Christianity and works

[Echo]

Are-you-serious?

1. It is not, by any means, "impossible"--I have had many respectful debates before with LDS members.

You have miunderstood. Allow me to explain. I was refering to the few pharisees posting in this thread here, not all LDS people. It is clear that you yourself have had some negative interaction with some other Mormons or you wouldn't have wrote what you did on the first page.

2. What the hell do you mean "impossible for them"??? Do you thinkg they are they some kind of lower species incapable of of such? That respect is something that only everyone else has??

It is impossible for folks like Vance, Zakuska, Mola sam ruda sam etc. They are the ones who think people are some kind of lower species as is evidenced by their disrespectful, pridefilled,overbearing,abusive, mocking responses towards others who disagree with them. That is my whole point. They are the unrepentant ones who look down their Oh so holy noses at others just because others disagree with them. They are the ones that make all religion repulsive.

They will treat you with love and respect as long as you don't disagree with them. My advice to you would be to read your bible and find out what God teaches you there. Then all your questions will be answered. You can even disagree with God and he won't verbally abuse you for it, he will take you gently by the hand and teach you everything you want to know so that you won't be decieved by pharisees. Their kindness is a deceptive trap.

Have a good day

May God bless you beyond your wildest imagination as you study his word alone.

[seriously honestly]

Anyway. Back to the subject...

A parable perhaps more related to the OP would be that of the marriage of the king's son, found in Matthew 22:2-14.

To summerize: the king's son is getting married, so the king sends word to all the invited guests. They all refuse to come. So the king sends out his servants to gather up anyone they can find. But when the king sees all the guests, he notices one of them doesn't have on a wedding garment and tosses him out.

To the LDS mind, this supports the view that at some point some type of works is necessary. The guests represent those who accept God's invitation (show faith), while the man without the wedding garment represents those who think that nothing else (such as baptism) is needed.

yes--we may not agree 100% of the time what those works are, but I do agree important, and they will be a determining factor. Generally when I say 'works' I'm refering to our service to other that display our faith (expecet in the OP when I meant it to refer to those things I don't believe are necessary, ie temple marriage, WoW, etc) and I do think there are many examples/parables in the Bible that supports this--the section you mentioned being one of them.

[SilverKnight]

That is my whole point. They are the unrepentant ones who look down their Oh so holy noses at others just because others disagree with them. They are the ones that make all religion repulsive.

They will treat you with love and respect as long as you don't disagree with them. My advice to you would be to read your bible and find out what God teaches you there. Then all your questions will be answered. You can even disagree with God and he won't verbally abuse you for it, he will take you gently by the hand and teach you everything you want to know so that you won't be decieved by pharisees. Thier kindness is a trap.

Have a good day

May God bless you beyond your wildest imagination as you study his word alone.

I could not have scripted this any better.

[seriously honestly]

You have miunderstood. I was refering to the few pharisees posting in this thread here, not all LDS people. It is clear that you yourself have had some negative interaction with some other Mormons or you wouldn't have wrote what you did in your first post.

Where did you get that idea from? As I said before, I posted my OP here becuase I was tired of the negitive attitude coming from "Christians" elsewhere and because my respectful debates with LDS had to be continually put on hold.

It is impossible for folks like Vance, Zakuska, Mola sam ruda sam etc. They are the ones who think people are some kind of lower species as is evidenced by their disrespectful, pridefilled,overbearing,abusive, mocking responses towards others who disagree with them. That is my whole point. They are the unrepentant ones who look down their Oh so holy noses at others just because others disagree with them. They are the ones that make all religion repulsive.

Have a good day.

Again, what are you talking about? I disagree with their doctrine and yet I have had no such experience with them. It's been just the opposite.

[Tanyan]

All you need is Love [ John Lennon and John The Apostle ] !. From My LDS JEDI KNIGHT Archives concerning the proper role on how to Believe in Christ. http://www.14lds.com/believe2.htm

The Atonement, It Is The Central Doctrine.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Echo]

Where did you get that idea from? As I said before, I posted my OP here becuase I was tired of the negitive attitude coming from "Christians" elsewhere and because my respectful debates with LDS had to be continually put on hold.

Again, what are you talking about? I disagree with their doctrine and yet I have had no such experience with them. It's been just the opposite.

Just be careful. If you disagree with these folks, you will pay the price and be assaulted by them. Go with your conscience no matter what the cost. Even if it means they will crucify you for it. Don't let the wicked works of men sway you into hardening your conscience just to fit in with them. Lets God's word teach you and change the way you think rather than letting anyone's thinking change what scripture teaches.

I love the LDS people but this is a religion heading down the road to outer darkness (Hell) because it contradicts what the bible teaches. Be careful! Don't trust them, don't even trust me, trust God and his word alone as it is written in the bible! Trusting in any man will prove to be a trap and snare. Get into the Bible alone with all your questions and answers. Psalm 118:8 "It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man."

I am off on holidays now...

Take care....God be with you.

[Tanyan]

As I Have Loved You Love one another, by this shall men know if ye are my Disciples if ye have Love one to another.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Vance]

I love the LDS people but this is a religion heading down the road to outer darkness (Hell) because it contrdicts what the bible teaches.

More "truth" and "love".

I think you are just sore over the sheep (good works) and goat (no good works) thing.

Edited to add an Echo of respect.

But as I said here;

I am extremely glad you have been posting here. I am afraid that if you realized how much you strengthen the LDS individual with your posts you wouldn't even be here.

I have thoroughly enjoyed "sparring" with you so to speak. I appreciate your willingness to call "sin" for some statements that expose the strength of you positions.

I appreciate the circular mental gymnastics that we experience when in conversation with you. It, when used properly can increase our patience, thus helping us to become more godly.

I hope that you have a good and enjoyable vacation and that you return safely.

I also hope that you can find the time to stop by on occasion. Your opposition does more good than you can possibly know.

Edited to add two Echos of respect.

[SilverKnight]

I love the LDS people but this is a religion heading down the road to outer darkness (Hell) because it contradicts what the bible teaches. Be careful! Don't trust them

Though you fail to realize it, the more you spout ignorant dogma like this, the more it spotlights everything backward, broken and inhuman about your worldview.

Your Torquemadan dogmatism does more to deconvert young people away from evangelicalism than any amount of mormon proselyting ever could.

[Echo]

Though you fail to realize it, the more you spout ignorant dogma like this, the more it spotlights everything backward, broken and inhuman about your worldview.

Your Torquemadan dogmatism does more to deconvert young people away from evangelicalism than any amount of mormon proselyting ever could.

What I "spout" is the truth written in scripture. You are contending against God's own "ignorant dogma" as you call it.

[Vance]

You are contending against God's own "ignorant dogma" as you call it.

You mean like,

He seperated the sheep from the goats based on faith alone.

And,

Only those who are saved by faith alone were considered to have done only good works.

And,

The goats actually thought and believed they did good works but their good works weren't considered good works in the eyes of God.

for example?

Edited to add an Echo of respect.

[SilverKnight]

What I "spout" is the truth written in scripture.

Nope. What you "spout" preconditioned prejudice against those who don't share your narrow worldview. What you spout is the well-rehearsed cultural lingo of christian fundamentalists. What you spout is primitive nonsense that insults the ecumenism of sincere evangelicals like Seriously Honestly.

You are contending against God's own "ignorant dogma" as you call it.

Whose God am I contending against? The Christian? The Muslim? The Raelian?

Oh yeah, the grumpy little countercult avenger god from the Calvinist pantheon.

[seriously honestly]

Just be careful. If you disagree with these folks, you will pay the price and be assaulted by them.

My family is LDS, my extended family on my dad's side (all the way back to Joseph Smith) is LDS, and my bestfriend is LDS. I disagree with all of them on doctrine all the time, they know it, and I have yet to be assulted by them.

I also have not been assualted by Vance, or Zak, or MRSR, or OC for disagreeing.

I love the LDS people but this is a religion heading down the road to outer darkness (Hell) because it contradicts what the bible teaches. Be careful! Don't trust them, don't even trust me, trust God and his word alone as it is written in the bible! Trusting in any man will prove to be a trap and snare. Get into the Bible alone with all your questions and answers. Psalm 118:8 "It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man."

I am off on holidays now...

Take care....God be with you.

At this very moment, between you and I, who do you think has more credibility when we say "I love the LDS people" and why?

[Echo]

More "truth" and "love".

I think you are just sore over the sheep (good works) and goat (no good works) thing.

That's right. I speak the truth, even if it hurts but it's done in love and intended to heal.

Not at all sore, I am absolutely confident in my position without flinching in the slightest. That's why I can present my position to you without sinning against you to make any point. I have that much confidence in the power of the Spirit himself working through God's word.

But you have no confidence in your position, all you have to come back at me with is your sins. Sins prove nothing except the wickedness and evil that is in your own heart. Anyone who wants to be swayed by that kind of man is committing spiritual suicide. I pity the man who's only hope in defending himself is to sin against God and others and to what end? To make others twice as much the son of Hell as he is. (Mathew 23:15)

Why kind of powerless and wimpy God has that man? His God won't defend him and leaves him powerless so that he must resort to sinning as his only defence. Satan leaves his followers to sin as their only defense. That is the only power Satan has (SIN). But the one true God defends his children through the Spirit through the power of God's word, and they never lose confidence.

Your heart is truly filled with evil, a true thistle through and through.

Psalm 73:7 "From their callous hearts comes iniquity ; the evil conceits of their minds know no limits."

Psalm 101:4 "Men of perverse heart shall be far from me; I will have nothing to do with evil."

Proverbs 6:14 "who plots evil with deceit in his heart

[SilverKnight]

Your heart is truly filled with evil, a true thistle through and through.

I think Vance just earned a new sig line.

You have been called a devil by an anti-mormon.

Welcome to the corps. Ooo-rah!

[Echo]

At this very moment, between you and I, who do you think has more credibility when we say "I love the LDS people" and why?

It's not about who has more "credibility". The thing that gives you or I credibility in their eyes is whether they percieve us as weak in our beliefs or strong in our beliefs. Their Kindness is the deceptive tool used to prey upon those they perceive are weak in their beliefs. Beware!

Those people that they percieve as strong in their beliefs, they attempt to destroy!

Get your answers from the BIBLE and no where else. It's your only hope in knowing the truth! God will not let you be decieved by men nor even by me when you Trust him alone!

[Echo]

I think Vance just earned a new sig line.

You have been called a devil by an anti-mormon.

Welcome to the corps. Ooo-rah!

Certainly they charged Jesus with the same charge that he was a devil, but that charge wasn't true because his sinlessness testified to that.

Nothing to OOo-rah when the charge made is true. Vance is truly the devil's right hand man and his multiplicity of sins testifies to that.

[Vance]

I think Vance just earned a new sig line.

You have been called a devil by an anti-mormon.

Welcome to the corps. Ooo-rah!

Just basking in the festival of "love". . . . ah and "truth".

[seriously honestly]

Certainly they charged Jesus with the same charge that he was a devil, but that charge wasn't true because his sinlessness testified to that.

Nothing to OOo-rah when the charge made is true. Vance is truly the devil's right hand man and his multiplicity of sins testifies to that.

Well that was uncalled for.

[SilverKnight]

Vance is truly the devil's right hand man and his multiplicity of sins testifies to that.

You keep giving Vance great sig-lines like that and I am going to get jealous.

Besides, Vance is merely a lesser devil, an Incubus at best.

He hasn't even earned his horns.

I however am a prince of devils, a real Baphomet.

And you have yet to meet the true lord of darkness round here... Danielstopheles.

[WalkerW]

Oh yeah, the grumpy little countercult avenger god from the Calvinist pantheon

Mission: 2 years of your life

Tithing: 10% of your income

Church Meetings: 3 hours every Sunday

Reading SilverKnight's posts on MADB: Priceless

[WalkerW]

Since Echo ignored my posts over at the other thread, I'll post the main one here. From my blog:

There are those who scoff at the school boy, calling him frivolous and shallow. Yet it was the schoolboy who said, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so."

- Mark Twain (Following the Equator, 1897)

It is a shame that the word faith has evolved into such a definition (I realize not exactly the caricature above, but similar enough to invite such a parody). Faith is so often railed against by skeptics and atheists as being belief without evidence, something that a logical human being should reject.[1] Yet, the situation is not helped by our evangelical brothers and sisters who draw a dichotomy between faith and works, largely due to a misunderstanding of Paul's teachings:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9)

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Rom. 3:23-24, 27-28)

While the supposed "Impossible Gospel of Mormonism" has already been addressed, understanding the cultural context behind Paul's words is key. The superiority of 'faith in Christ' over 'works of the law' is being advocated by Paul in an attempt to point his fellow Jews towards the true Memra of God. "To the Jew, Wisdom was the Torah. Wisdom was the Law. They believed that the Law was eternal. That it was there when God was there. That Law given to people in scripture and put down in writing was the mind of God...They made the Law the focus of all that they were about...It was as though the Law had an existence and a personality all of its own. It was an extension of Yahweh."[2] For example, in the Bere'**** Rabbah it reads, "The Holy Blessed One looked into the Torah, and created the world." Rabbinical Judaism attempted to move away from the binitarian Logos theology, deeming the 'Two Powers in Heaven' doctrine heretical. Dr. Daniel Boyarin (Taubman Professor of Rabbinic Culture; UC Berkeley) finds "that what marks the Fourth Gospel as a new departure in the history of Judaism is not to be found in its Logos theology at all but in its incarnational Christology."[3] Paul's epistles are filled with the consistent message "that righteousness doesn't come by the Law. It comes by this person, Jesus. And Paul and the other writers are going to say that that person...is God. He is Wisdom. He is the Word. He is the Angel. He is all these things that we associate with embodied deity in the Old Testament. So, you can see that the conflict is just transparent. It's Christ and the Law. Which Wisdom is it? Which Word is it? Is it this person, Jesus of Nazareth, or is it the Torah?"[4] Christianity did not abandon its Jewish roots as many modern Christians would have it do. It instead amplified them and in a sense restored what had been lost (just as the restoration in these latter days has done). Even the incarnation, while the unique aspect of the Christian Logos, was depicted in ancient temple rituals.[5]

LDS philosopher and scholar Blake Ostler has produced some fine work on the LDS concept of God. According to him, "Godhood or the divine nature is the immutable set of essential properties necessary to be divine. There is only one Godhood or divine essence in this sense. Each of the distinct divine persons shares this set of great-making properties which are severally necessary and jointly sufficient for their possessor to be divine...The unity of the divine persons falls short of identity but is much more intimate than merely belonging to the same class of individuals. There are distinct divine persons, but hardly separated or independent divine persons. In the divine life there is no alienation, isolation, insulation, secretiveness or aloneness. The divine persons exist in a unity that includes loving, inter-penetrating awareness of another who is also in one's self...Humans may share the same divinity as the divine persons through grace by becoming one with the divine persons in the same sense that they are one with each other. However, humans are eternally subordinate to and dependent upon their relationship of loving unity with the divine persons for their status as gods."[6] He goes on to say that "this doctrine of divinity also entails a particular doctrine of grace...[According to "New Perspectives on Paul"], Paul taught that persons enter into a covenant relationship with God through grace alone, but once in the relationship one must abide the conditions of the covenant to remain in Christ. The conditions of the covenant for Paul included the law of love taught by Jesus. Further, in Paul's works grace is not seen as inconsistent with judgment and reward by works...The commandments merely outline the way we must act to avoid injuring the relationship of covenant love that God has offered to us. Thus, the relationship is the primary consideration protected by invoking obedience to commandments. There is no sense of earning the relationship by keeping the commandments. We keep the commandments to maintain our fidelity with God...Persons are accepted as justified when they accept Christ as their Lord and agree to obey the covenant conditions. One is justified when one enters into the relationship, for acceptance into the relationship is justification. One has life in Christ as a result of entering the covenant relationship. Through faithfulness to the covenant conditions, one is thereafter sanctified in the sense that the Holy Ghost makes the person over in the image of God which was lost through the fall. Through sanctification, a person is made holy as God is holy. Through grace, persons are made "partakers of the divine" nature by being purified and becoming pure as He is pure. (1 Peter 1:13-22; 2 Peter 1:3-4; 1 John 3:1-2) Thus, the Mormon doctrine of divinity entails that divinity is humanity fully mature in the grace of Christ."[7] Ostler notes that "the key to the doctrine of grace" is a "covenant relationship with the divine persons in unconditional love." Seeing "God as a community of divine persons" allows us to see grace as an example of "the greatest conceivable love."[8]

We find the oneness of the Godhead and the means of entering this oneness described in Doctrine & Covenants Section 20:

[The] Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; And we know also, that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. But there is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also. (D&C 20:28-34; emphasis mine)

Passages such as this are often ignored by our critics. Instead, the focus largely falls on the following: "For we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Ne. 25:23) The phrase "after all we can do" is harped on as an unbiblical distortion of salvation. What is odd is that the first part of the sentence is ignored: "it is by grace that we are saved." Grace is the saving factor, as demonstrated elsewhere in the Book of Mormon writings:

And remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. (2 Ne. 10:24)

Know that there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah. (2 Ne. 2:

I say, if ye should serve [God] with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants. And behold, all that he requires of you is to keep his commandments; and he has promised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth vary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do keep his commandments he doth bless you and prosper you. And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast? (Mosiah 2:20-24; vs. 34 describes us as

[Echo]

Well that was uncalled for.

Truth is always called for. It isn't loving to let others be decieved by what is going on here. Jesus said alot of things that we might consider "uncalled for" but he did it out of love for people who might be misled by the teaching and yeast of the pharisees. Study the gospels to understand why this is needed.

[Mordecai]

Nothing to OOo-rah when the charge made is true. Vance is truly the devil's right hand man and his multiplicity of sins testifies to that.

I think he's your right-hand man. What would you do without Mormons to trash? Your life would be empty and meaningless.

[WalkerW]

Truth is always called for.

Justify your smugness and intolerance all you want.

Jesus said alot of things that we might consider "uncalled for" but he did it out of love for people who might be misled by the teaching and yeast of the pharisees. Study the gospels to understand why this is needed.

1. You aren't Jesus

2. Jesus rebuked those who were within His faithi.e. Jewish people. Do you consider us Christian?