Capital Punishment

[Redefined]

Freedom is every human's natural right, unless their decisions infringe on somebody else's freedom. So prisoners put themselves in the positions they are in. Is capital punishment the answer? I would say no, because it doesn't solve the bigger problem. If it is true that crime largely results from undereducated or financially distraught persons, then the solution would be to educate these individuals so that they can go on to earn a decent living and be constructive to society. I know that rich, and educated people are not below crimes, in their case, there may be issues that can open up understanding and work toward being resolved. It will only benefit society to work towards resolution so in the future we can stop crime before it starts.

[krose]

I think fear of the death penalty would work equally well against would-be murderers.

Then the USA should have the lowest murder rate in the world, or at least much lower than countries that do not execute.

The fact is that people rarely consider the consequences of getting caught before committing murder.

[krose]

As with regards to Capital Punishment, I am all for it. Consider what happened in the BoM. Captain Moroni had many of the "kingmen" put to death for a lot less then we do today. Infact I think that we are to PC about it. Any way that is my 2 cents.

Yeah, let's be more like other, less 'PC' places, where people are executed for crimes such as apostasy, sodomy, prostitution, drug possession, poaching and witchcraft.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yeah, let's be more like other, less 'PC' places, where people are executed for crimes such as apostasy, sodomy, prostitution, drug possession, poaching and witchcraft.

How about we actually put death people that have killed other people or raped kids? All I am saying is lets do what justice demands. I think you missed my point. Case in point is what happened recently when a ceratin terrorist killed 13 people. Lets call it what it is and deal with it in an appropriate matter. That is what "less PC" means. I love how you like to go to the extremes.

[Vindicator]

With the coverage of tonight's execution of the Beltway sniper, John Allen Muhammad, I was wondering about the church's position on capital punishment. Lds.org describes the church's position in this way:

Given that this statement allows for a variety of views, I was wondering how some of you feel about the death penalty. The poll won't be public but if you don't mind explaining your position, I'd be interested in reading it.

Thanks.

Eye for an Eye!

[Walden]

I abhor the practice of capital punishment and believe that it goes against the principle of redemption, as taught through the Atonement. Of course, there are a number of Bible verses and Book of Mormon verses that people on each side of the debate can offer up to support their views on capital punishment, but I think this is a classic case of missing the forest for the trees.

Evidentally, capital punishment does little, if anything, to decrease the rate of murder or violence. Otherwise, the US would have a much lower rate of violence.

Also, I do not think that the government should be in the revenge business, and in my opinion, that is what capital punishment is about.

[mercyngrace]

I abhor the practice of capital punishment and believe that it goes against the principle of redemption, as taught through the Atonement. Of course, there are a number of Bible verses and Book of Mormon verses that people on each side of the debate can offer up to support their views on capital punishment, but I think this is a classic case of missing the forest for the trees.

Evidentally, capital punishment does little, if anything, to decrease the rate of murder or violence. Otherwise, the US would have a much lower rate of violence.

Also, I do not think that the government should be in the revenge business, and in my opinion, that is what capital punishment is about.

Yeah... I'm still looking for the verses that say "Blessed are the vengeful for they shall inherit the earth" or "Vengence is yours sayeth the Lord"...

[mercyngrace]

Eye for an Eye!

Matthew 5:

38

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Evidentally, capital punishment does little, if anything, to decrease the rate of murder or violence. Otherwise, the US would have a much lower rate of violence.

I disagree with this. If people knew they were not going to die there would more than likely be more killings as there would be less "harsh" consiquences. Can either of us prove our points? No. We just see things differently.

[Jeff K.]

I've heard the same, and it seems quite possibly true, though I haven't personally seen any hard statistics on it. Still , I personally support the death penalty. Not so much for theological reasons (though I believe the scriptures support the practice) but because I believe there is some sort of abstract ideal of justice that is met when certain exceptionally heinous crimes are punished with death.

I had responded to this earlier, but I would like to throw it out again.

Capital punishment and death row are extremely expensive from what I understand because of all the appeals and everything (hundreds of millionsof dollars!). So, even from a society pov it is more cost effective to just let them sit in jail.

I think the money could better be spent by figuring out how to keep people from wanting to kill to begin with.

[ERayR]

My opinion:

Capital punishment is wrong because it seeks vengeance, restores nothing, and it is contrary to the Atonement. Mosaic and pre-Mosaic law is either followed or not; one can't pick and chose. If we use that as the basis for executing criminals, then let's stone adulterers too. If capital punishment were meted out by a true prophet of God who could verify that each and every instance was God's will, then it would merely sicken me, but I would support it faithfully. Since this is not the case, my feeling is that capital punishment is murder and those who carry it out and those who support it will have to answer for their sins and will have no place in the Celestial Kingdom.

H.

Capital punishment is not about vengence. Some crimes against a society are so heinous that the person committing those crimes relenquish all claim on the support of that society. In present case John Allen Muhamed he killed randomly and with abandon, leaving children without mothers and fathers, killing husbands , wives, daughters, sons. Stripping society of productive members whose accomplishments for society we will now never know.

Capital punishment is about removing a cancerous, diseased organism from its midst.

[Jeff K.]

As with regards to Capital Punishment, I am all for it. Consider what happened in the BoM. Captain Moroni had many of the "kingmen" put to death for a lot less then we do today. Infact I think that we are to PC about it. Any way that is my 2 cents.

And it was post atonement. I think this reflects a certain neutrality in God's view, that he does indeed allow a society to take a life to protect itself. Otherwise it would seem to be a grave sin in which the Lord through his prophet would condemn it. At least from what I have seen in that regard.

[ERayR]

I'm certainly not in favor of lying down and accepting death rather than fighting back, Anti-Nephi-Lehi style.

Why not? Consistency would argue that is just what you should do. After all what gives you the right to take a life you can not create?

[mercyngrace]

Capital punishment is about removing a cancerous, diseased organism from its midst.

How does imprisonment not accomplish the same end?

[divinenature]

Jeff K. I believe I stated that the expense of "Death Row" was the appeals, etc. It doesn't matter. Being sentenced to life w/o parol is cheaper, by far, than death row.

PLUS, the hundreds of millions of dollars could have been put to better use actually preventing murder. Education, food, therapy, cash-for-guns programs, billboards and ad campaigns would be a much better use of the money and do a lot more good in the world. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

The thing is, no other area put that kind of money into a prevention campaign so there are no good comparisons out there. At least none that I'm aware of.

If God wants us to use capitol punishment so badly he sure is sending mixed messages in the scriptures. I'm gonna error on the side of caution, love, mercy and forgiveness.

Why did God spare Cain? In fact, he gave him a special "mark" so that he wouldn't receive the death penalty.

Why did Jesus ask the Father to forgive his executioners? They were participating in killing an innocent man.

Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy.

[ERayR]

How does imprisonment not accomplish the same end?

Two things: First as long as the cancer is alive it has the possibility to get out and repeat the heinous acts

Second locked in prison society is forced to share its resources with the ones who would destroy even the society itself.

Capital punishment assures that the one committing the aborhant crimes will not repeat those crimes nor teach them (infect) someone else. The resources of a society represent the efforts of its members and should not be forced to share with someone who would destroy that society.

[BCSpace]

Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy

What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

Alma 42:25

Now, if there was no law given

[jkfrost]

Capital Punishment - are you talking about DC?

Alma 1:8 Now the name of the man was Gideon; and it was he who

was an instrument in the hands of God in delivering the people of Limhi out of bondage.

9 Now, because Gideon withstood him with the words of God he was wroth with Gideon,

and drew his sword and began to smite him. Now Gideon being stricken with many years,

therefore he was not able to withstand his blows, therefore he was slain by the sword.

10 And the man who slew him was taken by the people of the church, and was brought before Alma,

to be judged according to the crimes which he had committed.

11 And it came to pass that he stood before Alma and pleaded for himself with much boldness.

12 But Alma said unto him: Behold, this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among this people.

And behold, thou art not only guilty of priestcraft, but hast endeavored to enforce it by the sword;

and were priestcraft to be enforced among this people it would prove their entire destruction.

13 And thou hast shed the blood of a righteous man, yea, a man who has done much good among this people;

and were we to spare thee his blood would come upon us for vengeance.

14 Therefore thou art condemned to die, according to the law which has been given us by Mosiah, our last king;

and it has been acknowledged by this people; therefore this people must abide by the law.

15 And it came to pass that they took him; and his name was Nehor;

and they carried him upon the top of the hill Manti, and there he was caused,

or rather did acknowledge, between the heavens and the earth,

that what he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God;

and there he suffered an ignominious death.

[krose]

How about we actually put death people that have killed other people or raped kids? All I am saying is lets do what justice demands. I think you missed my point. Case in point is what happened recently when a ceratin terrorist killed 13 people. Lets call it what it is and deal with it in an appropriate matter. That is what "less PC" means. I love how you like to go to the extremes.

It's not "PC" to avoid using inflammatory labels before the facts of a case are even in.

I disagree with this. If people knew they were not going to die there would more than likely be more killings as there would be less "harsh" consiquences. Can either of us prove our points? No. We just see things differently.

Easy to prove, actually. Just compare the murder rates in US states that execute versus those that do not. Are they measurably higher in those that do not? I'll answer that for you... NO. In 2008, the murder rate in states that with the death penalty averaged 5.2 per 100,000. In states that do not have the penalty, the rate averaged 3.3.

[Jeff K.]

As you stated, the scriptures and interpretation thereof fall on both sides of the discussion.

Whether it be to spare Cain (whose curse of life may actually be worse than the sucrease of death) or the complete destruction of an entire people in Sodom and Gomorrah.

And forgiveness of the executioners does not necessarily mean absolution without punishment.

We know scripturally even post atonement that execution was allowed and not uncommonly called upon, and without condemnation from God.

Jeff K. I believe I stated that the expense of "Death Row" was the appeals, etc. It doesn't matter. Being sentenced to life w/o parol is cheaper, by far, than death row.

PLUS, the hundreds of millions of dollars could have been put to better use actually preventing murder. Education, food, therapy, cash-for-guns programs, billboards and ad campaigns would be a much better use of the money and do a lot more good in the world. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

The thing is, no other area put that kind of money into a prevention campaign so there are no good comparisons out there. At least none that I'm aware of.

It does matter since the question of the appeals process to keep someone alive is distinct from the process to putting someone to death. Now one could argue the people aren't worth the cost, or that a slam dunk should not have so many appeals, this would of course cut the cost greatly.

I also believe we put millions of more dollars, no billions into prevention with food stamps, welfare, jobs, and so on, and yet we still have the present problem of many murders. We have been spending much much more on prevention than the death penalty, throwing more money down that hole will not, I believe, fill it up. We have spend a pound of prevention, and in costs, the death penalty is but an ounce of cure. I think the problem with the argument is that we presume nothing is being done on the other end, which of course is not true. We spend more by factors of 10 on prevention.

[Jeff K.]

Easy to prove, actually. Just compare the murder rates in US states that execute versus those that do not. Are they measurably higher in those that do not? I'll answer that for you... NO. In 2008, the murder rate in states that with the death penalty averaged 5.2 per 100,000. In states that do not have the penalty, the rate averaged 3.3.

Did you take out other factors to come to those numbers? Or do you indicate that the states are all exactly the same as to make a measureable effect of the death penalty?

[Vindicator]

Two things: First as long as the cancer is alive it has the possibility to get out and repeat the heinous acts

Second locked in prison society is forced to share its resources with the ones who would destroy even the society itself.

Capital punishment assures that the one committing the aborhant crimes will not repeat those crimes nor teach them (infect) someone else. The resources of a society represent the efforts of its members and should not be forced to share with someone who would destroy that society.

Cha Ching!!!

Johnny what has our contestant won?

[mercyngrace]

Two things: First as long as the cancer is alive it has the possibility to get out and repeat the heinous acts

Second locked in prison society is forced to share its resources with the ones who would destroy even the society itself.

Capital punishment assures that the one committing the aborhant crimes will not repeat those crimes nor teach them (infect) someone else. The resources of a society represent the efforts of its members and should not be forced to share with someone who would destroy that society.

Where does our doctrine teach that we aren't to care for our enemies?

Segregation occurs in the prison population which quarantines the "cancer" while still allowing the murderer to repent should his heart be turned.

[krose]

Why not? Consistency would argue that is just what you should do. After all what gives you the right to take a life you can not create?

I already specified true self-defense as an exception. But I still value human life; I just value one life above another where both cannot be saved.

In the rare case where the loss of one life is unavoidable, I prefer it be an attacker rather than an innocent victim. If some people would rather die than have another's life on their consciences, that's their right. I don't share that desire.

[Jeff K.]

Where does our doctrine teach that we aren't to care for our enemies?

Segregation occurs in the prison population which quarantines the "cancer" while still allowing the murderer to repent should his heart be turned.

Actually prison hardens the cancer, makes it more dangerous. Prison is the university school of crminality. They have the worst teaching the their trade to the newcomers.