LDS: Is God Omniscient?

[smac97]

LDS: Is God Omniscient?

Yes.

3 questions.

1. God said Samson would nail the Philistines. Did God know Samson would give up the goods to Delilah?

I believe so.

2. God said he wished none would perish. Does God know who will be saved?

I believe so.

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

No.

God's awareness of what I will choose to do does not inhibit my ability to make that choice.

-Smac

[bluebell]

I look at this topic this way-

In certain situations, i can predict-or in other words i know-with almost 100% accuracy what my children are going to do. But it's obvious that that knowledge doesn't impact their free will at all. One is not connected to the other.

I see Heavenly Father's omniscience(sp?) in similar terms. Knowing what someone is going to do does not equal controlling what someone is going to do.

[Mudcat]

God's awareness of what I will choose to do does not inhibit my ability to make that choice.

-Smac

I look at this topic this way-

In certain situations, i can predict-or in other words i know-with almost 100% accuracy what my children are going to do. But it's obvious that that knowledge doesn't impact their free will at all. One is not connected to the other.

I see Heavenly Father's omniscience(sp?) in similar terms. Knowing what someone is going to do does not equal controlling what someone is going to do.

I agree with both of you in regards to this aspect of not being controlled.

The argument against the compatibility of omniscience and free will, has typically been that if God is aware of what I am going to do in the future, then I can not logically do anything else.

i.e. it's a rather mundane example, But if I were to decide that I was going to eat a Subway or Wendy's for lunch, and I decided to eat at Subway. Then for all practical purposes God has always known I was going to eat at Subway today and consequently whatever impact that lunch choice had in the grand scheme of things.

So since God knew where I was going to eat, did I really have any choice.... Could I really have eaten at Wendy's?

I would think I could have, but if I did, well God would have known that too. There is a bit of a logical contradiction in there that I just like to cognitively avoid or put on the shoulders of omnipotence.

I have thought about one thing. What if God was not only aware of the choice I made, and its impact on things, but also was aware of the choice I didn't make and what impact that would have had. Which would ultimately suggest he is keeping up with an infinite number of realities that could occur so that free will could be preserved without contradiction. I imagine there is a bit of friction in that concept too, though.

[jadams_4242]

I agree with both of you in regards to this aspect of not being controlled.

The argument against the compatibility of omniscience and free will, has typically been that if God is aware of what I am going to do in the future, then I can not logically do anything else.

i.e. it's a rather mundane example, But if I were to decide that I was going to eat a Subway or Wendy's for lunch, and I decided to eat at Subway. Then for all practical purposes God has always known I was going to eat at Subway today and consequently whatever impact that lunch choice had in the grand scheme of things.

So since God knew where I was going to eat, did I really have any choice.... Could I really have eaten at Wendy's?

I would think I could have, but if I did, well God would have known that too. There is a bit of a logical contradiction in there that I just like to cognitively avoid or put on the shoulders of omnipotence.

I have thought about one thing. What if God was not only aware of the choice I made, and its impact on things, but also was aware of the choice I didn't make and what impact that would have had. Which would ultimately suggest he is keeping up with an infinite number of realities that could occur so that free will could be preserved without contradiction. I imagine there is a bit of friction in that concept too, though.

God commanded adam and eve to NOT eat of the tree of knowledge to know good and evil; They did eat despite his command.

[Lightbearer]

3 questions.

1. God said Samson would nail the Philistines. Did God know Samson would give up the goods to Delilah?

Of course He knew it.

2. God said he wished none would perish. Does God know who will be saved?

Yes he does... that does not mean that He controls it or makes it occur. But His knowledge is infinite and therefore beyond our comprehension. It bothers some people that God could know all things, but to me it is a great comfort. If He did not know all things with a certainty then we could never have the assurance that His word will not fail.

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

No I do not. I know that God has given us agency or the freedom to choose without being forced one way or another. Yet He knows all things and there is not anything save He knows it. If God did not know all things how could prophecy be possible? Some say He knows us so well that He can deduce the choices we make and make an "educated guess." I could not believe in such a God. I believe He can "SEE" the things of the future because He is an infinite and eternal being with all power and all wisdom and all knowledge. If God did not know all things then there could arise some law or truth (which is unknown to Him) that could reverse our salvation or destroy immortality. The reason we cannot comprehend these ideas is that we have mortal minds and the veil is covering our understanding so that we cannot understand these things as yet. I quote the following as evidence of His omniscience:

(Abraham 2:8 ) "My name is Jehovah, and I know the end from the beginning; therefore my hand shall be over thee."

From this I understand that God is never in suspense or worrying about an outcome. That is the rest of Eternal Life, a rest from all cares and sorrows. Because those who know the end from the beginning need not worry. Also the following:

(1 Nephi 9:6) "But the Lord knoweth all things from the beginning; wherefore, he prepareth a way to accomplish all his works among the children of men; for behold, he hath all power unto the fulfilling of all his words. And thus it is. Amen."

Thus He is omnipotent as well as omniscient.

[CV75]

By this I mean, is God omniscient about an exalted child of his that becomes a God and the worlds they will create and be peopled by... and so on down the line?

If He wants to be, which would only be the case if it were consistent with His work and His glory.

[mfbukowski]

3 questions.

1. God said Samson would nail the Philistines. Did God know Samson would give up the goods to Delilah?

2. God said he wished none would perish. Does God know who will be saved?

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

KNOWING something will happen is different than MAKING it happen. If I throw a penny off a cliff, I know it will fall, but I did not create gravity. I did not make it fall.

[mfbukowski]

I have thought about one thing. What if God was not only aware of the choice I made, and its impact on things, but also was aware of the choice I didn't make and what impact that would have had. Which would ultimately suggest he is keeping up with an infinite number of realities that could occur so that free will could be preserved without contradiction. I imagine there is a bit of friction in that concept too, though.

I think you are right. In order to judge us, God must know what we did NOT choose to do. There can be no responsibility for action if all our actions are determined, so total predestination would make God unjust if he condemns anyone for what they could not have otherwise done.

[Jeff K.]

If no information if forthcoming, then I cannot say that God imposes himself on us to make decisions. One could claim the very idea of commandments is an imposition or control, those who make such a claim would also magnify it as a reason to shirk responsibility for one's own actions. I think such a view to be in error and to make the Atonement itself unenforceable as a mechanism to satisfy justice.

[mfbukowski]

To take this a bit further, I would ask how does God's omniscience as defined by LDS coincide with the concept of exaltation. By this I mean, is God omniscient about an exalted child of his that becomes a God and the worlds they will create and be peopled by... and so on down the line?

Yes. Parents should keep in touch with their adult children.

[ERayR]

So God is omniscient, but not omnipotent. Correct?

Just because he doesn't, doesn't mean he can't.

[BCSpace]

1. God said Samson would nail the Philistines. Did God know Samson would give up the goods to Delilah?

God knew to within a high degree of probability.

2. God said he wished none would perish. Does God know who will be saved?

He knows to within a high degree of probability, but ultimately, no. He does know exactly who would be saved now if it came to that, but the farther into the future, the less accurate He gets.

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

Yes.

[Cold Steel]

Yes, I think God's omniscient. He knows in advance what people are going to do, but He can't condemn, nor can He reward, without letting events play out. That's also part of His justice and it's one reason He has to give His children the same opportunities.

But how can He do that here, when some people are born into horrible conditions and they don't have the same opportunities? There are some Christians who believe that of two people born into good homes, raised in two excellent families, both being taught the same virtues in life, but one Christian and one Jewish ? that God will save the first but condemn the second to an endless hell. The problem here is that it violates the law of justice.

When Paul saw a bright light and heard a voice, why did he get the break? How about his friend Murry, who didn't see a light or hear a voice? He kept on persecuting the Christians. Does Murry go to hell while Paul goes to heaven? What happens at the judgment bar of God when Murry says, "Hey, if I'd seen a vision and heard a voice, I would have been a Christian, too!"

The LDS at least have the claim of premortality to fall back on. Does what we do in premortality have any bearing on the circumstances we're born into here? It makes sense if what we do here has a bearing on what we attain in the next world. In premortality we were viewing life as the next world. Why are some people seemingly born bad? Why do they get off on torturing kittens and other small animals?

God, really, knows everything. But he has to let us discover it ourselves. We also can't grow without going through it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Our choices are based on the qualities of our "I".

If "I" believe X is the best choice, then I will choose X.

If "I" believe Y is the best choice, then I will choose Y.

The "I" affects your decision... So much in fact that your "I" curbs every single decision you make.

Where do these choices find their roots? Who created the "I" that is you?

God did.

He knew that before he created your "I" in any specific way, that your custom "I" would result in different choices... God created you to make certain choices, because he knew how you would act based on your "I", before God created your "I".

God created you knowing that the way he would create you, would ultimately result in the choices you make.

So, no... free-will does not truly exist given the assumption that God has done it this way. Your choices are choices made because of the way God created you to begin with. This means that God does not truly want everyone to be saved either, because he would have created your "I" so that you would be saved, instead of creating unequal "I's" for us.

This means then that God chose to allow the starving kid in AFrica to be starving in the streets. That God created evil and it is part of his will and everything that happens in life is "Gods Fault" as ... well... he created us that way. Since God would be the only being that has real agency.

Were is Scottie and some of our other Athiests friends. I would agree with them if this is truley how God opperated.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

God creates us knowing that the way he creates us will specifically lead us to choices that will stray from the path of salvation, therefore God wants us to stray.

If God did not want us to go astray, he would not create us in a way he knew would lead us astray. But he has, so God intended us to.

I'm sorry if this gets jumbled... This is very hard to explain.

Now, if you bring in hypocritical and illogical concept of eternal progression... this all turns to dust. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all. I'm discussing eternal progression in the "Problem of Salvation" thread.

What is illogical is the idea that God is to blame for your actions or lack there of.

I reject this view of yours. The only thing we have to offer God is our own will. God will not make you do anything in this life.

Remember "Choose ye this day whom ye will servce". If we really have no say in the matter as you seem to say why are we told to choose?

A choice indicates free will.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

3 questions.

1. God said Samson would nail the Philistines. Did God know Samson would give up the goods to Delilah?

2. God said he wished none would perish. Does God know who will be saved?

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

I think God knows us so well that he likely can forsee were people will end up. I don't think God is a fortune teller though.

I can really only answer question 3. That is no, God being "all knowing" does not mean that we have no will.

I use the term "all knowing" very loosly. IOW I really don't think God knows everthing specifically. I think He has a general knowledge of future events.

[juliann]

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

It is logically impossible. What we know about what he knows is irrelevant to what he knows. So trying to get past this by saying we have free will because we don't know what we are going to do isn't pertinant to omnicscience. Unless there is a possibility that we can do something different than God knows there is no free will. What we do is already decided and locked in stone. And that starts a new chain of sticky problems so we don't do ourselves any favors by defending the (nonbiblical) omnis at all costs.

I think this is a fairly new on our radar screens because LDS philosophy is just starting to take off. How this can be solved is another question but we do have to start with the axiom that there can be no free will if God is omniscient.

[juliann]

God, really, knows everything. But he has to let us discover it ourselves. We also can't grow without going through it.

That may be. But we don't have ultimate free will. We can't have it both ways.

[LifeOnaPlate]

God, really, knows everything. But he has to let us discover it ourselves. We also can't grow without going through it.

Then we aren't really discovering anything ourselves. It's all to be what it will be; there is no meaningful individual agency on this view.

[LeSellers]

Then we aren't really discovering anything ourselves. It's all to be what it will be; there is no meaningful individual agency on this view.

Of course we can.

The fact that I knew something did not mean that my son did not discover it for himself. when he took the hammer, grinned and took a mighty swing as the stucco wall, then looked a bit surprised at the resulting hole in the wall, he discovered what I knew: he was in trouble.

When I know a mouse will follow a wall, and go where other mice have already been, it does not mean that I control the mouse.

When I know that the child climbing a tree will go so far up he cannot get back down on his own, I did not create or force the situation.

Foreknowlege does not eliminate agency. Indeed, it only (too often) saddens the One knowing. Yet, He restrict Himself to know interfering in 99.9999999% of the cases when His knowledge could let Him prevent the outcome.

Lehi

[mercyngrace]

Then we aren't really discovering anything ourselves. It's all to be what it will be; there is no meaningful individual agency on this view.

I have a son that is convinced he will never learn to read well. Having lived with him for a while and seen that he is a slow learner but that he always masters academic skills (typically a year late), I have no concern. You see, I've been watching him from before he was aware of himself and I know his potential and the pattern of his accomplishments. He on the other hand, has to practice daily in order to convince himself. Like every other skill he has mastered, he will come to me in a few more months and say "Mom! I have a new talent... I can read."

Did I remove his agency or did I place him in a situation that would allow him to realize his potential? He still has to do the work and technically he could choose not to (though I know he won't).

[juliann]

When I know a mouse will follow a wall, and go where other mice have already been, it does not mean that I control the mouse.

When I know that the child climbing a tree will go so far up he cannot get back down on his own, I did not create or force the situation.

Foreknowlege does not eliminate agency. Indeed, it only (too often) saddens the One knowing. Yet, He restrict Himself to know interfering in 99.9999999% of the cases when His knowledge could let Him prevent the outcome.

Lehi

Those examples don't explain the contradiction because there are opportunities for a change in behavior in both and you really don't know what will happen. Foreknowledge is predestination by any definition. The end is known. Out of all of the possibilities, only one will happen. You cannot surprise God. You cannot change your future.

It really isn't possible to talk ourselves out of this.

[staccato]

Those examples don't explain the contradiction because there are opportunities for a change in behavior in both and you really don't know what will happen. Foreknowledge is predestination by any definition. The end is known. Out of all of the possibilities, only one will happen. You cannot surprise God. You cannot change your future.

It really isn't possible to talk ourselves out of this.

Agreed.

[juliann]

Did I remove his agency or did I place him in a situation that would allow him to realize his potential? He still has to do the work and technically he could choose not to (though I know he won't).

But you don't know he won't. You are very sure he won't and even that assumes that life conditions will remain as they are. That is not omniscience. Every example given in this thread supports only free will. None of them are demonstrating absolute foreknowledge coexisting with free will. That makes it very obvious that our first priority is to save free will. But that has to be done at the expense of omniscience...and remember that omnisicience also requires that God interact with time in a given way. That is another set of problems.

Does it really matter if God knows everything or does it just matter that he knows enough and that he can handle every contingency when we actually do surprise him by using some free will?

[etana]

3 questions.

1. God said Samson would nail the Philistines. Did God know Samson would give up the goods to Delilah?

2. God said he wished none would perish. Does God know who will be saved?

3. Do you believe that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive terms?

1 Completely

2 Yes

3 No