Dumbest of the Dumb Anti-Mormon Arguments

[ToGo]

I can't speak for Daniel...but if an event in the Book of Mormon is described as having resulted from the action of God...it must be true. Afterall, the Book of Mormon came to us directly through the action of God and his Spirit directed the translation. Hence, I doubt God would inspire and have published a book from him with false accounts of events.

Believeing the story of snakes in the Book of Mormon is no different than believing any of the supernatural events and incidences described in the Bible.

Regards,

Six

Six, if I am following you correctly then, all that is in the BoM is factually correct and otherwise true because it either (1) is revelatory prose from God to a prophet or (2) has been ratified by God. Since Moroni wrote that God caused the snakes to stop when the fleeing people got to Zarahemla and to fell with their poison anyone that tried to leave, God in fact so caused the snakes regardless of whether Ether 9:31-33 is ver batim revelation from God or was Moroni's religious assumption. Please clarify if I have misunderstood your point.

[Pahoran]

A corollary: that the Church "hides" from members and investigators the fact of Joseph Smith having had a gun at Carthage, despite its being in numerous accounts, histories, lesson manuals, dramatic depictions, and at least one prominent museum exhibit over the years between 1844 and now.

Amateur. Don't give up your day job!

The real anti-Mormon argument is apparently that the Church "hides" from members and investigators the fact of Joseph Smith having had a gun at Carthage, by putting it in numerous accounts, histories, lesson manuals, dramatic depictions, and at least one prominent museum exhibit over the years between 1844 and now.

Is that all cleared up now?

Regards,

Pahoran

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

_{Dear People: I was a mormon for too many years, and we are all brainwashed}

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

What about the dumb arguement that Joseph did not translate any of the names of the gods correctly in those facsimilies. What do they think Joseph was? A certifed glass looker?

Hahahahahaha. How about you start a new thread and not derail this one?

[Scott Lloyd]

The best proof against Mormonism appears in the first few pages of the Book of Mormon.

It's the picture of Jesus teaching at at a Mayan Temple.

Where exactly did Jesus visit in America, anyway?

One unexpected result of this thread is that our friendly neighborhood anti-Mormons are making contributions to our compilation of dumb anti-Mormon arguments.

Thorkyll's contribution, apparently, is the notion that an artist's conception -- understood to be an artist's conception by people who know the Church takes no official position on specific Book of Mormon geography -- constitutes "the best proof against Mormonism."

To Thorkyll and colleagues: Keep them coming. You are providing some good examples of supremely dumb arguments. Bravo.

[Pappy Fiddle]

And I dono why it is but you all seem to be overlooking Lance Ferm, the "Sword of Laban".

http://www.truthandg....com/Mormon.htm

Take your pick, every single one of these "critiques" are stupider than anything else ever said on the subject.

Try some samples:

http://www.truthandg....com/1nephi.htm

Dive into chapter 1

http://www.truthandg.../bom1nephi1.htm

WARNING, cross yourself and mutter before reading this shinola

I'm serious. Here's an example from his "1 Nephi - Chapter 3 Critique" :

Verses 1-2: AND it came to pass that I, Nephi, returned from speaking with the Lord, to the tent of my father. And it came to pass that he spake unto me, saying: Behold I have dreamed a dream, in the which the Lord hath commanded me that thou and thy brethren shall return to Jerusalem.

Note: God commanded that the Jews would return only after the captivity in Babylon.

Jeremiah 12:15 "Then it shall be, after I have plucked them out, that I will return and have compassion on them and bring them back, everyone to his heritage and everyone to his land."

Pappy

[Zakuska]

That is pretty dumb.

[Thorkyll]

One unexpected result of this thread is that our friendly neighborhood anti-Mormons are making contributions to our compilation of dumb anti-Mormon arguments.

Thorkyll's contribution, apparently, is the notion that an artist's conception -- understood to be an artist's conception by people who know the Church takes no official position on specific Book of Mormon geography -- constitutes "the best proof against Mormonism."

To Thorkyll and colleagues: Keep them coming. You are providing some good examples of supremely dumb arguments. Bravo.

Too bad I'm not an "anti-Mormon". You can believe anything you like, especially if it doesn't harm anyone. Anyway, I wasn't talking about the picture I was talking about the idea that Jesus visited the Americans and taught henotheism to the natives. Seems rather incredible to me.

[jkfrost]

This one is just bad. I saw the video that had this. I laughed my head off. I could not believe that they made that claim. This same video had portrayals of BY and blood atonement. BY pretending to slice his own throat and his belly, while being at the pulpit at GC. This of course was to signify that there were apostates in the crowd.

It dawned on my that the video made that claim that we (the LDS) sacrificed virgins in the Salt Lake temple and dumped their bodies out of the basement windows into the Great Salt Lake.

Of course it is possible that I am not remembering it correctly.

You are mistaken, it was Lake Bonneville at the time

not the Great Salt lake that pales in comparison.

[selek]

One unexpected result of this thread is that our friendly neighborhood anti-Mormons are making contributions to our compilation of dumb anti-Mormon arguments.

Thorkyll's contribution, apparently, is the notion that an artist's conception -- understood to be an artist's conception by people who know the Church takes no official position on specific Book of Mormon geography -- constitutes "the best proof against Mormonism."

To Thorkyll and colleagues: Keep them coming. You are providing some good examples of supremely dumb arguments. Bravo.

It's something of an axiom in ranching that you can tell you hit a tender spot with the cattleprod by how the calves bellow.

Likewise in security, you can tell you hit a nerve cluster by how the corpse twitches.

ToGo, Radix, TacoGrande, and the other anti-Mormon lurkers are coming out of the woodwork like cockroaches fleeing a smoky room.

Guess we musta struck a nerve, huh?

[jkfrost]

No physical archaeological evidence for the FAITH?

evidence for FAITH - generally for the BOM

not the D&C mind you for the D&C evidence out ways the NT firsthand eyewitnesses by far.

How does one know for sure that Paul John saw the resurrected Jesus???

How does one know for sure that Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon saw Jesus D&C 76???

Tell me what new comment or question have you seen that has not been brought up before

over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over over and over again?

Many of them can be applied directly to the Bible.

Name one that has not been answered online already?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Too bad I'm not an "anti-Mormon". You can believe anything you like, especially if it doesn't harm anyone. Anyway, I wasn't talking about the picture I was talking about the idea that Jesus visited the Americans and taught henotheism to the natives. Seems rather incredible to me.

I think you missed the boat on what Scott was talking about. I suggest going back and reading what he wrote. Try to look at his comments in the context of this thread.

Artist depcitions of BoM event do no represent offical doctrine. As such you bring up an artist dipiction and think it portrays events as if that is how they really happened and then conitnue to poo poo on those ideas.

It would be a darn shame if you chose to poo poo on those picture, why? Because you are falling into the trap of the "dumbest anti-mormon arguments".

You need not be an anti-mormon to fall into the trap that they use. I hope this helps.

IOW the comments that you make are the same ones that the anti-mormons make, and your example is a prime example of the "dumbest anti-mormon arguments".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

You are mistaken, it was Lake Bonneville at the time

not the Great Salt lake that pales in comparison.

Oh? I see.

[Scott Lloyd]

Too bad I'm not an "anti-Mormon". You can believe anything you like, especially if it doesn't harm anyone. Anyway, I wasn't talking about the picture I was talking about the idea that Jesus visited the Americans and taught henotheism to the natives. Seems rather incredible to me.

So, according to the above revision, it's not the picture, as such, that bothers Thorkyll, it's the idea that the resurrected Christ would visit Israelite descendants in another hemisphere and teach them what is essentially the doctrine contained in his intercessory prayer as recorded in John 17 (cf 3 Nephi 19:28-29). The idea offends Thorkyll's sectarian dogmatism; therefore, the Book of Mormon must be false.

If that's not a dumb argument, it's certainly a weak one.

[Brenda]

Is it true that in one of the God Maker movies, we learned that the hand motions for Popcorn Popping on the Apricot Tree, represent some secret ritual?

Maybe not, it's too ridiculous. But if so, that gets my vote.

[jkfrost]

Is it true that in one of the God Maker movies, we learned that the hand motions for Popcorn Popping on the Apricot Tree, represent some secret ritual?

Maybe not, it's too ridiculous. But if so, that gets my vote.

perhaps one should heed the warning of I have two little hands...you know the one

on another "note" how could they know the English name for Jesus 600 years before he was born?

[Calm]

So, according to the above revision, it's not the picture, as such, that bothers Thorkyll, it's the idea that the resurrected Christ would visit Israelite descendants in another hemisphere and teach them what is essentially the doctrine contained in his intercessory prayer as recorded in John 17 (cf 3 Nephi 19:28-29). The idea offends Thorkyll's sectarian dogmatism; therefore, the Book of Mormon must be false.

If that's not a dumb argument, it's certainly a weak one.

I believe Thorkyll is not Christian, though I've missed any post identifying what Jewish sect he belongs to (Reform, Orthodox, other....).

[Scott Lloyd]

I believe Thorkyll is not Christian, though I've missed any post identifying what Jewish sect he belongs to (Reform, Orthodox, other....).

Ah, I see. So Thorkyll probably has a problem with the idea of Christ being resurrected at all, not just his going in resurrected form to visit disciples in another hemisphere.

Either way, personal unbelief is not prima facie evidence of falsehood.

[Wiki Wonka]

Is it true that in one of the God Maker movies, we learned that the hand motions for Popcorn Popping on the Apricot Tree, represent some secret ritual?

Maybe not, it's too ridiculous. But if so, that gets my vote.

Well, I've watched both GM and GM-II a number of times, and I don't recall that particular claim...however, there are some really dumb things in both God Makers movies. I'll give you a few good ones that are in the films:

From "The God Makers II":

The poor Mormon woman is promised eternal pregnancy. Mormon men need to understand that there's a threat that if they're not good Mormons, married in the Mormon temple and faithful to the end, then when they get to heaven they will be castrated. They'll be made eunuchs--there'll be an operation take place. So Mormonism takes beautiful word of god and makes it into a sexual story.

What church is she (Thelma Greer) describing?

Among the Mormon temple rituals is the practice of baptism for the dead, when the dead are called up to convert to Mormonism. During these ceremonies many Mormons have had exhilarating and even frightening encounters with apparitions or spirit beings inside the temple.

I've been missing out...

Two of my favorites from "The God Makers":

Mormons own a substantial portion of Hawaii.

We do??? I want my piece of Hawaii...

Instead of going back to one of the standard works of the [Mormon] Church, I went to the Bible...

So, the Bible isn't one of the standard works???

[Thorkyll]

So, according to the above revision, it's not the picture, as such, that bothers Thorkyll, it's the idea that the resurrected Christ would visit Israelite descendants in another hemisphere and teach them what is essentially the doctrine contained in his intercessory prayer as recorded in John 17 (cf 3 Nephi 19:28-29). The idea offends Thorkyll's sectarian dogmatism; therefore, the Book of Mormon must be false.

If that's not a dumb argument, it's certainly a weak one.

I'm just saying that the idea of Jesus going to America is a bit far-fetched.

Rather than descend to anywhere outside of the Holy Land, it would have

made more sense to stay at home and write in his own Gospel, with an

unambiguous articulation of his teachings. He would thereby precluding

millions of deaths over the last two thousand years which were because

of confusion about what he taught.

[notHagoth7]

...it would have made more sense to stay at home and write in his own Gospel, with an

unambiguous articulation of his teachings.

What is ambiguous about the central message in the Book of Mormon?

He would thereby precluding millions of deaths over the last two thousand years which were because

of confusion about what he taught.

Any ancient language can be misunderstood, lead to dissenting interpretations, and/or lead to confusion.

Sometimes the best way to resolve confusion is to issue subsequent clarifications.

Which is what the Book of Mormon and subsequent guidance provides.

[Thorkyll]

What is ambiguous about the central message in the Book of Mormon?

I meant the New Testament. It's full of contradictions for all the world to see.

If only Jesus had written his own gospel or his own epistles...

Any ancient language can be misunderstood, lead to dissenting interpretations, and/or lead to confusion.

Sometimes the best way to resolve confusion is to issue subsequent clarifications.

Which is what the Book of Mormon and subsequent guidance provides.

You wouldn't even need a Book of Mormon if Jesus had done the job right in the first place.

[Jerubaal]

You wouldn't even need a Book of Mormon if Jesus had done the job right in the first place.

Well, the thread is getting derailed a bit in the first place, but I'll go ahead and ask anyways: What do you feel was Jesus' "job" in the first place? It wasn't to provide a fully expounded theology for His followers, it was to die for their sins.

And, at least as far as Mormons believe, the doctrines of the NT were much clearer prior to being tampered with by ill-designing individuals.

[Jeff K.]

notHagoth7, on 24 November 2009 - 03:54 AM, said:

What is ambiguous about the central message in the Book of Mormon?

I meant the New Testament. It's full of contradictions for all the world to see.

If only Jesus had written his own gospel or his own epistles...

notHagoth7, on 24 November 2009 - 03:54 AM, said:

Any ancient language can be misunderstood, lead to dissenting interpretations, and/or lead to confusion.

Sometimes the best way to resolve confusion is to issue subsequent clarifications.

Which is what the Book of Mormon and subsequent guidance provides.

You wouldn't even need a Book of Mormon if Jesus had done the job right in the first place.

You presume that God does not allow people to choose and make choices. You also presume that the Book of Mormon was seen as being needed long before it was. In other words you presume God is unaware of what is going on and exists on contingency alone. Your presumptions are erroneous.

How do you reconcile faith within the context of the position you have taken in this post.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

There are a few of them, some of them you will know, others you will see here perhaps for the first time, on my sojourns on other forums...

They go in range from the mildly ignorant to the absolute foolish...in another board (some of those guys make CARM look mild) there are a few people who go as far as to say that we speak to the dead and sacrifice people in our temples...