Capital Punishment

[WalkerW]

Jeff,

I can see Gen 9:6 as justification for supporting the death penalty but the Mosaic law was fulfilled in Christ. Furthermore, if we expect to live in the CK, we must be able to abide the celestial law. Is retribution the higher law or forgiveness?

Gen. 9:6 is pre-Mosaic Law. This was the days of Noah. Moses wasn't until Exodus.

[BCSpace]

Jeff,

I can see Gen 9:6 as justification for supporting the death penalty but the Mosaic law was fulfilled in Christ. Furthermore, if we expect to live in the CK, we must be able to abide the celestial law. Is retribution the higher law or forgiveness?

Gen. 9:6 is pre-Mosaic Law. This was the days of Noah. Moses wasn't until Exodus.

That's right. Prior to Moses, gospel law applied. D&C 42:18-19 reaffirms the command to execute capital punishment.

[HMX-1]

With the coverage of tonight's execution of the Beltway sniper, John Allen Muhammad, I was wondering about the church's position on capital punishment. Lds.org describes the church's position in this way:

Given that this statement allows for a variety of views, I was wondering how some of you feel about the death penalty. The poll won't be public but if you don't mind explaining your position, I'd be interested in reading it.

Thanks.

Observing only...

[divinenature]

If God wants certain people dead, he should come and do it himself, instead of relying on us to kill each other on his behalf. It's asking too much to expect any of us to perform such killings without being adversely affected.

Amen.

[krose]

As for "many societies" protecting themselves "very well," this would depend on perspective.

Please explain.

[WalkerW]

Amen.

I'm not big on telling God how He should run things.

[WalkerW]

Please explain.

I just think it is perspective. I hear similar arguments when it comes to economic strategies: "Well, so-and-so country practices economic policy X and they seem fine." You would have to give specifics.

But I actually don't care for you to provide specifics. I was merely stating that this would depend on perspective. It isn't something worth arguing about.

[krose]

WalkerW:

I notice you chose to disregard my earlier question. Do you believe people have a moral right -- based on a majority vote -- to put to death one of their fellow humans, for whatever reason they might decide is appropriate?

[WalkerW]

Krose,

I think the root of our disagreement would be here:

You

You also don't have the right to kill me because you disapprove of something I've done, even if you get a majority of our fellow citizens to agree with you. You don't control my right to live because you are not the source of that right.

Me

I also believe freedom and rights are maintained by responsible choices. When you are irresponsible in your decisions, certain freedoms and rights are stripped from you. The more severe the irresponsibility, the more severe the punishment

Basically, is a right a right no matter what or can rights be given up? Is freedom just the ability to do whatever we want or is freedom the ability to act in a responsible manner in order to operate within society?

That, I feel, is what it will boil down to.

[LDSToronto]

My opinion:

Capital punishment is wrong because it seeks vengeance, restores nothing, and it is contrary to the Atonement. Mosaic and pre-Mosaic law is either followed or not; one can't pick and chose. If we use that as the basis for executing criminals, then let's stone adulterers too. If capital punishment were meted out by a true prophet of God who could verify that each and every instance was God's will, then it would merely sicken me, but I would support it faithfully. Since this is not the case, my feeling is that capital punishment is murder and those who carry it out and those who support it will have to answer for their sins and will have no place in the Celestial Kingdom.

H.

[WalkerW]

WalkerW:

I notice you chose to disregard my earlier question. Do you believe people have a moral right -- based on a majority vote -- to put to death one of their fellow humans, for whatever reason they might decide is appropriate?

Original question:

You believe a group of humans has the moral right to get together and vote to kill any of our fellow humans they wish?

I didn't answer this because it was inflammatory. "People can just get together and vote to kill someone???" Uh, no. This is truly straining the discussion and idea of capital punishment beyond recognition. Why? Because leaves the context of punishment.

Execution is deemed a punishment for the violation of a particular law (in this case, murder) by the society. If a member of the society violates a law which calls for death as determined by the society, then yes, they should be put to death.

[BCSpace]

Capital punishment is wrong because it seeks vengeance, restores nothing, and it is contrary to the Atonement. Mosaic and pre-Mosaic law is either followed or not; one can't pick and chose. If we use that as the basis for executing criminals, then let's stone adulterers too. If capital punishment were meted out by a true prophet of God who could verify that each and every instance was God's will, then it would merely sicken me, but I would support it faithfully. Since this is not the case, my feeling is that capital punishment is murder and those who carry it out and those who support it will have to answer for their sins and will have no place in the Celestial Kingdom.

You don't accept the scriptures? Capital punishment is part of the Gospel law as that is what was in effect prior to Moses. Therefore, it remains when the law of Moses is fulfilled.

[WalkerW]

My opinion:

Capital punishment is wrong because it seeks vengeance

Or order

contrary to the Atonement

Considering justice is a huge part of the Plan of Salvation, I can't see accountability and punishment being contrary to the Atonement.

Mosaic and pre-Mosaic law is either followed or not; one can't pick and chose. If we use that as the basis for executing criminals, then let's stone adulterers too.

This goes both ways. So you suggest that we don't follow pre-Mosaic law aka the gospel? Don't pick and choose now.

then it would merely sicken me

This seems to be the real problem.

my feeling is that capital punishment is murder and those who carry it out and those who support it will have to answer for their sins and will have no place in the Celestial Kingdom.

Sucks for the majority of those in scripture. When you are in the Celestial Kingdom, let Moses, Joseph Smith, and I know how it is as we are burning in hell.

[krose]

I also believe freedom and rights are maintained by responsible choices. When you are irresponsible in your decisions, certain freedoms and rights are stripped from you. The more severe the irresponsibility, the more severe the punishment

I agree with this. But I would qualify that there are limits to the severity of our punishments. We do not have the right to treat offenders cruelly and inhumanely (for example, to skin a person alive, even if he skinned his victim alive), and we don't have the right to kill.

Basically, is a right a right no matter what or can rights be given up? Is freedom just the ability to do whatever we want or is freedom the ability to act in a responsible manner in order to operate within society?

Of course rights and freedoms must be taken away in certain cases. I just don't see the right to live as one that we can take away.

[WalkerW]

I agree with this. But I would qualify that there are limits to the severity of our punishments. We do not have the right to treat offenders cruelly and inhumanely (for example, to skin a person alive, even if he skinned his victim alive), and we don't have the right to kill.

Of course rights and freedoms must be taken away in certain cases. I just don't see the right to live as one that we can take away.

Common ground is good.

I am curious, though: Are you alright with killing in self-defense?

[krose]

Common ground is good.

I am curious, though: Are you alright with killing in self-defense?

I don't know that I would go so far as to say "all right," because I don't think I would ever really be okay if I had to kill to protect my life or that of a loved one. I'm afraid the question of whether it could have been avoided somehow would haunt me forever.

But yes, in theory one should not have to sacrifice one's own life just to avoid taking the life of an attacker. In actual practice, I doubt that self-defense very often requires killing.

[Mordecai]

It's simple. Society lacks the moral right to take the life of one of its citizens. Society does not grant life, so it has no right to take life. If God granted life, only God has the right to end it (and not any of the many people who claim to speak and act for God).

While society per se doesn't have an inherent right to put someone to death, I think there is a case to be made that Justice demands it. While fallen man obviously has difficulty living up to Justice, in its ideal state, I think that aspiring to it via reason and law and keeping the power of life and death out of the hands of individuals is more than acceptable. In fact, I recommend it.

The death penalty, as a deterrent, ought to be used against murder in particular. Seeing as no individual has the right to take a life, as a society, we have an obligation to prevent it. My view is that people ought to be afraid to murder, so it is my view that death ought to be advertised as the penalty. Carrying it out in many if not most circumstances of cold-blooded murder a short time after high-profile crimes are committed would certainly frighten those who are planning to take a life. Seeing as there are many people who commit cold-blooded murder, I say it's necessary to scare them away from doing so through laws, penalties for those laws and informing them and showing them that the penalty is real.

[Jerubaal]

I've heard people say that capital punishment does not discourage or prevent crime.

I've heard the same, and it seems quite possibly true, though I haven't personally seen any hard statistics on it. Still , I personally support the death penalty. Not so much for theological reasons (though I believe the scriptures support the practice) but because I believe there is some sort of abstract ideal of justice that is met when certain exceptionally heinous crimes are punished with death.

[Mordecai]

I've heard the same, and it seems quite possibly true, though I haven't personally seen any hard statistics on it. Still , I personally support the death penalty. Not so much for theological reasons (though I believe the scriptures support the practice) but because I believe there is some sort of abstract ideal of justice that is met when certain exceptionally heinous crimes are punished with death.

Project Exile was a campaign to scare gang members away from gun use. They had billboards and other means of informing the gun-using criminals that they would be sent to federal prison, away from all of their criminal friends. It appears that fear of a stiff penalty can work wonders:

Project Exile was indeed an effective deterrent as shown by a few statistics. In 1997, prior to the

implementation of Project Exile, approximately 85 percent of Richmond

[WalkerW]

But yes, in theory one should not have to sacrifice one's own life just to avoid taking the life of an attacker. In actual practice, I doubt that self-defense very often requires killing.

I'm glad to see you are fairly consistent across the board with the taking of life. But allow me to rephrase the question: would the victim be morally justified in taking the life of their attacker or would-be assassin in order to protect themselves or loved ones?

[mercyngrace]

Gen. 9:6 is pre-Mosaic Law. This was the days of Noah. Moses wasn't until Exodus.

Yes... I know. Which is why I wrote that I COULD see THAT verse as justification but not the Mosaic verses calling for capital punishment....

edit: Wanted to add that Jeff K. mentioned Gen 9:6 and the ten commandments in the same breath and I responded differentiating between pre-Mosaic and Mosaic law. If you go back and read his comment you'll see that.

[mercyngrace]

Observing only...

Me, too ;-)

[mercyngrace]

That's right. Prior to Moses, gospel law applied. D&C 42:18-19 reaffirms the command to execute capital punishment.

See my comment to WalkerW. My response to Jeff - who referenced BOTH Gen 9:6 AND the Ten Commandments - was that Gen 9:6 could justify the capital punishment precisely because it wasn't Mosaic.

D&C 42 is the "law of the church". Unrepentant sinners are "cast out" i.e. ex-communicated. Murderers "die" i.e. lose their inheritance entirely per D&C 132. Notice in 132:19 the warning that murder is the one sin that will revoke your covenants. This is consistent with the fact that telestial beings (among whom are murderers) don't seem to have eternal progression (D&C 76:112) and the parameters of church government established in D&C 134:

10 We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

As with regards to Capital Punishment, I am all for it. Consider what happened in the BoM. Captain Moroni had many of the "kingmen" put to death for a lot less then we do today. Infact I think that we are to PC about it. Any way that is my 2 cents.

[krose]

I'm glad to see you are fairly consistent across the board with the taking of life. But allow me to rephrase the question: would the victim be morally justified in taking the life of their attacker or would-be assassin in order to protect themselves or loved ones?

What, preemptively, Minority Report style? Or do you mean killing the attacker after the attack failed? In either of those cases, no.

I believe a self-defense killing is only justifiable in the heat of an attack, when the choice is either one life or the other.

I'm certainly not in favor of lying down and accepting death rather than fighting back, Anti-Nephi-Lehi style.