Christianity and works

[Zakuska]

I would suggest not using the "my/your God" langauge. That is one thing that really bothers me when other say "The mormon god". Or something like it. Just my 2 cents.

I completley agree... I was just following along with Echo's line of reasoning.

Mal. 2: 10

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Heres a dedication for ya vance:

[SilverKnight]

FYI, we do follow James 1:27, we do keep the commandments etc. however we do them freely because we are saved through faith alone. Our works aren't required, they are the fruit of salvation. That is to say that when a person is saved through faith alone, they can't help but desire to do these things. Since you can't understand how anyone would naturally and wholey desire to do good works when they were saved through faith alone, I can understand why it makes no sense to you. You do works for promise of forgiveness and eternal life. We do works because of the forgiveness and eternal life we already have. The difference between you and us is the powerful love of God in our message that is lacking in your message. You have stumbled over the stumbling stone as scripture speaks about. You can't see nor access this powerful love that God has for us because you have a road block in the way that blinds your eyes to it.

Arrogant "I have God, you don't" exclusivism at its finest.

I realize that before you were "saved" you were a wretched miscreant incapable of morality, but-

Long before you found God, the mormon next door, the hindu down the road, the buddhist over on the east side, and even the athiest at the bus stop were capable of morality, compassion, altrusim and good "works". Let me also assure you that a great many people across the earth, including mormons, non-christians and all sorts of people you deem heretic, approach God and have a relationship with him.

It takes a whole lot of nerve to sit there and gush about your monopoly on God. It is indicative of a quite narrow, ignorant, even harmful tribalist mentality that demonstrates everything wrong with religion historically and today.

[Echo]

In spite of the fact that I think you are misusing the CFR rule here I will answer your question.

I posted under the moniker "GB".

I would have thought that you would have figured it out by now.

Echo,

Feel free to twist and wrest these scriptures as much as you like. The facts remain plain and clear! The difference between the "sheep" and the "goats" is good works, which are defined as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned.

No amount of twisting, contorting, or wresting will change these clear and plain facts.

Well now it makes sense to me why they cut you from the blog. You definately earned it by your behavior. I am surprised you didn't get cut sooner, you certainly deserved to be cut sooner. What blashphemy it is to think yourself a spokesman for Jesus when all the while you lacked the one important thing followers of Christ have.....LOVE and you still lack love even here in this forum. Your hatred and comtempt for NON LDS is very plain to the eyes of everyone. I am unsure why you can't see that in yourself. It's unfortunate because we tried over and over to treat you with the utmost love and respect and we didn't mind being called to account if we messed up because we like to keep the peace with the LDS therefore we want to take responsibility for our own actions trying our best to bring no harm to any LDS people at any time. You however were on a vendetta of search and destroy aimed towards everyone in your path no matter how loving they were towards you. If people want to CFR this, they can go and read the blog here http://markcares.wordpress.com/

In our non LDS circles and beliefs, you are the prime example of a person who is a Pharisee, the kind that crucified Jesus. There is no doubt in my mind that you turn people totally off of any religion whether it be your religion or mine. Basically, that is what Satan would do and you are doing a fine job of it.

I can help you and I want to help you. I wouldn't mind spending eternity in the celestial kingdom as your freind. While I say all these things to you to open your eyes for your good and not to harm you, you probably won't take it that way unfortunately. The Pharisess didn't take it that way either. But that's your choice and I will give you that freedom to respond in revenge just like the pharisees responded to Jesus' kindness and love in revenge when they crucified Jesus, you can do that if you want. But right now, all the choices you are making are choices or "fruit" or "wicked works" that will reap for you: outer darkness according to my beliefs. Your a goat through and through! But It doesn't have to be that way. I can help.

If the LDS religion teaches you that obeying the commandments is a requirement to forgiveness and eternal life, your an apostate according to your religion also when you don't carry that out those requirements. An apostate is someone who doesn't carry out what they believe. And why do you think you can't produce God pleasing fruit at all? It's because you have to love God first before he will love you. That is what your beliefs dictate and I know you can't see how this is true but it is true. When there are requirements to be forgiven and gain eternal life, you are loving God (meeting the requirements) before he will love you (forgive and give you eternal life). The Bible doesn't say: "*IF* We love and then he will love us" it says: "We love because he first loved us" God has to go first. And it is impossible for you to love without God first loving you. I doubt you'll understand all of what I am saying here but it is true even if you can't understand how it is true.

If you want to ever talk about that love, post it here or send me a private message and I will reply when I get back from vacation.

Anyways, I am off on vacation now so I can't respond to your other posts at this time.

May God bless you abundantly beyond all that you have ever imagined as he speaks to you through his word in the Bible!

Bye for now.

[Echo]

I answered Echo's questions not because they were relevant, which as you pointed out is NOT the case, but because I wanted to add respect

This is how a Goat responds

[seriously honestly]

It seems that your thread has been hijacked and turned into the "parable of the sheep and the goats" Which we already hve one of those threads.

The issue here is that sheep were sheep for the very reason that they visited the sick and afflicted and visited the widows, ect. The goats were goats becasue they failed to do the things that the sheep and done. The Savior declared to the sheep, "Inasmuch as ye did it to one of the least of these, ye did it to me". And to the goats he claimed "Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me".

This falls inline that we are to server our fellow man, and when we server are fellow man then we are only in the service of God.

Completely agree; those are the type of works we should be focusing on and doing and have a responsibility to perform that will effect our salvation in the very end.

The savior gave the sheep eternal life and the goats were damned. The only difference mentioned in the parable is the works that they did. There is no mention of faith or belief. Faith is required and per the parable fo the sheep and the goats works are required to gain savlation. Which as I recall you already agree with that. I think this came up becasue many claim that works are a product of salvation. Which that is impossible per this very parable. I hope this answers your questions.

I think that even though the passage doesn't mention if they had faith or not, it's safe to conclude that they did. Regardless of what we do or how well we live our lives, if we don't accept Christ as our savior, we're not making the cut. And on that note, there will be those who have accepted the Savior and claim to be Christian but have done nothing with it and will be condemed (even within the mainstreaim Christian community that's true). For example, we learn in John 15 (the first 8 verses) that the Father "cuts off every branch of [Christ's] that doesn

[Echo]

Hahahahaha. I guess that much is true.

Edited: to add even more respect.

This is how a goat responds

[Echo]

I would suggest not using the "my/your God" langauge. That is one thing that really bothers me when other say "The mormon god". Or something like it. Just my 2 cents.

We follow a different God, a different Jesus a different Holy Spirit.

It is a fact and a truth that your going to have to learn to live with. True Christians don't hide the truth, hiding the truth only brings harm to people, revealling the truth brings healing. God, in his love for us, never hid the truth from us that false Gods are worthless, we should go and do likewise.

Jeremiah 16:19 ""Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good."

It is never loving to keep "truth" from people.

Bye for now

[Vance]

Well now it makes sense to me why they cut you from the blog. You definately earned it by your behavior. I am surprised you didn't get cut sooner, you certainly deserved to be cut sooner. What blashphemy it is to think yourself a spokesman for Jesus when all the while you lacked the one important thing followers of Christ have.....LOVE and you still lack love even here in this forum. Your hatred and comtempt for NON LDS is very plain to the eyes of everyone. I am unsure why you can't see that in yourself. It's unfortunate because we tried over and over to treat you with the utmost love and respect and we didn't mind being called to account if we messed up because we like to keep the peace with the LDS therefore we want to take responsibility for our own actions trying our best to bring no harm to any LDS people at any time. You however were on a vendetta of search and destroy aimed towards everyone in your path no matter how loving they were towards you. If people want to CFR this, they can go and read the blog here http://markcares.wordpress.com/

In our non LDS circles and beliefs, you are the prime example of a person who is a Pharisee, the kind that crucified Jesus. There is no doubt in my mind that you turn people totally off of any religion whether it be your religion or mine. Basically, that is what Satan would do and you are doing a fine job of it.

I can help you and I want to help you. I wouldn't mind spending eternity in the celestial kingdom as your freind. While I say all these things to you to open your eyes for your good and not to harm you, you probably won't take it that way unfortunately. The Pharisess didn't take it that way either. But that's your choice and I will give you that freedom to respond in revenge just like the pharisees responded to Jesus' kindness and love in revenge when they crucified Jesus, you can do that if you want. But right now, all the choices you are making are choices or "fruit" or "wicked works" that will reap for you: outer darkness according to my beliefs. Your a goat through and through! But It doesn't have to be that way. I can help.

If the LDS religion teaches you that obeying the commandments is a requirement to forgiveness and eternal life, your an apostate according to your religion also when you don't carry that out those requirements. An apostate is someone who doesn't carry out what they believe. And why do you think you can't produce God pleasing fruit at all? It's because you have to love God first before he will love you. That is what your beliefs dictate and I know you can't see how this is true but it is true. When there are requirements to be forgiven and gain eternal life, you are loving God (meeting the requirements) before he will love you (forgive and give you eternal life). The Bible doesn't say: "*IF* We love and then he will love us" it says: "We love because he first loved us" God has to go first. And it is impossible for you to love without God first loving you. I doubt you'll understand all of what I am saying here but it is true even if you can't understand how it is true.

If you want to ever talk about that love, post it here or send me a private message and I will reply when I get back from vacation.

Anyways, I am off on vacation now so I can't respond to your other posts at this time.

May God bless you abundantly beyond all that you have ever imagined as he speaks to you through his word in the Bible!

Bye for now.

More "truth" and "love" from the Truth In Love Ministry.

[Zakuska]

Completely agree; those are the type of works we should be focusing on and doing and have a responsibility to perform that will effect our salvation in the very end.

In the end those who have done nothing to help others and to build the Kingdom of God will be separated from those who have (hey look at that! we're back to the sheep and the goats)

And it falls directly in line with what Scripture actually says.

Our "Salvation" isn't really given until the very end, IF we hold fast... and Do the works God requires of us.

Heb 3

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

[Vance]

Completely agree; those are the type of works we should be focusing on and doing and have a responsibility to perform that will effect our salvation in the very end.

I think that even though the passage doesn't mention if they had faith or not, it's safe to conclude that they did. Regardless of what we do or how well we live our lives, if we don't accept Christ as our savior, we're not making the cut. And on that note, there will be those who have accepted the Savior and claim to be Christian but have done nothing with it and will be condemed (even within the mainstreaim Christian community that's true). For example, we learn in John 15 (the first 8 verses) that the Father "cuts off every branch of [Christ's] that doesn

[seriously honestly]

ENOUGH WITH THE BICKERING!!!!

I don't care what side of the debate you are on, but no more one liners, no more cheap shots, none of this "mine/yours", etc. I DO NOT want this to turn into a CARM thread (please please please please please ), so it end here.

I would like to have an actual respectful debate. I know things slip from time to time, and we all have our moments, but this is been going on far too long, and I don't want this thread shut down becuase of it.

[Zakuska]

We follow a different God, a different Jesus a different Holy Spirit.

Hmmmm... My Bible didn't tell me so...

Mal. 2: 10

10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Why arn't you following your Bible Echo?

Sorry: Serously Honest, I typed that while you were writing up yours.

[Echo]

ENOUGH WITH THE BICKERING!!!!

I don't care what side of the debate you are on, but no more one liners, no more cheap shots, none of this "mine/yours", etc. I DO NOT want this to turn into a CARM thread (please please please please please ), so it end here.

I would like to have an actual respectful debate. I know things slip from time to time, and we all have our moments, but this is been going on far too long, and I don't want this thread shut down becuase of it.

You can't have a respectful twoway debate with pharisees. Your asking what is impossible for them. You have a better chance of having a respectful debate with athiests than pharisees.

[Zakuska]

You can't have a respectful twoway debate with pharisees. Your asking what is impossible for them. You have a better chance of having a respectful debate with athiests than pharisees.

This coming from a person who beleives the Doctrines of the Pharisees hook line and sinker.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This is how a goat responds

Really, when is the last time you visited the sick or the afflicted?? I will have you know that I was just at the hospital. Thank goodness you are not the one to judge if I were a sheep or a goat.

I suggest we let you keep talking.

Oh one more thing, it is evident that you have lost this particular battle. It is obvious when you start calling names. Is your position really that weak??

[seriously honestly]

You can't have a respectful twoway debate with pharisees. Your asking what is impossible for them. You have a better chance of having a respectful debate with athiests than pharisees.

Are-you-serious?

1. It is not, by any means, "impossible"--I have had many respectful debates before with LDS members.

2. What the hell do you mean "impossible for them"??? Do you thinkg they are they some kind of lower species incapable of of such? That respect is something that only everyone else has??

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Completely agree; those are the type of works we should be focusing on and doing and have a responsibility to perform that will effect our salvation in the very end.

I think that even though the passage doesn't mention if they had faith or not, it's safe to conclude that they did. Regardless of what we do or how well we live our lives, if we don't accept Christ as our savior, we're not making the cut. And on that note, there will be those who have accepted the Savior and claim to be Christian but have done nothing with it and will be condemed (even within the mainstreaim Christian community that's true). For example, we learn in John 15 (the first 8 verses) that the Father "cuts off every branch of [Christ's] that doesn

[Zakuska]

Are-you-serious?

1. It is not, by any means, "impossible"--I have had many respectful debates before with LDS members.

2. What the hell do you mean "impossible for them"??? Do you thinkg they are they some kind of lower species incapable of of such? That respect is something that only everyone else has??

Echo is dead serious. Mormons meet this type of Attitude and respect on a regular basis.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

ENOUGH WITH THE BICKERING!!!!

I don't care what side of the debate you are on, but no more one liners, no more cheap shots, none of this "mine/yours", etc. I DO NOT want this to turn into a CARM thread (please please please please please ), so it end here.

I would like to have an actual respectful debate. I know things slip from time to time, and we all have our moments, but this is been going on far too long, and I don't want this thread shut down becuase of it.

If you would, you can report the offenders (any even if they are LDS) by clicking on the report button under the offending poster, it is located at the bottom left of the each post. I do recall that you had expresed earlier in this thread to keep it respectful. Just explain to the mods that you had expressly said that you wanted this to be respectful and the mods will at the very least ban them from this thread.

[Zakuska]

Really, when is the last time you visited the sick or the afflicted?? I will have you know that I was just at the hospital. Thank goodness you are not the one to judge if I were a sheep or a goat.

I suggest we let you keep talking.

Oh Oh Oh.... pick me pick me!

Matt. 7: 2 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

[Vance]

Oh Oh Oh.... pick me pick me!

Matt. 7: 2 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Or this version, (Luke 6:37) Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Edited to add twice as much respect as Mola usually adds.

Edited again to add an Echo amount of respect.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Or this version, (Luke 6:37) Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Edited to add twice as much respect as Mola usually adds.

If you really wanted to, you could add an uber amount of respect and we could call it an Echo amount of respect.

What?????

I am just say'n......

[Vance]

If you really wanted to, you could add an uber amount of respect and we could call it an Echo amount of respect.

What?????

I am just say'n......

We could call it "an Echo of respect"!

[Zakuska]

Or this version, (Luke 6:37) Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Edited to add twice as much respect as Mola usually adds.

Edited again to add an Echo amount of respect.

I give him an Echo of forgiveness.

[Vance]

I give him an Echo of forgiveness.

"This is how a goat responds"

Just kidding.

Edited to add an Echo of respect.