Capital Punishment

[Jeff K.]

I can point you to one recent case where a man was placed on death row due to prosecutorial misconduct among other things. Fortunately for the man in question, the details came to light and he was finally acquitted. Caution needs to be exercised all along the way.

Glenn

Which to me reflects the system working. One would assume with the executions in place for the past long period of time, that an erroneous one would be uncovered by now.

[BCSpace]

Jesus himself is silent on that subject.

Actually, Jesus recognized the divine source of capital punishment here:

For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

Matthew 15:4

And a few verses later essentially admitted that he gave the command.

[mercyngrace]

Which to me reflects the system working. One would assume with the executions in place for the past long period of time, that an erroneous one would be uncovered by now.

Project Innocence lists 17 death row inmates exonerated by DNA evidence. Keep in mind, they tackle very few cases due to limited resources. Stats from their first 74 exonerations indicate that 50% of the wrong verdicts were a direct result of police misconduct. The biggest percentage of that misconduct was a 'sin' of omission - not including exculpatory evidence. If this is even remotely representative, the system is seriously broken.

[AddamS]

Non LDS - Opposed to Capital Punishment

Reasons:

I don't believe the government should have the right to kill one of its own citizens.

The justice system isn't correct 100% of the time. It can't be as it is administered by faulty human beings. I am of the belief that it's better to let 1000 guilty men live than execute one innocent.

It's too expensive. By the time excutions actually happen the appeals process has been exhausted and generally costs much more taxpayer money than keeping the convict in jail for life.

It's an easy way out. I can't speak for everyone, but if I could choose to check out early or spend the next 50 years in solitary. I'd climb in that chair faster than you could say "direct current".

[Mordecai]

Non LDS - Opposed to Capital Punishment

Reasons:

I don't believe the government should have the right to kill one of its own citizens.

It's the government's job to make life and death decisions, when necessary. Who else will, otherwise? Individuals obviously shouldn't do it, so why not a justice system with checks and balances and the law and reason to inform it along the way?

The justice system isn't correct 100% of the time. It can't be as it is administered by faulty human beings. I am of the belief that it's better to let 1000 guilty men live than execute one innocent.

If the death penalty is imposed only for murderers and is used to prevent future murders, as a deterrent and a teaching device, it ought to save far more innocent lives than it costs. As I pointed out, Project Exile functioned as an excellent deterrent and reduced gun violence by 40%. A long term campaign of informing would-be murderers of the penalty and the message that is sent by only putting to death those that murder, would, in my opinion, prevent many many murders.

It's too expensive. By the time excutions actually happen the appeals process has been exhausted and generally costs much more taxpayer money than keeping the convict in jail for life.

There is always judicial reform, as opposed to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

It's an easy way out. I can't speak for everyone, but if I could choose to check out early or spend the next 50 years in solitary. I'd climb in that chair faster than you could say "direct current".

What's the point of that? Do prisoners typically become better in maximum security prisons in isolation? Does that send a good message to the public, that the penalty for murder is a really long time-out? I don't think it's a good message to send, as it seems to minimize the seriousness of murder. While it does seem worse to rot in prison for 50 years, it's far less terrifying and less informative as a means of prevention.

[ERayR]

Non LDS - Opposed to Capital Punishment

Reasons:

I don't believe the government should have the right to kill one of its own citizens.

The justice system isn't correct 100% of the time. It can't be as it is administered by faulty human beings. I am of the belief that it's better to let 1000 guilty men live than execute one innocent.

It's too expensive. By the time excutions actually happen the appeals process has been exhausted and generally costs much more taxpayer money than keeping the convict in jail for life.

It's an easy way out. I can't speak for everyone, but if I could choose to check out early or spend the next 50 years in solitary. I'd climb in that chair faster than you could say "direct current".

I have heard those sentiments before but not from anyone where one of the 1,000 had crossed the path of their family or friends. It is a noble sentimant to hold to, right up to the time violent crime becomes personal.

[mercyngrace]

I have heard those sentiments before but not from anyone where one of the 1,000 had crossed the path of their family or friends. It is a noble sentimant to hold to, right up to the time violent crime becomes personal.

Enjoy the true story of Corrie ten Boom.

[Glenn101]

Which to me reflects the system working. One would assume with the executions in place for the past long period of time, that an erroneous one would be uncovered by now.

I do not know what if any resources are being used to uncover erroneous executions. Most of the resources seem to be focused on people still on death row. But how about the case of Cameron Todd Willingham for one?

Glenn

[ERayR]

Enjoy the true story of Corrie ten Boom.

I understand forgiveness I think as well as anyone. I am all for it. Personal forgiveness does not absolve the perpetrator of the legal consequence of their actions. Only Christs forgiveness can do that.

I state again the sentiment of letting 1,000 guilty go free rather than convict one innocent person is very noble but when one of that 1,000 crosses paths with you, your family or friends, When one of those rapes and murders your child then come back and tell me you still adhere to those sentiments.

[mercyngrace]

I understand forgiveness I think as well as anyone. I am all for it. Personal forgiveness does not absolve the perpetrator of the legal consequence of their actions. Only Christs forgiveness can do that.

I state again the sentiment of letting 1,000 guilty go free rather than convict one innocent person is very noble but when one of that 1,000 crosses paths with you, your family or friends, When one of those rapes and murders your child then come back and tell me you still adhere to those sentiments.

Okay. My niece married a young man who later molested her 2 year old daughter. While my niece was pregnant with their second child and completely unaware of what was happening, her husband was slipping drugs into her dinner to keep her sleeping so that he could perpetrate this abomination. When she discovered him in the act, quite by accident, it was to me that she brought her children - just so you know I'm not sharing a story about someone distantly related. She bypassed her own mother and came to my house. When she went off the deep end, as you can imagine she did, she gave me custody of her children. So, you can rest assured this hit close.

I don't wish him dead. He is sick. I wish someone would help him be well. I have unending compassion for his parents who have suffered tremendously and for all his family, who live with the horror and shame of his actions.

edited to add:

It has been my experience that actually living through a particular adversity can help us develop compassion and to see those adverse situations with more depth. Those things I tend to see as very black and white are the ones I haven't yet experienced.

[Jeff K.]

I do not know what if any resources are being used to uncover erroneous executions. Most of the resources seem to be focused on people still on death row. But how about the case of Cameron Todd Willingham for one?

Glenn

The anti deathrow groups are spending a great deal to find them. They do so because the effect would be significantly greater. They still haven't found one. It would be more convincing if they did.

[Glenn101]

The anti deathrow groups are spending a great deal to find them. They do so because the effect would be significantly greater. They still haven't found one. It would be more convincing if they did.

I pointed out one. Cameron Todd Willingham. Here is a link to the story.

And then there is this one:

" Joseph O'Dell Virginia Conviction: 1986, Executed: 1997

New DNA blood evidence has thrown considerable doubt on the murder and rape conviction of O'Dell. In reviewing his case in 1991, three Supreme Court Justices, said they had doubts about O'Dell's guilt and whether he should have been allowed to represent himself. Without the blood evidence, there is little linking O'Dell to the crime. In September, 1996, the 4th Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals reinstated his death sentence and upheld his conviction. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to review O'Dell's claims of innocence and held that its decision regarding juries being told about the alternative sentence of life-without-parole was not retroactive to his case. O'Dell asked the state to conduct DNA tests on other pieces of evidence to demonstrate his innocence but was refused. He was executed on July 23rd."

Glenn

[Jeff K.]

I pointed out one. Cameron Todd Willingham. Here is a link to the story.

And then there is this one:

" Joseph O'Dell Virginia Conviction: 1986, Executed: 1997

New DNA blood evidence has thrown considerable doubt on the murder and rape conviction of O'Dell. In reviewing his case in 1991, three Supreme Court Justices, said they had doubts about O'Dell's guilt and whether he should have been allowed to represent himself. Without the blood evidence, there is little linking O'Dell to the crime. In September, 1996, the 4th Circuit of the U.S. Court of Appeals reinstated his death sentence and upheld his conviction. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to review O'Dell's claims of innocence and held that its decision regarding juries being told about the alternative sentence of life-without-parole was not retroactive to his case. O'Dell asked the state to conduct DNA tests on other pieces of evidence to demonstrate his innocence but was refused. He was executed on July 23rd."

Glenn

From what I have raised, it did indeed raise doubts to his guilt, however other evidence was ample in showing the guilt, he was not exonerate him.

When I speak of exoneration I am looking for a case where the DNA shows that the man was not there.

The article seemed a bit one sided in ignoring the other evidence.

[Smith]

Segregation occurs in the prison population which quarantines the "cancer" while still allowing the murderer to repent should his heart be turned.

A murderer cant repent fully. Part of repentance is restitution, (s)he has taken something that cant be returned and so can only pay by giving the like of what was taken. A heavy price yes but so was the taken life of great worth. I am reminded of the Jewish tradition where the view of why it is so wrong to take a life is that you dont just take a life, you take a race!

[Smith]

If you are wrong and this is the only shot at life we have, how terrible is it that you treat ending it so cavalierly?

Not unlike the murderer did not so? So why should (s)he be shown a mercy he wasn't prepared to extend? I call that a cockeyed morality.

[mercyngrace]

Not unlike the murderer did not so? So why should (s)he be shown a mercy he wasn't prepared to extend? I call that a cockeyed morality.

Smith,

I laughed out loud when I read your comment. It reminds me of my 7 year old's logic - perhaps you, too, have heard the twisted way some little kids use the Golden Rule. You see your son, hand raised to smack his brother, and you chide "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, dear...." to which your son responds "He hit me first, he must've wanted me to hit him!"

We don't extend mercy to others because they deserve it. Otherwise it wouldn't be mercy - it would be justice. We extend mercy because we are trying to become like Jesus Christ, who taught

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

(Luke 6)

[mercyngrace]

A murderer cant repent fully. Part of repentance is restitution, (s)he has taken something that cant be returned and so can only pay by giving the like of what was taken. A heavy price yes but so was the taken life of great worth. I am reminded of the Jewish tradition where the view of why it is so wrong to take a life is that you dont just take a life, you take a race!

The problem, Smith, is that people in our jails are judged by man's definition of murder not God's.

Moses killed an Egyptian - is he a murderer?

Nephi killed Laban in cold blood - is he a murderer?

Paul called himself a murderer IIRC - is he?

And if a "murderer" can't be forgiven, why do we baptize some?

[Glenn101]

From what I have raised, it did indeed raise doubts to his guilt, however other evidence was ample in showing the guilt, he was not exonerate him.

When I speak of exoneration I am looking for a case where the DNA shows that the man was not there.

The article seemed a bit one sided in ignoring the other evidence.

Which one are you talking about? The Willingham case or the O'Dell case? In the O'Dell case later DNA tests have thrown considerable doubt as to the validity of the tests taht were used to convict him. That was the only real evidence used in the case. There were no witnesses who had even seen the two together. The two had been at the same bar at one time. O'Dell was engaged in a fight the same night which got blood on his clothes.

The Willingham case is different. There is no dna to test either way. The conviction was largely based on expert testimony on fires and the use of accelerants which has been invalidated. All of the other evidence was circumstantial.

One of the problems in these cases is that many of the people accused and convicted are not very likeable people and it may be easier to dismiss exculpatory evidence after such a person has been executed.

The numbers of cases of people who are on death row who have been exonerated by DNA testing should provide us some basis for a belief that some of those who have been executed prior to the advent of this science have been wrongly convicted and executed.

My main point here is that I could not in good conscience uphold the death penalty for anyone unless the evidence took me way beyond a reasonable doubt into the realm of reasonable certainty. And I do not really know where that lies.

Glenn

[SlackTime]

Regarding the OP and the question of the poll. I am for capital punishment because God has revealed that He requires it. Quoting old testament scriptures may not mean anything today, so here is the Lord's will in our day.

D&C 42:

18 And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.

19 And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die.

Now why do we baptize some few who committed murder? Because we believe in revelation. Such cases have to come before the first presidency who reveals the Lord's will on a case by case basis. For there are mitigating issues that we may not know and the Lord does. For example.

2 Nephi

35 Wo unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die.

I.E. non-deliberate killing is not the same as deliberate.

So, yes, I support capital punishment. Carefully applied in accordance with law.

- SlackTime

[Jeff K.]

Which one are you talking about? The Willingham case or the O'Dell case? In the O'Dell case later DNA tests have thrown considerable doubt as to the validity of the tests taht were used to convict him. That was the only real evidence used in the case. There were no witnesses who had even seen the two together. The two had been at the same bar at one time. O'Dell was engaged in a fight the same night which got blood on his clothes.

The Willingham case is different. There is no dna to test either way. The conviction was largely based on expert testimony on fires and the use of accelerants which has been invalidated. All of the other evidence was circumstantial.

One of the problems in these cases is that many of the people accused and convicted are not very likeable people and it may be easier to dismiss exculpatory evidence after such a person has been executed.

The numbers of cases of people who are on death row who have been exonerated by DNA testing should provide us some basis for a belief that some of those who have been executed prior to the advent of this science have been wrongly convicted and executed.

My main point here is that I could not in good conscience uphold the death penalty for anyone unless the evidence took me way beyond a reasonable doubt into the realm of reasonable certainty. And I do not really know where that lies.

Glenn

I am speaking of the ODell case. I would not judge that considerable doubt has been raised. I would say that some doubt had been raised, but then there was also eye witness testimony contradicting O'Dell's assertions on a number of issues (he claimed (he was kicked out of the bar where he confronted the victim, eyewitnesses said that did not occur -- one example). Within the context of the overall case I would not say that he was exonerated.

And a clear cut "this man did not do it" would indeed be a blow to those who feel the death penalty is appropriate, given all the safeguards, I do not have an issue with it.

As to DNA exonerations today: The number of cases on death row do not provide a basis for belief simply because if one were to extrapolate them, then it should be easy to find many who have been innocently executed. It hasn't happened.

My main point here is that I could not in good conscience uphold the death penalty for anyone unless the evidence took me way beyond a reasonable doubt into the realm of reasonable certainty. And I do not really know where that lies.

I can appreciate your point, but allow me to say my conscience is clear, I sleep well at night and I do not have a problem with the death penalty enforcement. Nor am I a sociopath or someone without a conscience. Some seek the absolute standard of perfection as the only way, which is disengenuous, what they really mean is that we should not have it. I disagree. I think that society has the right to permanently remove someone who is a danger.

[mercyngrace]

Some seek the absolute standard of perfection as the only way, which is disengenuous, what they really mean is that we should not have it.

Here we can completely agree, Jeff. There is no way to meet a perfect standard. You find that absolutist mentality on every issue. One in a million people gets sick from a vaccine so we should abandon immunizations... etc.

I'm still kind of on the fence because I always prefer to err on the side of mercy. Thankfully, I only have to consider this matter in the theoretical sense. I do not believe that I could flip the switch or administer the injection.

[Jeff K.]

Here we can completely agree, Jeff. There is no way to meet a perfect standard. You find that absolutist mentality on every issue. One in a million people gets sick from a vaccine so we should abandon immunizations... etc.

I'm still kind of on the fence because I always prefer to err on the side of mercy. Thankfully, I only have to consider this matter in the theoretical sense. I do not believe that I could flip the switch or administer the injection.

It is a wide fence, lots of people on it. Nothing says that we cannot change our minds as evidence on the different sides becomes more prominent in our minds. While I favor capital punishment as a means, I also am aware of the constitutional responsibilities. Under German law places like Auschwitz were completely legal (an argument used during the Nuremberg trials). When we are more certain, who knows, perhaps I will change my mind. I have had some of those killers described to me by a former guest of the state system. I wouldn't have a problem pushing the plunger, throwing the switch, flipping it, or administering it personally. Many have decided the rules of society do not apply to them, their conscience is "clear" in that it is about what they want in a given time, they take it, including lives which they view as a tradeable commodity. When it was explained to me, it was most chilling.

[O-Brother]

A murderer cant repent fully. Part of repentance is restitution, (s)he has taken something that cant be returned and so can only pay by giving the like of what was taken. A heavy price yes but so was the taken life of great worth. I am reminded of the Jewish tradition where the view of why it is so wrong to take a life is that you dont just take a life, you take a race!

Exception: If the Lord commanded the person to kill as in Nephi's case when he gave Laban a new hair cut. If angels in Heaven rejoice when a person repents, imagine what they do when innocent blood is shed. Shedding innocent blood, in my view, is a big deal. Shedding innocent blood unncessarily, even that of animals, has repercussions, as the Lord has commanded that killing of animals, for example, is to be done sparingly and only in times of need and famine. In essence, we've been killing animals for sport, for fun and cruelty. God created ALL things spiritually first, then physically. Therefore, we are not supposed to deliberaly destroy God's creations, which includes human and animal life. We will be held accountable for every life we take without any justification. This poses a huge problem for McDonald's, doesn' it?

Just kidding. Something to think about while you eat a tasty McChicken or Double Quarter Pounder with cheese.

[Jeff K.]

Exception: If the Lord commanded the person to kill as in Nephi's case when he gave Laban a new hair cut.

Some people simply cannot understand "a little off the top".

[O-Brother]

Some people cannot understand "a little off the top".

Have you ever actually seen a decapitation? It's not a pretty site. It's hard to imagine Nephi doing that and being a great Prophet. Also all those wars mentioned in the book of Mormon were very gruesome in nature as they fought with swords. Anyway, yes, Laban had a permanent hair cut or should I say, head cut.