Christianity and works

[Echo]

echo, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT here. I have not had the time to read through all of yours/others posts in this thread along with yours/others comments in the other thread but I would like to share [ I am LDS - Former Methodist as an infant, Fundamentalist-Independant Baptist as a young teenager, LDS for the past 34 = years. I have friends that are Pastors/Ministers/Lay members of Roman Catholic Orthodoxy, Coptic Egyptian Catholic Orthodoxy, Greek Orthodoxy, Protestant, Reformed, Restorationalist, in which I have attended Church services, Bible Studies, and other activities with]. I am no Scholar/Theologian but a Lay member of my Church/Faith.

I as an LDS Believe in Salvation by Grace Alone Through Faith Alone [ With the True Understanding of that Salvation Formula as understood in its's True Anchient Middle Eastern understanding of the Hearts and Minds of those that were in Tune with the Holy Ghost and penned scripture and those that heard or read them]. There are different ways of looking at this Faith/Works issue, let me share some please - http://www.thebible....ceAlone-dm.html

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

I am printing up your link, will get back to you when I have read it.

Thanks

[Tanyan]

I am printing up your link, will get back to you when I have read it.

Thanks

Echo, you are welcome, I have much stored in my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archives. May Grace Be with You. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Obiwan]

I would really like seriously honestly to answer the question from the first page about the Parable of the Sheep's and the Goats.....

You either believe in that or you don't.... And if you believe it and we believe it (which we do), then the rest is just religion bashing word game gobaldy goop!

We believe the same, get over yourselves!!!

[Obiwan]

No. It is not required. Sheep do good works because they "want" to, Goats think they "have" to because it is a requirement and when they find themselves on the left hand of Jesus, they are confused and plead: but when did I not serve you?!

The notable thing in this parable is that the goats thought they did good works just like the Sheep. The Sheep weren't keeping track (When did I do these things?) the goats were keeping track. (when did I not do these things?) The sheep didn't spend their lives focused on works the goats did. The sheep weren't thinking about being worthy (when did I do these things?) the goats focused on being worthy (when did I not do these things?!)

Or do you do it to gain eternal life, to become a God?

YOu know.... I'm reading this. And I've seen this "pattern" for many years from Christians and anti-mormons.

Are you people REALLY that arrogant???

Do you REALLY think that like anyone else on the planet, that there aren't mormons who love God, who love serving their fellow man, and do it BECAUSE they love God and their fellow man, not simply because "they have too"????

I mean.... You're trying to say mormons are like "children".... That we "only do good works because we are told to, and we have to to become Gods". You people are something!

So let me educate you..... Mormons are CHRISTIAN!!! We have the "change of heart" from the old man of sin, to a new man of hope in Christ, just like ANY OTHER CHRISTIAN!!!

GET IT YET??????

So this idea that you are trying to say our "works" are only compelled like children, rather than also in and through the grace and love of God and Christ, is simply offensive and absolutely ignorant. Repent and get your own life staying away from mormonism, cause you're only serving the devil in your judgements of us per Christ's own words in Mark/Luke 9 of his "other children" NOT WITH YOU!!!

[Zakuska]

No. It is not required. Sheep do good works because they "want" to, Goats think they "have" to because it is a requirement and when they find themselves on the left hand of Jesus, they are confused and plead: but when did I not serve you?!

The notable thing in this parable is that the goats thought they did good works just like the Sheep. The Sheep weren't keeping track (When did I do these things?) the goats were keeping track. (when did I not do these things?) The sheep didn't spend their lives focused on works the goats did. The sheep weren't thinking about being worthy (when did I do these things?) the goats focused on being worthy (when did I not do these things?!)

Or do you do it to gain eternal life, to become a God?

Sounds to me like you are preaching to the Chior...

Philip 3

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

You truley beleive Paul was a Goat? Surely he was keeping track?! And for the express purpose of Attaining Eternal life!

PS. In trying to salvage your heresy "faith alone" doctrine you missed the entire point of the parable. The Goats SAID they did all these mighty works, but they really didn't. The sheep on the other hand DID just the opposite. They actually DID mighty works, and not just said that they did.

[Echo]

Echo, you are welcome, I have much stored in my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archives. May Grace Be with You. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

I am writing up a response to your essay link. It could take me awhile since there is so much territory covered in that short essay and since my family and I are packing up to head out on a vacation this week. Just a bit of a heads-up, I won't have access to a computer while on vacation so I won't be posting during that time.

[Echo]

Sounds to me like you are preaching to the Chior...

PS. In trying to salvage your heresy "faith alone" doctrine you missed the entire point of the parable. The Goats SAID they did all these mighty works, but they really didn't. The sheep on the other hand DID just the opposite. They actually DID mighty works, and not just said that they did.

The goats actually thought and believed they did good works but their good works weren't considered good works in the eyes of God. But this will come up again in my response to Tanyan, wait for it. I havn't time to answer everyone's posts and questions. The LDS posts come in 3 or 4 or more at a time while I use that same amount of time to respond to one post.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

No. It is not required. Sheep do good works because they "want" to, Goats think they "have" to because it is a requirement and when they find themselves on the left hand of Jesus, they are confused and plead: but when did I not serve you?!

The notable thing in this parable is that the goats thought they did good works just like the Sheep. The Sheep weren't keeping track (When did I do these things?) the goats were keeping track. (when did I not do these things?) The sheep didn't spend their lives focused on works the goats did. The sheep weren't thinking about being worthy (when did I do these things?) the goats focused on being worthy (when did I not do these things?!)

Or do you do it to gain eternal life, to become a God?

Hmmm I missed that part in the parable were the goats asked the master "I do good works because I have too" And Jesus sent them away because of that. I think you are making things up.

You missed it, it is that the Sheep did do good works and the goats did them not. It has nothing what soever to do with them thinking they duid them or not. Nice try.

[clairc829]

Hmmm I missed that part in the parable were the goats asked the master "I do good works because I have too" And Jesus sent them away because of that. I think you are making things up.

And he/she has told us we add things to the scriptures.

And when we tell him we do things out of love he doesn't believe us but tells us we do things for other reasons. I don't think you can read minds when someone tells you why he does things why don't you believe him?

When I was in Grad school the other students often told me you can't do this or that usually related to word of wisdom issues, my response was always I can do whatever I want to do. I can't chose the consequences for what I do however.

I don't think there is much hope for coming to an understanding with echo we do not seem to speak the same language.

my 2 cents worth.

[seriously honestly]

I would really like seriously honestly to answer the question from the first page about the Parable of the Sheep's and the Goats.....

If you read the OP here would know what I believe regarding the sheep and the goats, but for your sake I'll post an answer over their as well.

You either believe in that or you don't.... And if you believe it and we believe it (which we do), then the rest is just religion bashing word game gobaldy goop!

what are you even talking about??

We believe the same, get over yourselves!!!

drop the attitude.

[Tanyan]

I am writing up a response to your essay link. It could take me awhile since there is so much territory covered in that short essay and since my family and I are packing up to head out on a vacation this week. Just a bit of a heads-up, I won't have access to a computer while on vacation so I won't be posting during that time.

Thank you for the heads up Echo, I do have several other essay links in my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archive to share with you [ and others on this thread ] when you return. Perhaps you could also send your response to the link I provided so as they have a copy as well. May you and your family have a blessed trip.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Zakuska]

The goats actually thought and believed they did good works but their good works weren't considered good works in the eyes of God.]

Aaa... you'd better read the Parable again, The Goats claimed they did the works, However God knew they didn't.

Matt 25

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

The sheep on the other hand DID the works.

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The only Difference between the sheep and Goats is what each group DID.

[jkfrost]

This topic has always been a "chicken and egg" argument to me. But understand that we as Mo's know that we are saved by grace. Without the grace of God, nothing we do would matter. Our critics loved to quote the BoM scripture "after all we can do", but there is also this

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Aaa... you'd better read the Parable again, The Goats claimed they did the works, However God knew they didn't.

Matt 25

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

The sheep on the other hand DID the works.

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The only Difference between the sheep and Goats is what each group DID.

Bingo, I have to wonder why Echo could not fulfill my request. It begs several questions.

The sheep did somethings that the goats didn't do, and there is no mention of beleif or "just having faith" in those parables. It is evident that looking at all of ths scriptures and not just picking and choosing we can walk away with an understanding that God requires faith and works that makes our faith alive, then we quilifiy for salvation.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Or do you do it to gain eternal life, to become a God?

Oh so I am a liar now? I give you an answer and then you pretend to read my mind. My original responces stands. Deal with it.

[Echo]

Oh so I am a liar now? I give you an answer and then you pretend to read my mind. My original responces stands. Deal with it.

It is an LDS belief. I was just asking a question trying to understand. I never said you were a liar. Please don't put words in my mouth I didn't say nor make false assumptions about what I am doing. That would be a sin.

[Vance]

The goats actually thought and believed they did good works but their good works weren't considered good works in the eyes of God. But this will come up again in my response to Tanyan, wait for it. I havn't time to answer everyone's posts and questions. The LDS posts come in 3 or 4 or more at a time while I use that same amount of time to respond to one post.

Not really!

The goats made excuses for not having done any good works. "When saw we" blah blah blah. Just excuses.

And what did the Lord say to them?

"Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

They didn't do it to the Lord or any body else. They didn't do it period.

[Echo]

Not really!

The goats made excuses for not having done any good works. "When saw we" blah blah blah. Just excuses.

And what did the Lord say to them?

"Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

They didn't do it to the Lord or any body else. They didn't do it period.

The goats did exactly what they claimed they did, the claim was "when did we not do these things"? In other words: "We did these things, we did them alot, so what's the deal here, why are they not good works, why aren't you noticing them, why do you say we didn't do these things?"... the problem is that all these things that they did do, feed the hungry, give money to the poor etc. wasn't motivated with a God pleasing motivation. These goats judged their works based on the outward good they did, however, God doesn't look at the outward good any of us does, he looks at what is in the heart and the motivation therein.

Still waiting for your reply to my CFR in the other thread.

[Vance]

The goats did exactly what they claimed they did, the claim was "when did we not do these things"? In other words: "We did these things, we did them alot, so what's the deal here, why are they not good works, why aren't you noticing them, why do you say we didn't do these things?"... the problem is that all these things that they did do, feed the hungry, give money to the poor etc. wasn't motivated with a God pleasing motivation. These goats judged their works based on the outward good they did, however, God doesn't look at the outward good any of us does, he looks at what is in the heart and the motivation therein.

Still waiting for your reply to my CFR in the other thread.

Not really!

They said "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?"

So it is clear that they had NEVER ministered to the Lord, and that their excuse was that they hadn't don't it because they hadn't seen the Lord in need.

This of course was just an EXCUSE for not doing any good works, which is OBVIOUS from the Lords response to their excuse.

"Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

There you have it, they "DID IT NOT"!!! NOT to the Lord and NOT to anyone else!

They did NOT do ANY good works!!

Their reward for this inaction? "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment".

[Zakuska]

The goats did exactly what they claimed they did, the claim was "when did we not do these things"? In other words: "We did these things, we did them alot, so what's the deal here, why are they not good works, why aren't you noticing them, why do you say we didn't do these things?"... the problem is that all these things that they did do, feed the hungry, give money to the poor etc. wasn't motivated with a God pleasing motivation. These goats judged their works based on the outward good they did, however, God doesn't look at the outward good any of us does, he looks at what is in the heart and the motivation therein.

Still waiting for your reply to my CFR in the other thread.

In the world of contrary-vill perhaps. God said they didn't do anything, they said they never saw the Lord in need. They were so blind they didn't even recognize the Lord in need standing right before them.

[Vance]

Echo,

I just don't understand how you could confuse " 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not."

AND

"Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me".

with "We did these things, we did them alot, so what's the deal here".

I think your interpretation is VERY UNREASONABLE!!!!!

[Echo]

Vance, You didn't answer my question.

[Vance]

Vance, You didn't answer my question.

Which one?

[Echo]

Which one?

The one in the other thread, I brought that up at the bottom of post #118 of this thread.

You said: " So it is clear that they never ministered to the Lord, and that their excuse was that they hadn

[Vance]

The one in the other thread, I brought that up at the bottom of post #118 of this thread.

Gee, that helps a lot. Is just repeating the question here a problem for you?

You said: " So it is clear that they never ministered to the Lord, and that their excuse was that they hadn