Capital Punishment

[krose]

I don't think the deterrent argument has a leg to stand on, but even if the death penalty were shown to be a clear deterrent, I would still oppose it on moral grounds.

[Jeff K.]

I respect that stance. Though I don't agree with it.

[jkfrost]

The Higher law and coals of fire -seems almost vengeful:

Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things,

but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath:

for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink:

for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

[thesometimesaint]

mercyngrace:

I'm not generally in support of Capital Punishment. It has become all too arbitrary and capricious to defend generally. But I do see the need for it in certain rare circumstances. Mass or serial murder, direct armed attacks on the state or nation. That type of thing.

[mercyngrace]

Actually prison hardens the cancer, makes it more dangerous. Prison is the university school of crminality. They have the worst teaching the their trade to the newcomers.

Jeff,

You've been in prison?

I know several people for whom prison was a wake up call. One man I met back in September discovered the gospel in prison, was released, went to school and is now a minister.

[BCSpace]

Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things,

but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath:

for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink:

for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

I have no problem giving a convicted murderer a last meal before his or her execution.

[mercyngrace]

mercyngrace:

I'm not generally in support of Capital Punishment. It has become all too arbitrary and capricious to defend generally. But I do see the need for it in certain rare circumstances. Mass or serial murder, direct armed attacks on the state or nation. That type of thing.

I can respect that, SS. It's increasingly my opinion that we shouldn't become killers ourselves to exact punishment. Let us be Christlike in our dealings with even the most fallen among us. In doing such, we may very well win their hearts and souls.

Also, I suspect that most people commenting on this thread have never set foot inside a prison or have never had to decide whether another man should be incarcerated, live, or die. Those experiences affect you deeply.

[Jeff K.]

Jeff,

You've been in prison?

I know several people for whom prison was a wake up call. One man I met back in September discovered the gospel in prison, was released, went to school and is now a minister.

I know several on parole and what they learn is not necessarily about the straight and narrow. Their stories were harrowing, and they came out learning how to be even better criminals than when they went in. Luckily two rejected it, I know of more than a few more that sharpened their new skills of which some ended up back in prison.

I don't need to be in prison when such first hand accounts are available to me.

[Redefined]

I know several on parole and what they learn is not necessarily about the straight and narrow. Their stories were harrowing, and they came out learning how to be even better criminals than when they went in. Luckily two rejected it, I know of more than a few more that sharpened their new skills of which some ended up back in prison.

I don't need to be in prison when such first hand accounts are available to me.

Is the system working then?

[Mordecai]

Then the USA should have the lowest murder rate in the world, or at least much lower than countries that do not execute.

The fact is that people rarely consider the consequences of getting caught before committing murder.

That's a fact, huh? You commit a few murders or are you a witness of criminal thoughts? Because I don't think that's a fact at all. I'm pretty sure people think all the time about not getting caught. If you publicize people getting caught and subsequently put to death, I think it's a fact that people would be afraid of committing those crimes.

[jkfrost]

I have no problem giving a convicted murderer a last meal before his or her execution.

wow heaping coal and an execution all in one breath.

It depends on the crime and the motive.

What are your thoughts:

Someone accidentally hitting someone on the road at night gets put in jail for man slaughter

as opposed to a child molester killing his victim.

Should have differing penalties.

I have heard that Capital Punishment is a great deterrent in repeat offenders.

[Jeff K.]

Is the system working then?

Catch and release? No, not very well.

[mercyngrace]

Luckily two rejected it, I know of more than a few more that sharpened their new skills of which some ended up back in prison.

"Luckily"? Or maybe free agency still exists in prison and men can be saved.

You just provided two exceptions to your own generalization.

[Jeff K.]

Then the USA should have the lowest murder rate in the world, or at least much lower than countries that do not execute.

The fact is that people rarely consider the consequences of getting caught before committing murder.

Few societies are as heterogenious as the US.

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K.:

Actually murder is predominately a one time event.

[BCSpace]

Then the USA should have the lowest murder rate in the world, or at least much lower than countries that do not execute.

Why?

It depends on the crime and the motive.

What are your thoughts:

Someone accidentally hitting someone on the road at night gets put in jail for man slaughter

as opposed to a child molester killing his victim.

Should have differing penalties.

Deliberate and unjustified killing is murder. I don't define some negligence or even some criminal negligence as murder. However, I wouldn't be very opposed to capital punishment for the death of someone as a result of being drunk or high such as in an auto accident. I don't believe that being convicted of murder in a trial necessarily means that it is murder in the eyes of the Lord.

I have heard that Capital Punishment is a great deterrent in repeat offenders

I've heard the same.

[mercyngrace]

Deliberate and unjustified killing is murder.

How is this different than abortion?

[Jeff K.]

Jeff K.:

Actually murder is predominately a one time event.

Not necessarily.

Released rapists were 10.5 times more likely than nonrapists to be rearrested for rape, and released murderers were about 5 times more likely than other offenders to be rearrested for homicide. An estimated 6.6% of released murderers were rearrested for homicide.

Recidivism statistitcs

[BCSpace]

Deliberate and unjustified killing is murder.

How is this different than abortion?

If you say "abortion as a general method of birth control" there is no difference at all in my mind. However, while I have determined for myself when the spirit enters the body or when the fetus is a "man" according to scriptural definition, the Church has not. Hence the slight differentiation in the Church's position (like unto murder). My position is quite nuanced, set to match the Church's position as close as I can despite there being no doctrine on when the spirit enters the body, and I believe I have resolved the "rape, incest, life of the mother" exceptions in terms of agency.

[thesometimesaint]

Jeff K:

If we're talking about murderers your stats bear me out that 6.6% is a small minority of 100%. The US has the highest incarceration rates and absolute numbers of any country on earth. We also have the Death Penalty, and many equally advanced countries do not. They have lower crime rates than we do.

I have no love for the murderer, but killing them probably isn't the most effective way of decreasing the murder rates.

[jkfrost]

Jeff K:

If we're talking about murderers your stats bear me out that 6.6% is a small minority of 100%. The US has the highest incarceration rates and absolute numbers of any country on earth. We also have the Death Penalty, and many equally advanced countries do not. They have lower crime rates than we do.

I have no love for the murderer, but killing them probably isn't the most effective way of decreasing the murder rates.

although it will eliminate any repeat offense.

same goes for cutting off stuff.

[BCSpace]

If we're talking about murderers your stats bear me out that 6.6% is a small minority of 100%. The US has the highest incarceration rates and absolute numbers of any country on earth. We also have the Death Penalty, and many equally advanced countries do not. They have lower crime rates than we do.

Are murderers not incarcerated in those countries? That argument also seems to be an error in correlation beccause it doesn't take social factors into consideration such as homogeneity and culture.

I have no love for the murderer, but killing them probably isn't the most effective way of decreasing the murder rates.

In the gospel sense, how good a deterrent it is doesn't matter. However, since the death penalty is not applied in most cases here, one has no grounds on which to argue the effectiveness of it as a deterrent.

[thesometimesaint]

jkfrost:

Maybe. But at what cost? Just speaking of money. It takes a million dollars to put some to death in this country, and about $40,000/yr to keep them in prison.

Being barbaric seldom if ever results in someone else being less barbaric.

[jkfrost]

jkfrost:

Maybe. But at what cost? Just speaking of money. It takes a million dollars to put some to death in this country, and about $40,000/yr to keep them in prison.

Being barbaric seldom if ever results in someone else being less barbaric.

That can be fixed. for only $49.95

I here you can get some do it yourself kits.

[mercyngrace]

If you say "abortion as a general method of birth control" there is no difference at all in my mind. However, while I have determined for myself when the spirit enters the body or when the fetus is a "man" according to scriptural definition, the Church has not. Hence the slight differentiation in the Church's position (like unto murder). My position is quite nuanced, set to match the Church's position as close as I can despite there being no doctrine on when the spirit enters the body, and I believe I have resolved the "rape, incest, life of the mother" exceptions in terms of agency.

Even in the cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother - the cessation of life is deliberate and unjustified. That's not to say that I don't understand why those exceptions exist and appreciate the complex nature of those awful situations.

But yes, I was generally referring to abortion as birth control. Do we distinguish that act as murderous?

IOW, if a woman has an abortion simply because she doesn't feel like being pregnant and another woman commits infanticide of her 6 month old. Is the second precluded from exaltation while the first is not?

This probably fits better on the Forgiving Murderer thread - but there are political ramifications also. One of those women might be put to death, the other becomes a poster child for a movement. Both could repent and be saved.