Capital Punishment

[Walden]

I disagree with this. If people knew they were not going to die there would more than likely be more killings as there would be less "harsh" consiquences. Can either of us prove our points? No. We just see things differently.

This makes no sense...people in Canada know they are not going to die if they murder someone (capital punishment was outlawed in Canada in 1976) and the statistics for murder in Canada are much less than they are here in the USA. This is true of the majority of industrialized nations that have banned capital punishment. This point that you have brought up is very easy to prove, just look at the statistics for murder in industrialized nations where capital punishment ahs been outlawed.

[BCSpace]

That can be fixed. for only $49.95

Got a few of those in the Scout closet you can use for free. Scaffold? I know some boys who need to work on their Pioneering merit badges....

But seriously, the costs can be much reduced. I hear in Virginia, as per the recent case, their appeals process is relatively quick. And I'm certainly not opposed to reforming the system say, in the matter of standards of evidence. Perhaps there ought to be a standard of evidence in which a person cannot receive the death penalty because the evidence was not as sure. But eliminating the death penalty is not the answer. The answer is expanding it to include all murder. Only then justice, the primary reason for the death penalty, will be served.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This makes no sense...people in Canada know they are not going to die if they murder someone (capital punishment was outlawed in Canada in 1976) and the statistics for murder in Canada are much less than they are here in the USA. This is true of the majority of industrialized nations that have banned capital punishment. This point that you have brought up is very easy to prove, just look at the statistics for murder in industrialized nations where capital punishment ahs been outlawed.

I still disagree. I can see a harsh punishment being a deterant for crimes commited. For instance how many theives would there be if when caught we cut of thier hands off? Some poeple steel out of conviences. If laws were that harsh or strick I probably never would have taken a chance as a kid and shoplifted some candy. It would not have been worth it to get cought. Is murder the same as steeling some candy? No, but we are talking about the principal here.

I want a refernce or a study done to see "that murders in Canada are less than in the USA". What are the factors? What did the study look at at. Do you have a reference? Maybe they have a really bad prison system that is dubbed "inhumain".

Any way capital punishment was not set up to "keep people from killing others". That is just one part that I see.

What gives a murderer the right to kill their victims? A life for a life. When they kill some one in cold blood that murderer has now affected a great deal of people. I see that capital punishment is a just punishment for those poeple that do commit the crime of murder. I would submit that child rapest should die as well.

[Walden]

I still disagree. I can see a harsh punishment being a deterant for crimes commited. For instance how many theives would there be if when caught we cut of thier hands off? Some poeple steel out of conviences. If laws were that harsh or strick I probably never would have taken a chance as a kid and shoplifted some candy. It would not have been worth it to get cought. Is murder the same as steeling some candy? No, but we are talking about the principal here.

I want a refernce or a study done to see "that murders in Canada are less than in the USA". What are the factors? What did the study look at at. Do you have a reference? Maybe they have a really bad prison system that is dubbed "inhumain".

Any way capital punishment was not set up to "keep people from killing others". That is just one part that I see.

What gives a murderer the right to kill their victims? A life for a life. When they kill some one in cold blood that murderer has now affected a great deal of people. I see that capital punishment is a just punishment for those poeple that do commit the crime of murder. I would submit that child rapest should die as well.

As for your the reference or study that you requested re: muder rates in Canada being less than the USA....Crime statistics, murder. It's common knowledge that the US has one of the highest murder rates in the industrialized world. Capital punishment has not affected our standing in that area.

As for your statement that "capital punishment was not set up to "keep people from killing others"." That is the exact point of my original post. Statistically, capital punishment does not seem to have much effect on the crime of murder. If capital punishment is not established to "keep people from killing others," than what is it's real purpose? I propose that it's real purpose is revenge, and I don't think our government should be in the revenge business

[Mordecai]

Capital punishment has not affected our standing in that area.

Do you have evidence that capital punishment doesn't function as a deterrent? I think that if done properly, it will work exactly as Project Exile worked. http://www.dcjs.virginia.gov/exile/ It reduced gun violence by 40% in one year. That is an enormous drop in violence. I suspect part of the reason for this is that they don't wait 50 years to impose the penalty, after going through appeal after appeal.

[Lightbearer]

This is what I think:

(D&C 42:19) "And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die."

I used to say (back when they had the electric chair as capital punishment in Florida) that I do not believe in the electric chair... I believe in the electric bench! I think life in prison could be even more of a cruel and unusual punishment than death, the only thing in it's favor (life in prison) is that it is reversible if later it is discovered that the person was innocent. I also believe a person is innocent, until they are proven guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. Which means it is cruel to find an innocent person guilty even if the penalty is life in prison! As far as it being a deterrent, it may not prevent other murderers from murdering, but if they are put to death then I can promise 100% that there are no repeat offenders!

[jkfrost]

Got a few of those in the Scout closet you can use for free. Scaffold? I know some boys who need to work on their Pioneering merit badges....

Granny knots do not always work well for these kind of jobs.

[Walden]

Do you have evidence that capital punishment doesn't function as a deterrent? I think that if done properly, it will work exactly as Project Exile worked. http://www.dcjs.virginia.gov/exile/ It reduced gun violence by 40% in one year. That is an enormous drop in violence. I suspect part of the reason for this is that they don't wait 50 years to impose the penalty, after going through appeal after appeal.

If you look at these statistics, you will clearly see that capital punishment is not a reliable deterrent...murder rates by state. Of the 25 states with the highest murder rate, 24 of them have capital punishment. Of the 25 states with the lowest murder rates, 13 of them do not have capital punishment. Likewise, you can see that the murder rates in death penalty states are actually higher than in non-death penalty states...more stats

Of course there are a number of factors that might be considered when analyzing the murder rates associated with certain states....socio-economic conditions, education levels, gun laws, mandatory sentencing laws, etc. However, the deterring effect of capital punsihment seems to be the least of these factors.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

As for your the reference or study that you requested re: muder rates in Canada being less than the USA....Crime statistics, murder. It's common knowledge that the US has one of the highest murder rates in the industrialized world. Capital punishment has not affected our standing in that area.

As for your statement that "capital punishment was not set up to "keep people from killing others"." That is the exact point of my original post. Statistically, capital punishment does not seem to have much effect on the crime of murder. If capital punishment is not established to "keep people from killing others," than what is it's real purpose? I propose that it's real purpose is revenge, and I don't think our government should be in the revenge business

Thank you for this. I do have to wonder because there are several states in the USA that have outlawed capital punishment. I wonder if we could look inside the US to see the difference from state to state.

Ok my curiosity has been put to rest, thanks for the other link.

I did realise 1/2 way through my post that you do have a point. Which is why I said what I said at the end. Good times.

I just heard this on the radio.Being PC is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end.

[BCSpace]

If you look at these statistics, you will clearly see that capital punishment is not a reliable deterrent...murder rates by state. Of the 25 states with the highest murder rate, 24 of them have capital punishment. Of the 25 states with the lowest murder rates, 13 of them do not have capital punishment. Likewise, you can see that the murder rates in death penalty states are actually higher than in non-death penalty states...more stats

Of course there are a number of factors that might be considered when analyzing the murder rates associated with certain states....socio-economic conditions, education levels, gun laws, mandatory sentencing laws, etc. However, the deterring effect of capital punsihment seems to be the least of these factors.

How do you know? What percentage of convicted murderers get the death penalty? Whithout that knowledge, the data you present is nothing more than propaganda. Also, on what gospel basis does the notion of deterrence override the command to apply captial punishment and notion of justice?

[jkfrost]

If you look at these statistics, you will clearly see that capital punishment is not a reliable deterrent...murder rates by state. Of the 25 states with the highest murder rate, 24 of them have capital punishment. Of the 25 states with the lowest murder rates, 13 of them do not have capital punishment. Likewise, you can see that the murder rates in death penalty states are actually higher than in non-death penalty states...more stats

Of course there are a number of factors that might be considered when analyzing the murder rates associated with certain states....socio-economic conditions, education levels, gun laws, mandatory sentencing laws, etc. However, the deterring effect of capital punsihment seems to be the least of these factors.

perhaps the system is too slow.

legal battles can be a fate worse then death, and can take a lot longer.

[mercyngrace]

I think the biggest issue for me is that we have to rely on a righteous government to prosecute fair trials, and enact responsible laws, acknowledge mitigating evidence, and execute capital punishment responsibly.

Just as the scriptures indicate that some societies applied this law appropriately (Alma 1), they also show that others did not.

There is a long list of innocents put to death by rightful (but wicked) governments:

Christ

Abinadi

Stephen

The converts of Alma and Amulek (Alma 14)

3 Nephi 6

And of course, we know that the legal system has its flaws since some men count on conflict and convictions for their livelihood (I'm not condemning the legal profession in its entirety - just noting the problem pointed out in the BOM)

Alma 10

Alma 14

3 Nephi 6

How can I verify that those in power to carry out capital punishment are doing so righteously? If I support this practice and our political officials are corrupt or the laws are bad, don't I have blood on my hands? In the scriptures, this law was given through prophets - not voted on by houses of congress - and I'm not sure I trust our government to apply the principle appropriately.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

How do you know? What percentage of convicted murderers get the death penalty? Whithout that knowledge, the data you present is nothing more than propaganda. Also, on what gospel basis does the notion of deterrence override the command to apply captial punishment and notion of justice?

Interesting. I think these points might have been what I was tyring to make. And I just could not formualte a sentance for them.

[William James]

I am LDS and support the death penalty, with the following caveats:

1. My reason for supporting the death penalty is independent of my belonging to the LDS faith.

2. The death penalty should be reserved for the most heinous and egregious crimes; murder alone, without significant aggravating circumstances, does not justify the death penalty. Such aggravating circumstances could include: (a) the murderer's state of mind; ( the position of the victim, i.e., was it a perfectly innocent three-year-old unable to defend himself; © the number of victims; (d) the manner in which the murder was carried out (I think a slow painful death is much worse than, say, just shooting someone in the head); (e) how badly the victim suffered before dying (i.e., if there was torture or violent rape in connection with the killing); (f) the degree to which the murderer suffered from any mental conditions (i.e., retardation); and (g) whether there were circumstances beyond the murderer's control which contributed to the murderer's acts in carrying out the crime (i.e., duress, prior assault by the victim, etc.)

3. Even where the crime is particularly heinous, I believe there should be room for avoidance of the death penalty where it appears that the convict has repented, or shows meaningful remorse, or has some reasonable hope of rehabilitation.

4. Because of the irreversible aspect of an execution, it should also be reserved in cases where there is virtually no doubt as to the guilt of the person to be executed. It appears to me that there have been more than a few cases in American history where innocent people were wrongly convicted of capital crimes and put to death. This should cause us to be extremely humbled and reserved in deciding to execute anyone.

Needless to say, if I ruled the world, the death penalty would not be unheard of, but executions would be rare.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think the biggest issue for me is that we have to rely on a righteous government to prosecute fair trials, and enact responsible laws, acknowledge mitigating evidence, and execute capital punishment responsibly.

Just as the scriptures indicate that some societies applied this law appropriately (Alma 1), they also show that others did not.

There is a long list of innocents put to death by rightful (but wicked) governments:

Christ

Abinadi

Stephen

The converts of Alma and Amulek (Alma 14)

3 Nephi 6

And of course, we know that the legal system has its flaws since some men count on conflict and convictions for their livelihood (I'm not condemning the legal profession in its entirety - just noting the problem pointed out in the BOM)

Alma 10

Alma 14

3 Nephi 6

How can I verify that those in power to carry out capital punishment are doing so righteously? If I support this practice and our political officials are corrupt or the laws are bad, don't I have blood on my hands? In the scriptures, this law was given through prophets - not voted on by houses of congress - and I'm not sure I trust our government to apply the principle appropriately.

You make an interesting point. From my perspective there are those that want to through out all of the good solely because they can find a bad example of capital punishment.

To your point You really can't know if some one is rightessoussly carring out capital punishment. WEll at least not every case. You might if your were a district attourny or something. But as jsut a normal citisen like me, you can't.

[mercyngrace]

I am LDS and support the death penalty, with the following caveats:

1. My reason for supporting the death penalty is independent of my belonging to the LDS faith.

2. The death penalty should be reserved for the most heinous and egregious crimes; murder alone, without significant aggravating circumstances, does not justify the death penalty. Such aggravating circumstances could include: (a) the murderer's state of mind; ( the position of the victim, i.e., was it a perfectly innocent three-year-old unable to defend himself; © the number of victims; (d) the manner in which the murder was carried out (I think a slow painful death is much worse than, say, just shooting someone in the head); (e) how badly the victim suffered before dying (i.e., if there was torture or violent rape in connection with the killing); (f) the degree to which the murderer suffered from any mental conditions (i.e., retardation); and (g) whether there were circumstances beyond the murderer's control which contributed to the murderer's acts in carrying out the crime (i.e., duress, prior assault by the victim, etc.)

3. Even where the crime is particularly heinous, I believe there should be room for avoidance of the death penalty where it appears that the convict has repented, or shows meaningful remorse, or has some reasonable hope of rehabilitation.

4. Because of the irreversible aspect of an execution, it should also be reserved in cases where there is virtually no doubt as to the guilt of the person to be executed. It appears to me that there have been more than a few cases in American history where innocent people were wrongly convicted of capital crimes and put to death. This should cause us to be extremely humbled and reserved in deciding to execute anyone.

Needless to say, if I ruled the world, the death penalty would not be unheard of, but executions would be rare.

Then the question becomes who decides what "meaningful remorse" is? Who decides what is heinous enough to warrant the death penalty? It's an impossible situation to navigate without righteous, inspired leadership. We end up trying to prevent the abuse of practices like capital punishment by enacting a hedge of laws, policies, or procedures. This leads to a one size fits all style justice that in the end fits no one. (For a good example, see recent writings by Justice David Souter who initially heralded the use of minimum sentences and now rejects them as a failure of justice.)

[Mordecai]

If you look at these statistics, you will clearly see that capital punishment is not a reliable deterrent...murder rates by state. Of the 25 states with the highest murder rate, 24 of them have capital punishment. Of the 25 states with the lowest murder rates, 13 of them do not have capital punishment. Likewise, you can see that the murder rates in death penalty states are actually higher than in non-death penalty states...more stats

Of course there are a number of factors that might be considered when analyzing the murder rates associated with certain states....socio-economic conditions, education levels, gun laws, mandatory sentencing laws, etc. However, the deterring effect of capital punsihment seems to be the least of these factors.

Murder rates compared from one state to another tell us little or nothing. Furthermore, the statistics provided are extremely vague and seem to me to be an attempt to hide evidence. We'd need a lot more detail and a lot more information to come to any conclusions. The question is, do murder rates increase or decrease based on people's belief that they will be put to death. If we were to take a state and implement a regularly imposed death penalty where people know that it is a regularly imposed penalty for murder, will that cause the murder rate to decrease? I think so.

Project Exile worked extremely well, because people knew of the penalty. It deterred them. Do you really think the death penalty is less frightening than being exiled to a federal prison? I don't. As far as I'm concerned, project exile is proof that harsh deterrents scare would-be criminals into changing their behavior. Is there a single reason why the death penalty would be less effective than exile in federal prisons?

[jkfrost]

Needless to say, if I ruled the world, the death penalty would not be unheard of, but executions would be rare.

You wish to rule the world?

Call me - let's talk... been wanting to get into the business

but my batteries keep running down on my wrist laser.

[Lightbearer]

I think the biggest issue for me is that we have to rely on a righteous government to prosecute fair trials, and enact responsible laws, acknowledge mitigating evidence, and execute capital punishment responsibly.

How can I verify that those in power to carry out capital punishment are doing so righteously? If I support this practice and our political officials are corrupt or the laws are bad, don't I have blood on my hands? In the scriptures, this law was given through prophets - not voted on by houses of congress - and I'm not sure I trust our government to apply the principle appropriately.

That is the problem, you either must believe in the system you have or you do not. I think this goes even further than capital punishment. Are our laws so corrupt that injustice is the rule? Which is worse depriving a man of his life or his liberty or property? That is probably why the Church encourages it's members to be active in the community, to serve on juries, to vote in elections, to lobby for just laws, to serve in offices of trust. If we allow the "gadianton robbers" to get above us in the government then our society is doomed, we must make our will known and try to influence others to righteousness. Not long ago I was called to jury duty but I was disqualified because I had too strong a belief in the death penalty. It gives one pause, but then if we do not have the jury system as we have what is the alternatives? A dictatorship? Anarchy? Dividing into tribes as did the Nephites just before Christ came to them? I would rather be judged by a jury than by a judge alone that may be even more biased than those on the jury. So we struggle along and hope for the best and try to make our voices heard and we try to find justice in an unjust world.

[jkfrost]

That is the problem, you either must believe in the system you have or you do not. I think this goes even further than capital punishment. Are our laws so corrupt that injustice is the rule? Which is worse depriving a man of his life or his liberty or property? That is probably why the Church encourages it's members to be active in the community, to serve on juries, to vote in elections, to lobby for just laws, to serve in offices of trust. If we allow the "gadianton robbers" to get above us in the government then our society is doomed, we must make our will known and try to influence others to righteousness. Not long ago I was called to jury duty but I was disqualified because I had too strong a belief in the death penalty. It gives one pause, but then if we do not have the jury system as we have what is the alternatives? A dictatorship? Anarchy? Dividing into tribes as did the Nephites just before Christ came to them? I would rather be judged by a jury than by a judge alone that may be even more biased than those on the jury. So we struggle along and hope for the best and try to make our voices heard and we try to find justice in an unjust world.

You have given us a great lesson in BOM d

[mercyngrace]

Lightbearer,

If a people are righteous the system is irrelevent. Conversely, if the people are unrighteous the system is irrelevant.

MnG

[LifeOnaPlate]

I'm personally not a huge fan of capital punishment but the poll is too black and white to be useful for me.

[Vindicator]

I have no problem giving a convicted murderer a last meal before his or her execution.

I have no problem going to a foreign country and Killing bad guys because I was taught that we are forgiven by the Lord for "killing in the Heat of Battle under orders" or perhaps its more like for some of the people here in the U.S. its just "out of sight, out of mind". Yet a bad guy murders in this country and all the bleeding hearts (political affiliations withheld, per forum rules) are the first to cry out against capital punishment and the death penalty, (no redundancy intended) and save the heathens that murdered innocent men, women and children. I say, and Eye for an Eye". Let justice be done!

[mercyngrace]

I have no problem going to a foreign country and Killing bad guys because I was taught that we are forgiven by the Lord for "killing in the Heat of Battle under orders" or perhaps its more like for some of the people here in the U.S. its just "out of sight, out of mind". Yet a bad guy murders in this country and all the bleeding hearts (political affiliations withheld, per forum rules) are the first to cry out against capital punishment and the death penalty, (no redundancy intended) and save the heathens that murdered innocent men, women and children. I say, and Eye for an Eye". Let justice be done!

Yeah! And darn that wimpy Nephi for having to be told 3 times that beheading people is a noble pursuit. How dare he thoughtfully and prayerfully consider the issue!!!

[BCSpace]

And darn that wimpy Nephi for having to be told 3 times that beheading people is a noble pursuit.

CFR