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Christianity and works


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From this we can see that the law was put in place for a purpose. That purpose being fulfilled, believers are no longer required to participate in the law in order to be made right with God. I want to keep one thing very clear though; ; Just because we don

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Regarding works; I don't believe they are necessary for salvation. Rather, I believe that accepting Jesus is all that is required (not surprising). If you accepted Jesus (sincerely accepted Him), walked outside and silped, fell, died, I do believe that you would be saved in heaven.

Well, if you want to use the exception to the rule, then we are in agreement. We also believe that if one does not ever get the opportunity to do anything with their faith, such as your example, then that person can be saved/exalted. However, if one is above the age of 8, baptism will have to be performed on their behalf. Infants and children who die have no need of baptism, and it would not be performed on their behalf.
However, until the moment comes when Christ calls you home, I believe there are responsiblities that we have that we shouldn't turn from; and in that way I do believe that we should participate in works. Now as far as what those works are in the Christian faith and why we should perform them--well it's easier to start off by saying what they are not; they are not something we do for our benefit to help ourselves or give us a personal spiritual advantage, and not something we do to make ourselves right with God. In Christianity there is nothing we can do that would aid us in receiving a better placement in heaven (example, Celestial over Terrestrial). Instead, what works are is a way to display our faith outwardly to others, allowing them so see the reality of the gospel. As Christians, made new by God's grace, we are encouraged to display our faith to others through our works (actions or deeds). James 2: 14-18 says (and I know you've heard this passage a million times but here it is once again):

(14)"What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don

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Very good OP about the LDS view of good works.

One thing about this "good works" thing that bugs me is that: Others do not want to realise our viewpoint, they push others viewpoints to us. They completely close their ears for our answers. Why, because all they see are these LDS helpers or the exes that complain that it was terrible, how works were required...they know they been there

Some LDS after beeing babtized get a wish to be good like those they see around them. Many around them are doing these "good works" from their heart and they see how happy it makes them... they too want to try... in other words they are practicing to do "good works". Most of LDS already when not LDS have been doing "good works" from their heart.

So why not? Why could not one try to be excamples, why not try to do even more? Ok I know our Father sees in secresy all good work done in secresy... but then maybe these who do it openly do ALSO "good works" in secresy, maybe all this LDS "good work stuff" you think is trying to be an excample to infect the world, not to be saved by it! After all it is a better world when everyone is nice thowards one an other and helps one an other!

I dont believe any of my "good works" will save me, only Christ can... but sill I wish there was a way to do good here, where I live too. But I live in a country, where there is no need of anything... not material anyway... I think this talk about LDS good work thing has come up just to make us feel bad about doing good so it would hinder us from helping people as much as we want to.

I want to add that we often have a different view of it to be "saved". For us the best of Christians will get exctly, what they want, what they believe in. Like Lutherans want to be with Jesus their saviour as their highest leader for ever and I am sure this WILL be garanted to the best of them anyway.... maybe even to those who at their death moment shout aloud ... I believe, I believe.... so what is the hassel?

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I'll keep this short.

There are reasons this thread is being posted here and not there.

I am very interested in knowing those reasons. Care to elaborate?

Regarding works; I don't believe they are necessary for salvation.

What do you mean by "works"? Do you mean the works of the law of Moses that Paul is usually referring to, or something else?

Rather, I believe that accepting Jesus is all that is required (not surprising).

This a very good summary of the LDS theology.

I would ask this question, "Can you really accept Jesus without believing and doing all that He taught?

If you accepted Jesus (sincerely accepted Him), walked outside and silped, fell, died, I do believe that you would be saved in heaven.

Agreed.

Excellent OP!!

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This sums up the LDS position on works and salvation:

(Moroni 10:32-33) "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."
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I am very interested in knowing those reasons. Care to elaborate?

1. The conversation was originally between myself and OC. I was going to start a new thread there so to avoid hijacking the thread we were on, but OC was suspended before I had the chance. He asked if I wouldn't mind starting the thread here; and I don't mind because...

2. There is a prevailing negitive attitude over there that I can no longer deal with.

3. It started to seem like a lot of the LDS posters there were expected to remain silent, just agree, or be suspended, and it's really hard to have a genuine conversation/debate with someone when they ended being suspended all the time.

4. I know everyone has a different style of witnessing to others, but I personally believe that if you are going to witness to someone, you ought to be genuine about it, caring, loving, Christ like really, and it just feels like there is an agenda over there at the moment that has nothing to do with Chirst. This whole, "I'm going to hold you face down in the mud and tell you that you're stupid for believing what you do but if you would only leave mormonisim and accept Jesus then I would accept you as my brothr/sister in Christ" style of witnessing that I feel is going on over there is completely counterproductive and has nothing to do with Chirst and is doing more damage than good and sometimes I feel like yelling at everybody to just leave the mormons alone for 10 seconds because who in their right mind would want to listen to someone who is tearing into them instead of teaching??? Who???? It hurts me, and I'm not even LDS anymore but it's kind of like watching someone pick on one of your family members.

What do you mean by "works"? Do you mean the works of the law of Moses that Paul is usually referring to, or something else?

both. Originally we were talking about works in the context of one working to earning their exaltation. I think there is a lot of confusion, or a breakdown in communitcation, when it comes to works or grace for salvation, and I should have been more specific. I understand that no one can earn their salvation (even in the LDS theology), but the converstation stemed from whether or not someone could earn their exaltation, and what just what are works and/or the commandments of God considered to be.

I would ask this question, "Can you really accept Jesus without believing and doing all that He taught?

No. But you and I differ on what we believe He taught, or (again) what are the commandments of God and what is considered "work". ie, in Mormonism, temple marriage and the word of wisdom are concidered commandments of God, but not in mainstream christianity. So I would say that you can accept Jesus, beliving all that He taught, and yet not be concerned about drinking a glass of wine with dinner, where as you might say that truely accepting Jesus would mean that you would avoid alcohlic beverages.

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1. The conversation was originally between myself and <SNIP>

Thank you. I suspected as much but I wanted to know for sure.

both. Originally we were talking about works in the context of one working to earning their exaltation. I think there is a lot of confusion, or a breakdown in communitcation, when it comes to works or grace for salvation, and I should have been more specific. I understand that no one can earn their salvation (even in the LDS theology), but the converstation stemed from whether or not someone could earn their exaltation, and what just what are works and/or the commandments of God considered to be.

Just a point of clarification. Exaltation = Eternal life.

In LDS theology Eternal life is a gift.

D&C 14:7 And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God.

No. But you and I differ on what we believe He taught, or (again) what are the commandments of God and what is considered "work". ie, in Mormonism, temple marriage and the word of wisdom are concidered commandments of God, but not in mainstream christianity. So I would say that you can accept Jesus, beliving all that He taught, and yet not be concerned about drinking a glass of wine with dinner, where as you might say that truely accepting Jesus would mean that you would avoid alcohlic beverages.

OK!

Thanks for your response

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No. But you and I differ on what we believe He taught, or (again) what are the commandments of God and what is considered "work". ie, in Mormonism, temple marriage and the word of wisdom are concidered commandments of God, but not in mainstream christianity. So I would say that you can accept Jesus, beliving all that He taught, and yet not be concerned about drinking a glass of wine with dinner, where as you might say that truely accepting Jesus would mean that you would avoid alcohlic beverages.

IT would seem that you and I hold of the same ideals. I do note that we differ on what is and is not commanded. I can respect that. I just need you to remind my ADHD brain what the main issue is?

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IT would seem that you and I hold of the same ideals. I do note that we differ on what is and is not commanded. I can respect that. I just need you to remind my ADHD brain what the main issue is?

To discuss what it believed to be the commandments of God, how they relate to works, and how works relate (or don't relate) to salvation/exaltation. The WoW could be considered to be works that are preformed to the purpose of remaining in good standing with the commandments of God and receiving exaltaion, for example.

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To be perfectly frank, I still cannot wrap my head around this issue nor comprehend the mountain of exhausting circular sparring it generates between evangelicals and mormons.

If there is a God, and this life is some sort of a test, then works, how we treat our fellow human beings, are without question the most important, indeed the only, criteria God can use to measure our lives. Spiritual belief and faith vary so widely they are utterly useless in basing anything upon - yet incredibly there are those who want to wager humankind's eternal destiny upon it?

Good heavens. Isn't it absolutely self-evident that our actions are immeasurably more important than whatever notions we have about a being whose nature, motivation and very existence are impossible to discern or agree upon?

I just don't get it my friends.

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To be perfectly frank, I still cannot wrap my head around this issue nor comprehend the mountain of exhausting circular sparring it generates between evangelicals and mormons.

If there is a God, and this life is some sort of a test, then works, how we treat our fellow human beings, are without question the most important, indeed the only, criteria God can use to measure our lives. Spiritual belief and faith vary so widely they are utterly useless in basing anything upon - yet incredibly there are those who want to wager humankind's eternal destiny upon it?

Good heavens. Isn't it absolutely self-evident that our actions are immeasurably more important than whatever notions we have about a being whose nature, motivation and very existence are impossible to discern or agree upon?

I just don't get it my friends.

Or in other words,

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

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To discuss what it believed to be the commandments of God, how they relate to works, and how works relate (or don't relate) to salvation/exaltation. The WoW could be considered to be works that are preformed to the purpose of remaining in good standing with the commandments of God and receiving exaltaion, for example.

So you want to compare lists of commandments?

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Or in other words,

1 Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Also...

Matthew 7: 21

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

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So you want to compare lists of commandments?

well i think you and I pretty much know what the LDS church and mainstream christianity consider God's commanments to be, so I guess what I really want to discuss is how and why those works either affect, or don't affect, salvation/exaltation. Like choosing not to marry in the temple has an affect on your exaltation in LDS theology and can be viewed as something done in order to "earn" exaltation. (Im I explaining any better, or just making it more confusing?)

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seriously honestly, Tanyan -LDS JEDI KNIGHT here, thank you for your inquiry. I am a convert to THE LORD OF LIFE'S Church - The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints [i am a Former Methodist, Fundamentalist Independant Baptist]. I have friends that are Roman Catholic Orthodox, Coptic Egyptian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Protestant, Reformed Protestant, and have attended there Church services and talked with those that worship in those Christian denominations regularly.

For me being LDS I sincerly Believe in Salvation by Grace [charis] alone THROUGH Faith [pistis] alone. Grace alone is the spiritual cleansing agent wherby one is saved/exalted whereever there destination is in the Heavenly realm. The imperitive way to activate, access,make alive Jesus Christs Atoning Blood sacrifice for us is by Faith which is a gift given to us by God and must be put into action by us in Rightiousness to make Jesus Christs Blood sacrifice for us work on our behalf. Faith in and of itself is a work and must be worked for it to be effective - 1Thess 1:3. Salvation maintenence is a manditory requirement to stay in that Covenant of Jesus Christs Blood sacrifice for us [No once saved always saved ]. We participate in our salvation Quest/Journey by Saying Thank you to God The Father, Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost by our showing we want to "Be" and "Stay saved, or in other words walking in the light so as the Blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin 1 John 1:7.

I suggest to you to research the anchient meanings of Grace [charis] and Faith [pistis] and how those words were used by the Saints in that time period and how they lived there lives accordingly in there Hearts and Minds .

Thank you for your time. In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan - LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

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well i think you and I pretty much know what the LDS church and mainstream christianity consider God's commanments to be, so I guess what I really want to discuss is how and why those works either affect, or don't affect, salvation/exaltation. Like choosing not to marry in the temple has an affect on your exaltation in LDS theology and can be viewed as something done in order to "earn" exaltation. (Im I explaining any better, or just making it more confusing?)

I think I get it. I don't know that we know all of the why's. I can see the good in teh WoW and tithing. I can see the good in doing good to your neighbor, and clothing the naked. Temple sealings is not something that I understand all of the in's and out's. How ever temple attendance (in general) I see and could talk more about. Esp the parts about the endowment and baptisms for the dead. I could explain the why's of those. I think most of the stuff is easy or simple to figure out why we are commanded to do it. A few of the things I know I can't explain the why. Lets take one at a time.

What is one thing that is LDS that you would like to discuss?

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well i think you and I pretty much know what the LDS church and mainstream christianity consider God's commanments to be, so I guess what I really want to discuss is how and why those works either affect, or don't affect, salvation/exaltation. Like choosing not to marry in the temple has an affect on your exaltation in LDS theology and can be viewed as something done in order to "earn" exaltation. (Im I explaining any better, or just making it more confusing?)

Inquiry, can you show anywhere in the BofM or The D+C wheras we "earn"salvation ?. Thank You.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan- LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

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We cannot "earn" our salvation (or exaltation). It simply is beyond our ability to do so. No matter what we do in this life, on our own, we will NEVER be able to rise from the grave and ascend into heaven.

So then, we could spend our entire lives, doing everything possible to please and serve God, and we would still be "unprofitable" servants.

That is just the way it is.

God has promised that if we are obedient to Him, He will give us eternal life. So then, if we do what He says, then because of His promise, He is bound, He has to give us the gift of eternal life. Otherwise, He becomes a liar.

So, one way to look at it is that, if we are obedient then we "earn" the promise of eternal life.

1 Jn. 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

(The entire chapter is beneficial in understanding the context.)

Also see

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Edited to add: Earning the "promise of eternal life" isn't the same as earning eternal life. I hope that is clear.

I think that because the promise is so sure, it is easy for people to confuse the two or speak as though they are they are the same. But technically speaking, they are not the same.

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Inquiry, can you show anywhere in the BofM or The D+C wheras we "earn"salvation ?. Thank You.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan- LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

No not salvation. I already pointed out you can't earn salvation. I was refering to things that would aid in one earning/obtaing exaltation. If one wants exaltation, and not one of the lesser kingdoms or just a general salvation, then there are things that an individual must do, correct?

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No not salvation. I already pointed out you can't earn salvation. I was refering to things that would aid in one earning/obtaing exaltation. If one wants exaltation, and not one of the lesser kingdoms or just a general salvation, then there are things that an individual must do, correct?

SH, my fellow posters seem to be on the attack and seem to not understand what the purpose of this thread is. Either that or I have completly mis-understood your responce to me.

You must remember that most of the times other Christian groups try to say that we can work our way to hevean. I don't think that is a position that you think we hold.

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We cannot "earn" our salvation (or exaltation). It simply is beyond our ability to do so. No matter what we do in this life, on our own, we will NEVER be able to rise from the grave and ascend into heaven.

So then, we could spend our entire lives, doing everything possible to please and serve God, and we would still be "unprofitable" servants.

That is just the way it is.

God has promised that if we are obedient to Him, He will give us eternal life. So then, if we do what He says, then because of His promise, He is bound, He has to give us the gift of eternal life. Otherwise, He becomes a liar.

So, one way to look at it is that, if we are obedient then we "earn" the promise of eternal life.

1 Jn. 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

(The entire chapter is beneficial in understanding the context.)

Also see

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Edited to add: Earning the "promise of eternal life" isn't the same as earning eternal life. I hope that is clear.

I think that because the promise is so sure, it is easy for people to confuse the two or speak as though they are they are the same. But technically speaking, they are not the same.

seriously honestly,

I meant to ask if you agreed with this assessment.

Do you?

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