep and the goats. (As asked before, what did the sheep do that the goats didn't?)

Also see Matt 25:31-46.

They were in the service of others and therefore in the service of Chirst. This passage seem similar to Luke 10:25-37 where we are told to love God and love our neighbor as ourselve, the greatest commandments and the foundation for the rest. Naturally if we love God and love our neighbor, then we will want to be in the service of others, and that which we do unto others we do unto Christ ("when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!") Those are the type of "work" I do believe we are to participate in; they are not so much for our benifit, but for the benifit of others that they may be led to believe and bring glory to God.

I could go on but, at this point I don't think it would be helpful.

??

I would just add that in summary, we have D&C 14:7 (which I provided above).

AND

D&C 82:7 And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.

8 And again, I say unto you, I give unto you a new commandment, that you may understand my will concerning you;

9 Or, in other words, I give unto you directions how you may act before me, that it may turn to you for your salvation.

10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

I think that for the most part we are in agreement on this.

Is this in the context of what happends when an individual turns from God? If that is the case, the yes, I agree

As I see it, our biggest difference is what we consider "commandments". However, I suspect that if we started a comparison, we wouldn't be as far apart as you might think.

I think there is a huge difference in we consider to be commmandment, but we can still start a comparison.

[Vance]

I love reference

Great, here you go.

From Deu 18:15

[Vance]

bump

[Zakuska]

Posted 5 days ago

Vance, on 09 December 2009 - 01:03 PM, said:

Or in other words,

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Also...

Matthew 7: 21

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

And still another...

John 14: 12

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

[seriously honestly]

Great, here you go.

From Deu 18:15

[Vance]

but they don't do anything to add to, or take away form, your salvation. That is what I mean.

I would beg to differ. Let me explain.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is designed to take us from where we are, to where Jesus is.

Being individuals we are all in different places relative to being like Jesus. Wherever we are, if we follow the gospel we will get closer to being like Jesus.

The reality of the Gospel isn't about doing so much as it is about being. But the doing helps us become. By doing works of righteousness we become more like Jesus (also, they are the things that Jesus would do).

So until we are like Jesus we need to continue with the doing and once we are like Jesus we will do them because that is what He would do.

Does that make sense to you?

As far as Baptisms for the Dead are concerned.

If Baptism is a requirement for entering the Celestial kingdom. This begs questions like,

1) What kind of baptism

2) by whom.

And,

3) what about people who didn't have the chance to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ in this life.

I am not sure if you want to get into this or how deep you want to go. So for now I will leave it at that.

[seriously honestly]

I would beg to differ. Let me explain.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is designed to take us from where we are, to where Jesus is.

Being individuals we are all in different places relative to being like Jesus. Wherever we are, if we follow the gospel we will get closer to being like Jesus.

The reality of the Gospel isn't about doing so much as it is about being. But the doing helps us become. By doing works of righteousness we become more like Jesus (also, they are the things that Jesus would do).

So until we are like Jesus we need to continue with the doing and once we are like Jesus we will do them because that is what He would do.

Does that make sense to you?

What I'm saysing is that out service to others isn't something that should be done with the expectation of recieving something extra when you get to heaven because of it, and that our actions do not earn us salvation.

As far as Baptisms for the Dead are concerned.

If Baptism is a requirement for entering the Celestial kingdom. This begs questions like,

1) What kind of baptism

2) by whom.

And,

3) what about people who didn't have the chance to hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ in this life.

I am not sure if you want to get into this or how deep you want to go. So for now I will leave it at that.

Baptism for the dead is one I should have left out of the list, as it has less to do with commandments affecting the living (obviously). I'll be honest and tell you that I don't know what happens to those that die but have never heard the Gospel. I've heard pretty convincing arguement for their damnation, but a part of me refuses to accept that (although that has more to do with my emotions then anything else)

[jadams_4242]

Hi, I haven

[jadams_4242]

What I'm saysing is that out service to others isn't something that should be done with the expectation of recieving something extra when you get to heaven because of it, and that our actions do not earn us salvation.

Baptism for the dead is one I should have left out of the list, as it has less to do with commandments affecting the living (obviously). I'll be honest and tell you that I don't know what happens to those that die but have never heard the Gospel. I've heard pretty convincing arguement for their damnation, but a part of me refuses to accept that (although that has more to do with my emotions then anything else)

"What I'm saysing is that out service to others isn't something that should be done with the expectation of recieving something extra when you get to heaven because of it, and that our actions do not earn us salvation."

{quote}

This is where the "heart" comes into understanding.

[Vance]

What I'm saysing is that out service to others isn't something that should be done with the expectation of recieving something extra when you get to heaven because of it, and that our actions do not earn us salvation.

I agree.

BUT! (I mean that in a nice way)

As I said earlier, we are all at different points in our quest to become like Jesus. As I see it, there are at least three motivators. Fear, duty, and love.

Obviously, Love should be what drives us to serve God and our fellowman. But some of us may not be there.

If we start out being obedient because we fear hell (or that we won't get the reward), that is better than no obedience at all, isn't it?

I believe that if we continue to obey, we will grow from doing out of fear to doing out of duty. And if we continue to obey, we will grow from doing out of duty to doing out of love.

Thus taking us from where we are to where Jesus is.

Baptism for the dead is one I should have left out of the list, as it has less to do with commandments affecting the living (obviously). I'll be honest and tell you that I don't know what happens to those that die but have never heard the Gospel. I've heard pretty convincing arguement for their damnation, but a part of me refuses to accept that (although that has more to do with my emotions then anything else)

Well, this brings us to a uniquely LDS doctrine of the Gospel being preached to the dead. We believe that while Jesus' body lay in the tomb, He in spirit went to the world of the spirits of the dead and organized His ministry there. His Gospel is being preached to all the dead who either didn't have a chance or didn't accept it when they did have a chance.

There is evidence that this doctrine was had and taught in the ancient church.

2 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Also

2 Pet 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

We believe that because God loves all men, He will make it possible for all men to have the opportunity to hear and accept His gospel.

Does this help?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I would beg to differ. Let me explain.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is designed to take us from where we are, to where Jesus is.

Being individuals we are all in different places relative to being like Jesus. Wherever we are, if we follow the gospel we will get closer to being like Jesus.

The reality of the Gospel isn't about doing so much as it is about being. But the doing helps us become. By doing works of righteousness we become more like Jesus (also, they are the things that Jesus would do).

So until we are like Jesus we need to continue with the doing and once we are like Jesus we will do them because that is what He would do.

Does that make sense to you?

In a sense one could liken this earth life unto practiing for a recitle. Jesus is the master piano player that is able to play all of the peices perfectly. We are the student. What Jesus atonement allows us to do is to start at the basics of learning the piano and to make mistakes, as long as we continue to practice he will allow us to play, until we are perfect at it like he is. We are all at different levels. The only way to get to were he is is by doing and working at it. Those that are unsaved would be equivalant to the person that just didn't want to practice.

I know this anology is not perfect as it has no elemnets of faith, all I am getting at though is that we become perfect only because we are allowed 2nd and 3rd chances to learn and grow. One cannot expect to become perfect merely by just confessing Jesus. Which I know you mostly agree with this. Or at least think that you agree with it.

That is the reason I think we (LDS) place alot of emphasis on faith and works, as we see it if we are not striving to be like Jesus, and do our part, Jesus isn't just going to do it for us.

[oceancoast]

Better Nate than Lever.. I'll try to put together a response.. But Just wanted to let you know I found your thread.

[Zakuska]

In a sense one could liken this earth life unto practiing for a recitle. Jesus is the master piano player that is able to play all of the peices perfectly. We are the student. What Jesus atonement allows us to do is to start at the basics of learning the piano and to make mistakes, as long as we continue to practice he will allow us to play, until we are perfect at it like he is. We are all at different levels. The only way to get to were he is is by doing and working at it. Those that are unsaved would be equivalant to the person that just didn't want to practice.

I know this anology is not perfect as it has no elemnets of faith, all I am getting at though is that we become perfect only because we are allowed 2nd and 3rd chances to learn and grow. One cannot expect to become perfect merely by just confessing Jesus. Which I know you mostly agree with this. Or at least think that you agree with it.

That is the reason I think we (LDS) place alot of emphasis on faith and works, as we see it if we are not striving to be like Jesus, and do our part, Jesus isn't just going to do it for us.

Seems to me Jesus did too...

Luke 6

46

[Mordecai]

Seems to me Jesus did too...

Luke 6

46