Capital Punishment

[mercyngrace]

I am not a Mormon or a Christian and I wholeheartedly support killing such a murderer. Why?

Because of a teaching from the Talmud which has been proven true again and again:

Kind Regards,

Thorkyll

Ths spare the rod mentality is accepted by Christians also, Thorkyll. However, we aren't talking about releasing these people of consequences, if we were then the teaching you quoted would be applicable. There is not much compassionate about living out your natural life behind bars, especially in the maximum security facilities where most murdererd are assigned.

[Thorkyll]

Ths spare the rod mentality is accepted by Christians also, Thorkyll. However, we aren't talking about releasing these people of consequences, if we were then the teaching you quoted would be applicable. There is not much compassionate about living out your natural life behind bars, especially in the maximum security facilities where most murdererd are assigned.

I don't understand. Why would you want to keep him in a room for the rest of his life when you can just kill him and get it over with?

These people have to be fed, clothed, looked after by physicians, guarded, etc....that's an awful waste of limited resources just to keep a dead man alive in a room.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't understand. Why would you want to keep him in a room for the rest of his life when you can just kill him and get it over with?

These people have to be fed, clothed, looked after by physicians, guarded, etc....that's an awful waste of limited resources just to keep a dead man alive in a room.

Not only this but we would be justified to do kill him.

[AddamS]

Government has a duty to protect its citizens, and that sometimes requires killing. Government also has a duty to be just, and that also sometimes requires killing.

This coming form the guy complaining about big government in the SSM thread? We simply disagree on this one.

Works as an argument that no law should be enforced. Unfortunately we are mortal and must act despite the chance of making a mistake.

I know you are big on extremist arguments but this takes the cake. Nobody is talking about enforcing laws. We're talking about the punishments being doled out for breaking law.

Reform the system. If murderers recevied only one automatic appeal/review of their case and were executed within one year of a conviction it would not be more expensive than keeping them as a ward of the state for life.

Great, we'll have more innocent people murdered by way of your tax dollars. Wonderful solution. People are granted pardon based on new technology on an almost daily basis. Do you really want to speed up the process and not give these indiviuals a chance to get cleared? the 'if you want to make an omelet' argument is dispicable at best when you are determining the fate of human life.

Exactly - it is more merciful than perpetual imprisonment.

Wow. Way to spin. Do you work in politics or just do a lot of Dungeon Mastering?

[Thorkyll]

Not only this but we would be justified to do kill him.

Yes, and what if some people who have no food or shelter and are desperate suddenly get the idea in their heads that they might as well just kill someone and be guaranteed food and shelter for the rest of their lives? These things do happpen.

[Jason]

This coming form the guy complaining about big government in the SSM thread? We simply disagree on this one.

There are certain obligations that government should fulfill. The fact that we have a government that tries to do much more than it should is perhaps one reason why the death penalty in the U.S. is as mismanaged as it is. It is not an effective argument that we should have anarchy.

I know you are big on extremist arguments but this takes the cake. Nobody is talking about enforcing laws. We're talking about the punishments being doled out for breaking law.

So it's not the law that needs to be perfect, but the punishment?

I don't see why that makes much of a difference.

Great, we'll have more innocent people murdered by way of your tax dollars. Wonderful solution. People are granted pardon based on new technology on an almost daily basis. Do you really want to speed up the process and not give these indiviuals a chance to get cleared? the 'if you want to make an omelet' argument is dispicable at best when you are determining the fate of human life.

Yes, I want to speed up the process and possibly risk executing some innocent people in exchange for making the death penalty an effective deterrent and sparing society the costs of supporting and confining people who can never rejoin said society.

It's the same logic that makes me want to have speed limits of 65 on the freeway instead of 25. Yes, it means more people will die.

Wow. Way to spin. Do you work in politics or just do a lot of Dungeon Mastering?

You are the one who claimed you would prefer death to life imprisonment.

I don't support the death penalty because of vengeance - I don't want to cause unnecessary pain, and killing them outright may well be more merciful than keeping them confined for the rest of their lives.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Yes, and what if some people who have no food or shelter and are desperate suddenly get the idea in their heads that they might as well just kill someone and be guaranteed food and shelter for the rest of their lives? These things do happpen.

I hope then for their sake they don't try it on my house.

[Mordecai]

Great, we'll have more innocent people murdered by way of your tax dollars.

Who murdered them? The judge? The jury? The people that wrote the laws? The prosecution? The inept defense attorneys? Maybe car manufacturers that don't have the best built cars (although they may meet federal regulations) are also murderers for car accidents. Maybe legislators are murderers for allowing people to drive at all, because that will inevitably result in innocent deaths.

[mercyngrace]

I don't understand. Why would you want to keep him in a room for the rest of his life when you can just kill him and get it over with?

These people have to be fed, clothed, looked after by physicians, guarded, etc....that's an awful waste of limited resources just to keep a dead man alive in a room.

There are a few reasons but I think the most profound is because of what killing him does to us.

[Thorkyll]

There are a few reasons but I think the most profound is because of what killing him does to us.

What does killing a murderer do to us?

Are you suggesting that I am a bad person or in any way less moral because I want murderers to be executed?

[Jeff K.]

I don't believe killing has too much of an impact, but I do think why we kill does.

We do not do it because it is cheaper, but because we feel it is the right thing to do. And that is how I look at it. Cautiously, but as the right thing that must be done.

[LeSellers]

There are a few reasons but I think the most profound is because of what killing him does to us.

Okeh, I'll bite.

What does killing him do to us?

Lehi

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Okeh, I'll bite.

What does killing him do to us?

Lehi

I content that it prevents more BS from happening. Some murderers get released and kill again.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't believe killing has too much of an impact, but I do think why we kill does.

We do not do it because it is cheaper, but because we feel it is the right thing to do. And that is how I look at it. Cautiously, but as the right thing that must be done.

This is a similar point to what I made earlier in this thread. THat is we do it because it is a justifiable thing to do and we believe it to be the right thing to do to answer the demands for justice.

[AddamS]

All:

These are easy arguments to make when you're not the innocent man or woman sitting on death row for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

People are cleared of death penalty charges all of the time. It is inevitable that some innocent people with bad public defense lawyers or extenuating circumstances are killed. This isn't justice. It is murder. And you and I pay for it with more than tax dollars.

Are any of you so noble that you would you be willing to be executed in order to keep capital punishment in place?

[AddamS]

There are certain obligations that government should fulfill. The fact that we have a government that tries to do much more than it should is perhaps one reason why the death penalty in the U.S. is as mismanaged as it is. It is not an effective argument that we should have anarchy.

Who said anything about "anarchy"? I'm sorry, but you're beyond reason.

[Mordecai]

Are any of you so noble that you would you be willing to be executed in order to keep capital punishment in place?

I'm willing to risk being put in prison to have the penalty of going to prison in place. I'm also willing to risk being put to death, obviously. Similarly, I'm willing to risk dying in a car accident, when I drive.

Also, again, I ask, who is murdering a person who gets the death penalty? The judge, the jury, the lawyers, those how made the law, the Jews for influencing American society with the Bible, me for arguing in favor the death penalty, etc.? Who is the murderer?

[Jason]

The argument "if you kill them you'll be just as bad as they are" really doesn't hold any water.

[HMX-1]

I'm willing to risk being put in prison to have the penalty of going to prison in place. I'm also willing to risk being put to death, obviously. Similarly, I'm willing to risk dying in a car accident, when I drive.

Also, again, I ask, who is murdering a person who gets the death penalty? The judge, the jury, the lawyers, those how made the law, the Jews for influencing American society with the Bible, me for arguing in favor the death penalty, etc.? Who is the murderer?

Only if I murdered another Human being. But then Christ will be the final judge. In Operation "Just Cause" I was a wing man and the lead Cobra was shot down, I circled with one thing on my mind, get some payback. Was I murdering 20 or 30 bad guys? Or was I defending freedom and protecting lives knowing God was going to forgive me while in uniform or was I going to where ever, Hell? Perdition? I'll take my chances on that one.

[Jeff K.]

All:

These are easy arguments to make when you're not the innocent man or woman sitting on death row for being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

People are cleared of death penalty charges all of the time. It is inevitable that some innocent people with bad public defense lawyers or extenuating circumstances are killed. This isn't justice. It is murder. And you and I pay for it with more than tax dollars.

Are any of you so noble that you would you be willing to be executed in order to keep capital punishment in place?

Sure, I will.

Now doesn't that destroy your rhetoric? You presume we know less than you, or perhaps we are more "sociopathic". Fact is some of us know a great deal more than you, and understand the issues with greater clarity. High flying rhetoric hardly gives proof of justification, one way or the other.

Perhaps, if you wish, I can ask you to take the place of a family member that was killed by one of these people, just so that a "balance" is kept. Maybe you would feel equally good about it if a member of your family were killed in a horrid way. But then, isn't that silly rhetoric?

[mercyngrace]

Thorkyll,

No - believing capital punishment is a viable response to heinous crimes does not make you less moral. I didn't say that nor did I intend to leave that impression.

Lehi,

Think about the societal impact of legalizing abortion. Initially, legal abortions were billed as a way to avoid tragic back alley abortions or at home procedures with coat hangers. Now, it's a sacrosanct form of elective abortion - a woman's civil right. As a nation, we have become hardened to that little piece of human tissue. People joke about it. They discuss it in terms of dollars and cents. Comedian Daman Wayans mocks the whole issue as "Abortion Man".

IMO, legitimizing capital punishment encourages us to be hardened to the value of life and the power of redemption. Reread this thread. For some, capital punishment is about money. Others feel it should be applied more liberally, even to those with known pre-existing mental disease. Several commenters think it's jokeworthy. At least when Brigham Young described it, it was in terms of a making atonement.

[AddamS]

I'm willing to risk being put in prison to have the penalty of going to prison in place. I'm also willing to risk being put to death, obviously. Similarly, I'm willing to risk dying in a car accident, when I drive.

Easy to say now.

Also, again, I ask, who is murdering a person who gets the death penalty? The judge, the jury, the lawyers, those how made the law, the Jews for influencing American society with the Bible, me for arguing in favor the death penalty, etc.? Who is the murderer?

Everyone you mention and more, including me, share responsibility.

[AddamS]

Sure, I will.

Now doesn't that destroy your rhetoric? You presume we know less than you, or perhaps we are more "sociopathic". Fact is some of us know a great deal more than you, and understand the issues with greater clarity. High flying rhetoric hardly gives proof of justification, one way or the other.

Perhaps, if you wish, I can ask you to take the place of a family member that was killed by one of these people, just so that a "balance" is kept. Maybe you would feel equally good about it if a member of your family were killed in a horrid way. But then, isn't that silly rhetoric?

You're full of it and you know it. While there are certainly things I have no doubt you would die to defend I can guarantee when it comes down to it this isn't one of them.

[mercyngrace]

Still reading up on this stuff (not dithering, Jeff, just studying it out ;-)

The Book of Mormon teaches that murderers can be forgiven.

Alma 24:10

And I also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have committed, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son.

Alma 54:7

Yea, I would tell you these things if ye were capable of hearkening unto them; yea, I would tell you concerning that awful hell that awaits to receive such murderers as thou and thy brother have been, except ye repent and withdraw your murderous purposes, and return with your armies to your own lands.

In Alma 24, this is a reference to non-members, the Anti-Nephi-Lehies so maybe they get a pass for living without the law but the second scripture is a reference to Ammoron, an apostate.

2 Nephi 9:35 came up earlier in the thread.

Wo unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die.

The verses before and after this one follow a similar pattern.

31 And wo unto the deaf that will not hear; for they shall perish.

32 Wo unto the blind that will not see; for they shall perish also.

33 Wo unto the uncircumcised of heart, for a knowledge of their iniquities shall smite them at the last day.

34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

35 Wo unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die.

36 Wo unto them who commit whoredoms, for they shall be thrust down to hell.

37 Yea, wo unto those that worship idols, for the devil of all devils delighteth in them.

Notice that all of the assigned punishments refer to post-mortal or judgment day events. In addition, unlike the penalties for the Mosaic law, this verse does not say "shall be put to death" but "he shall die". (Same terminology used in D&C 42, also referenced earlier in the thread in support of capital punishment)

And then the kicker. After this list of sins and consequences, Nephi adds:

38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

Joseph Smith taught that murderers could be forgiven but not until they had paid the utmost farthing (Teachings p.187/193).

Does this cause anyone to rethink their position?

Edited to add: Why didn't God smite Cain? Or have Adam put him to death?

[Mordecai]

Easy to say now.

I suppose I could get in a car accident and hurt myself and regret driving, but that doesn't mean I should try to pass a law banning it so no one every gets hurt or killed.

Everyone you mention and more, including me, share responsibility.

Kinda like we share responsibility, when someone gets in a car accident. No one is a murderer in that case, either.