Vance Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 A NON LDS perspective of salvation by faith ALONE:In thinking of our physical birth to our parents on this earth, everyone realizes that a newborn baby didn
Vance Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 The parable of the Sheep and Goats shows that the goats and sheep were seperated BEFORE their works were even considered. And yet all of the sheep had done good works and all of the goats had not. And this was just a coincidence?Or the works were considered first and then the separation and then the explanation of the separation. Could that have been how it was done?
Echo Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 And from the Biblical view we have "faith without works is dead, being alone". (The only verse in the Bible that has both "faith" and "alone" in it.) And in my story, where did works come into the picture? Here is what I also said in the same post:In the same way that a newborn will be raised and shown the good way in which they should go, so also our Heavenly Father, once we are saved, will then show us the good way in which we should go. This is where the commandments come in. As you can see from my explanation, the commandments aren
Vance Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 As you can see from my explanation, the commandments aren
Echo Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 And yet all of the sheep had done good works and all of the goats had not. And this was just a coincidence?Or the works were considered first and then the separation and then the explanation of the separation. Could that have been how it was done?Faith alone was considered first. He seperated the sheep from the goats based on faith alone. THEN he judged their works.Only those who are saved by faith alone were considered to have done only good works. Those who were athiests or believed in "faith and works" didn't please God. Nothing they did was good, notice that even what they considered to be good was not good, instead, even the "good" they thought they did was counted against them. That's because atheists and "faith and works" people believe they must be good to go to heaven. God considers those kinds of good works, wicked works.
Echo Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 And we are not saved until after we endure to the end (die). So what you are expressing is that we can't obey the commandments until AFTER we are dead. No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying we desire to obey the commandments because we are saved.You need to explain how we are saved before we endure to the end (die) when enduring to the end (dying) is a requirement for salvation.We are saved first through faith alone, we remain in our salvation by keeping that faith that was given to us. That is how we endure. Our works aren't what keep us in the faith. You keep forgeting that true faith is NEVER alone. It is ALWAYS accompanied by WORKS! I havn't forgotten at all. I believe I am saved by faith alone. But faith is never alone because It cannot help but produce good works. Unconditional Love does that to people. Conditional love doesn't produce good works at all, it only produces slaves. Anyone who is not saved by faith alone is a slave. We can repent from all our sins. Your definition and mine are different. But you must overcome all your sins or you are unrepentant. The unrepentant do not inherit the kingdom of God.That is in clear contridiction to the Bible.Matt. 24: 13 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 13: 13 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name
Zakuska Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 We are saved first through faith alone, we remain in our salvation by keeping that faith that was given to us. That is how we endure. Our works aren't what keep us in the faith. Faith alone is death. (James 2 and all)PS. Paul disagrees with you that "Our works aren't what keep us in the faith."2 Cor 13 5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. 7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates. Sounds to me like our works are germane to wether we are "keeping in the faith" or not.
Vance Posted January 2, 2010 Posted January 2, 2010 No, that's not what I am saying. I am saying we desire to obey the commandments because we are saved. For you to continue to ignore the clear and plain words of Jesus isn't going to get you anywhere here.That is in clear contridiction to what JESUS said.Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name
Vance Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 A NON LDS perspective of salvation by faith ALONE: True, we are all certainly free to reject salvation by faith alone and in so doing forfeit heaven. Faith alone was considered first. He seperated the sheep from the goats based on faith alone. . . .Only those who are saved by faith alone were considered to have done only good works. We are saved first through faith alone, we remain in our salvation by keeping that faith that was given to us. . . .I believe I am saved by faith alone. . . . Anyone who is not saved by faith alone is a slave. . . . So what is True and has already been promised to us through faith alone becomes a reality when we die. But faith is never alone . . . Does any one else notice the INCONSISTENCY?No contradiction. Salvation is both "already" and "not yet" . . . Does any one else notice the INCONSISTENCY?Is this a pattern?
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Faith alone is death. (James 2 and all)Like I stated before, we are saved by faith alone but faith is never alone. That is in keeping with James
Vance Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Like I stated before, we are saved by faith alone but faith is never alone. That is in keeping with JamesMore inconsistency.IF it is NEVER alone, why do you keep saying "faith alone"? Do you realize how this makes you look?
Zakuska Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Like I stated before, we are saved by faith alone but faith is never alone. That is in keeping with JamesNo its a redundancy, that smells like false Doctrine. Why use the word at all? Oh thats right because we have to salvage the false teachings of Evangelical Protestantism of the past some how.Grace isn't ALONE either. Grace THROUGH Faith. PS. James' formula for remaining in the faith disagrees with your idea but matches Pauls.Jame 127 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 For you to continue to ignore the clear and plain words of Jesus isn't going to get you anywhere here.That is in clear contridiction to what JESUS said.Matt. 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Does any one else notice the INCONSISTENCY?Does any one else notice the INCONSISTENCY?Is this a pattern?Again, your not comprehending the consistency in what I am saying.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 More inconsistency.IF it is NEVER alone, why do you keep saying "faith alone"? Can you comprehend doing anything freely without it being a requirement?Do you realize how this makes you look? Another sin. Are you going to obey all of the commandments?
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 No its a redundancy, that smells like false Doctrine. Why use the word at all? Oh thats right because we have to salvage the false teachings of Evangelical Protestantism of the past some how.Grace isn't ALONE either. Grace THROUGH Faith. PS. James' formula for remaining in the faith disagrees with your idea but matches Pauls.Jame 127 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. Have you kept yourself unspotted from the world?
Zakuska Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Have you kept yourself unspotted from the world?Perhaps you should sale you computer and go feed the homeless?Put your money where you mouth is Echo.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Perhaps you should sale you computer and go feed the homeless?Put your money where you mouth is Echo.Would you feed the homeless if it wasn't a requirement for salvation?
Zakuska Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 Would you feed the homeless if it wasn't a requirement for salvation?I do feed the homeless. Do you?
Vance Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 I agree that we endure to the end. But do you agree with Jesus, that you have to endure to the end TO BE SAVED?Go back and read what I said. Perhaps you missed it. I read it and addressed it. Some of it was INCONSISTENT DRIVEL! Anyone saved by faith alone will naturally desire to do good works. Nobody is saved by "faith alone". "Faith alone" is not found in the Bible. Faith is never alone even though good works don't save us. But what about you? Still trying to go personal ay. As if that will improve you very weak position.Your good works save you because you don't believe in being saved by faith alone. As you say, FAITH IS NEVER ALONE!Why do you want to turn this into a faith versus works (false dichotomy by your own words) thing? How many good works are required? Well, since I don't believe that it is our works alone that saves us I am not sure how relevant this question is. The better question is do you obey God so He can give you the Holy Ghost? Perfection is required. Says you.Are you perfect? Irrelevant.Have you ever considered the idea that perhaps you might be failing to grasp what Jesus taught? That is an interesting question from someone who places the misunderstood words of the human Paul over the clear and plain words of the divine Christ.If the LDS know better, if they believe they are saved by faith and works, then show me that faith by those works, do you know what the law commands of you? Well, since we belive that we are save by OBEDIENCE to the law and ordinances of the Gospel, I am not sure what you are talking about.In other words we believe we are saved by faith and faithfulness. (And not the lip service, cheap grace approach). I am not inconsistent, you just aren't comprehending what I am saying. Well, when you abuse the English language and logic the way you do, confusion is a natural result.You believe you are saved by faith and works, There you go again, trying to tell us what we believe.edited to add respect.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 I do feed the homeless. Do you?I do. Would you feed the homeless if it wasn't a requirement for salvation?
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 But do you agree with Jesus, that you have to endure to the end TO BE SAVED?I read it and addressed it. Some of it was INCONSISTENT DRIVEL! SinNobody is saved by "faith alone". "Faith alone" is not found in the Bible. sinStill trying to go personal ay. As if that will improve you very weak position. sin. Because you are the one making it personal!Well, since I don't believe that it is our works alone that saves us I am not sure how relevant this question is. The better question is do you obey God so He can give you the Holy Ghost? No, I don't obey God so he can give me the Holy Ghost. God has already given me the Holy Ghost so that I can obey God. That is an interesting question from someone who places the misunderstood words of the human Paul over the clear and plain words of the divine Christ. That's an interesting answer from someone who places the word of one human man Joseph Smith over the devine Jesus and Paul whom the devine Jesus himself appointed. Well, since we belive that we are save by OBEDIENCE to the law and ordinances of the Gospel, I am not sure what you are talking about.In other words we believe we are saved by faith and faithfulness. (And not the lip service, cheap grace approach). Grace is free but it didn't come cheap, It cost God his life on the cross. God died! You call that cheap grace? Cheap grace is your belief, it is rejecting the perfection he gave you on the cross and instead being your own savior who will eventually pay him back. Well, when you abuse the English language and logic the way you do, confusion is a natural result. sinThere you go again, trying to tell us what we believe. Many LDS here have told me what I believe and got it wrong. Take the plank out. edited to add respect. sinNot too put you down, but If you believe in faithfulness and not lip service, why is it that you can't stop sinning? Your lips reveal lip service here rather than faithfulness. My point? You can't live what you believe. It's very obvious to me in just the short time I have spoken with you. You sin and sin and sin... And until you see the contradiction between what you believe and what you do, I can't help you. Those who don't live what they believe are apostates. If you believe you are saved by obedience to all of the commandments, then you should be obedient to all of the commandments, do that now, not tommorow, otherwise your just doing lip service.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 I do. Would you feed the homeless if it wasn't a requirement for salvation?So you acknowldge that it is required, per the sheep and the goats? I do it because I love my fellow man, because the love of Christ is in me. What about you?
Tanyan Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 echo, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT here. I have not had the time to read through all of yours/others posts in this thread along with yours/others comments in the other thread but I would like to share [ I am LDS - Former Methodist as an infant, Fundamentalist-Independant Baptist as a young teenager, LDS for the past 34 = years. I have friends that are Pastors/Ministers/Lay members of Roman Catholic Orthodoxy, Coptic Egyptian Catholic Orthodoxy, Greek Orthodoxy, Protestant, Reformed, Restorationalist, in which I have attended Church services, Bible Studies, and other activities with]. I am no Scholar/Theologian but a Lay member of my Church/Faith. I as an LDS Believe in Salvation by Grace Alone Through Faith Alone [ With the True Understanding of that Salvation Formula as understood in its's True Anchient Middle Eastern understanding of the Hearts and Minds of those that were in Tune with the Holy Ghost and penned scripture and those that heard or read them]. There are different ways of looking at this Faith/Works issue, let me share some please - http://www.thebible....ceAlone-dm.html In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.
Echo Posted January 3, 2010 Posted January 3, 2010 So you acknowldge that it is required, per the sheep and the goats? No. It is not required. Sheep do good works because they "want" to, Goats think they "have" to because it is a requirement and when they find themselves on the left hand of Jesus, they are confused and plead: but when did I not serve you?!The notable thing in this parable is that the goats thought they did good works just like the Sheep. The Sheep weren't keeping track (When did I do these things?) the goats were keeping track. (when did I not do these things?) The sheep didn't spend their lives focused on works the goats did. The sheep weren't thinking about being worthy (when did I do these things?) the goats focused on being worthy (when did I not do these things?!)I do it because I love my fellow man, because the love of Christ is in me. What about you? Or do you do it to gain eternal life, to become a God?
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