No Progression Between Kingdoms!

[LDSBruin]

Then you do not understand the endowment ceremony. That is not what it means.

zerinus

So far I find the side arguing for progression between kingdoms to be the most compelling. Your arguments have consisted of most telling people they are dumb and that you are right. I'm not sure how that is meant to advance the discussion (in either direction), and if you aren't here to add something, at least stop derailing it.

[Rob Osborn]

Isn't the scriptural term (meaning standard works) for those in the Telestial and Terrestial kingdoms "damned"?

Certainly not or we would be considered "damned" right now. The term "damned/ damnation, is commonly misapplied in LDS doctrine because many want to attribute it to a different word and meaning- that of "damming" a stream where progress is either slow or stopped altogether. But that is a different word with a different meaning. The word must be used in the way that the original author used it- that of Joseph Smith who transalted the BoM and other scripture into a language we understand. As Joseph Smith used it, it always meant to "condemn to hell or the state of the condemned in hell. Either way, damnation is always in direct reference to "hell or outer darkness". It wasn't until more than a hundred years later that the word "damnation" took on a different meaning in LDS theology. This is becaue the opinions of a few men in the church in the early part of the 20th century decided that the word had a broader meaning and as such should be applied differently than the rest of Christiandom. The problem lies in the wrong application of the word.

I think alot of the confusion comes from this term. Ask any christian outside the church and they would tell you the term means hellfire and brimstone. "Damned" in the Mormon sense means that progression is "stopped" or "damned."

There is no scriptural support to give it a different meaning as we the LDS has given it. Every instance in our scriptures where the word is mentioned is done so in the manner of condemnation to hell.

Personally, I think progression between kingdoms isn't true, and very dangerous. For those who think that the Celestial kingdom is beyond reach with the sins they have committed, they don't understand the atonement, and for those who think they can wait to start doing the things they know they have to do in the next life don't seem to understand what the purpose of this life is for. The time to show our Heavenly Father that we are willing to start abiding His precepts is now, not later. The Book of Mormon is clear on this.

Progression between kingdoms is not a dangerous doctrine. A dangerous doctrine is teaching that most will be saved in the end even without accepting the gospel. It is indeed very harmful and dangerous to think that Christ will save sinners into a state of glory away from Satan who have not repented of their sins and have been washed clean through baptism. So, in essence, we play right into the devils hands teaching a doctrine that baptism really isn't necessary to be saved from Satan. This is exactly what Satan wants. the scriptures are very clear that ther is "one path" to salvation- being saved from hell and that is through obedience to the gospel. That is what we should be teaching, and yet we feel it not a bad thing if one brother or another rejects the message and that they will be just beaten with a few stripes in spirit prison and then be saved from Satan and hell in the end without any need for repentance and baptism.

So which is the more dangerous doctrine?

"Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful acrisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth bpossess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."

and again

"Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, awickedness never was bhappiness."

Given that the nephites did not readily have the doctrine of the work for the dead vicariously and that spirits can and will change after death, I can see where they would make such an asuumption. In latter day revelation we are told that the work for the dead in spirit prison is so that even then man can still repent and be forgiven and be allowed to be cleansed from all of his sins and live as God both in the spirit and in the flesh when he is again resurrected.

Someone who refuses to live the Celestial law here on Earth won't be any more inclined to live it in the next life. In fact, they are even given a second chance in the next life, not that it is any more likely that they will choose to live it, but to make sure all efforts are exhausted and they are left without excuse. After a second chance in the spirit world is rejected, is it really any more likely they will decide to change later on? The question really isn't about whether progression between kingdoms is allowed or not, the question is whether these people once in the Telestial or Terrestial kingdom will decide to abide a Celestial law. I'm willing to venture and say most likely not, as the scriptures do.

In reality, none of us measure up to the perfection required for the celestial kingdom while in mortality. That said, none of us will be judged solely off what we did in mortality. we will instead be judged by what we become after the millennium. At that point we will then be judged by what we have become at that moment. Spirit prison is designed as a place of torment so that the captive spirits will want to repent and accept the gospel. Torment can do amazing things for the souls of men, especially when they have a program for that escape! It is thus my opinion that almost all will repent of their sins through the gospel obedience in the spirit world and escape that torment.

Another reason why progression between kingdoms doesn'y make sense is because of the priesthood ordinances required of all of us to enter into the Celestial Kingdom. As Jesus said, in the ressurrection they are neither married nor given in marriage. What he meant is that all priesthood ordinances must be finished before the final ressurrection or judgement. That is why temple work is so important here and now. Once the final judgement is over, there isn't any priesthood ordinances that will be able to be performed.

I'm sure others that have been arguing for the possibility for progression may find fault with my logic or maybe my interpretation with scripture, but really nobody is sure, and this is just my 2 cents.

I remember the part in the D&C describing the glory of the Telestial Kingdom as being beyond our comprehension. This should tell us that if there is no progression between kingdoms, it isn't exactly unfair.

SteveO

Salvation only comes to those who inherit the earth after the millennium. Only those found worthy to enter into the gates of the city of the New Jerusalem will find the slavation of their souls in the waters of life/ tree of life. Read the last couple of chapters in the New Testament.

[JDave]

I can die, now.

And in peace ...

[Shadowolf]

In a more simplified way:

1 The souls in the Terrestial and Telestial are damned because they are stopped in their progress (by definition)

2 There is no such thing as Eternal damnation (DC 19)

3 Therefore the souls in the Terrestial and Telestial will not always be damned or stop progressing

How the Terrestial and Telestial souls will be able to progress is beyond me, since our probationary state is here on earth

The reason we are able to learn is because of the opposition and temptations of this world, so there must be opposition beyond the judgment in order for them to progress, great now I'm all confused...

Shadowolf

[Garden Girl]

The scriptural support is, so far, that at final judgment the books will be opened we will be judged according to our works and, thus, we receive the "glory" that we have lived for. Even in the Talmage view that has been quoted, he states that while progression within each kingdom is provided for, there is no scriptural affirmation of progression between kingdoms .

Yes, he goes on to speculate about eternal progression... repeat, speculate... but he does not state affirmatively that there is progression between kingdoms, nor cite any source that indicates such. Therefore, we are left with speculation only.

So again, IMO, lacking any definitive revelation on progressing between kingdoms, and several scriptures that indicate that we do not, my view is that we do not... but I remain open to the possibility when something more official than speculation is offered...

from the beach... The Garden Girl

[HiJolly]

In a more simplified way:

1 The souls in the Terrestial and Telestial are damned because they are stopped in their progress (by definition)

2 There is no such thing as Eternal damnation (DC 19)

3 Therefore the souls in the Terrestial and Telestial will not always be damned or stop progressing

How the Terrestial and Telestial souls will be able to progress is beyond me, since our probationary state is here on earth

The reason we are able to learn is because of the opposition and temptations of this world, so there must be opposition beyond the judgment in order for them to progress, great now I'm all confused...

Shadowolf

Perhaps it would help if you thought of *which* judgment you are speaking of... Does ANYONE know exactly when the 'final' judgement is? I don't think the exact time is defined in scripture, either. We know it will happen, and that the resurrection will occur BEFORE that.

HiJolly

[Mike Reed]

So far I find the side arguing for progression between kingdoms to be the most compelling. Your arguments have consisted of most telling people they are dumb and that you are right. I'm not sure how that is meant to advance the discussion (in either direction), and if you aren't here to add something, at least stop derailing it.

I agree. His/her unsubstantiated dismissal does nothing to further the discussion. I wonder if the moderators are following this thread. Perhaps Zerinus' "contributions" (or lack thereof) should be brought to the attention of the moderators.

[Mike Reed]

There are some serious ramifications for the church to deal with if the church came into the agreement of eternal progression. I am sure they have thought of these ramifications, especially when there has been documented accounts of past prophets and apostles speaking about no progression between kingdoms ever. The church rests silent on the matter I believe because they do not want to step on toes. For the cause of the church, it really doesn't matter one way or the other as far as missionary work goes. There will come a time however when the church will have to make an official statement one way or the other and when they do, there will be some in the church who will not believe it!

Although I (personally) refrain from predicting what the Church will do in the future about this, I believe there is much truth in your other remarks.

Just from the top of my head, the endowment says something to the effect- "...this (the world room) represents the Telestial Kingdom, or the world in which you now live".... After that the place where we live in- where mortal man dwells is referred to the "Telestial World". When we go through the rituals of the telestial room, we are then presented to be advanced into the "Terrestrial Kingdom". Many I have talked to have suggested that the naming of the telestial, terrestrial is just symbolic. I have spent a lot of time researching this, going back even unto early church documents and have come to a very positive conclusion that the only symbolism in the rooms are the rooms themselves. Even from early accounts of the endowment it was understood that this earth is the literal telestial kingdom and that in the temple they have a room that symbolizes that kingdom- that of the world room.

Agreed. This is my understanding too. Telestial Kingdom and Telestial World are explicitly paralleled. Therefore, the ceremony almost certainly implies kingdom advancement.

The only argument to be resolved then is if the telestial kingdom we now live in is the same kingdom spoken of in section 76. Both the temple account and section 76 use the same exact wording- "telestial kingdom", "telestial world".

Good point.

If they are completely different, then why would the Lord use a system so confusing where same exact terms refer to completely different things? I have often wondered if Joseph Smith was learning himself and did not understand many of the things revealed to him at the time it was revealed. The temple endowment therefore could very well be the explaination of the kingdoms and their placement and meaning in the plan of salvation.

As an agnostic, I am skeptical about the divine communication you speak of. The endowment (in my view) was created by piecing together various ideas that he had been exposed to Joseph Smith (and later Brigham Young) in the world around him; and as he creatively pieced them together (and as Brigham Young made modifications), he did so in ways that harmonized with his preconceived ideas, and also in ways that fulfilled certain needs that he (and the Church) had at the time. But for believer who may think otherwise, I think your argument would be quite persuasive.

The temple preparation class put out by the church teaches in lesson one that the endowment is the plan of salvation. This much I believe. I believe with my whole heart that the temple endowment ceremony is the complete plan of salvation where nothing is left out. The perhaps better understanding of the kingdoms as revealed in the temple resolves many of the problems associated with assignments to glories after resurrection.

I do know that if one very carefully reads section 76 there are a few very important scriptures that entail who the "saved" are and who are not saved. Up through verse 70 in the section every group is spoken of- the saved and the unsaved- those in the resurrection of the just and those in the resurrection of the unjust. Many do not realize it but verses 50-70 is a description of all of the saved, not just a portion of them. This is manifest in reviewing the qualifications spoken of in verses 40-44. Verses 40-44 speak of everyone except for the sons of perdition who are saved. In those verses, read very carefully, the saved are the ones who are cleansed from "all" their sins through the atonement. Then if one skips ahead to verse 50-51 he gets the testimony of this very group who is saved as mentioned previously in verses 40-44. It is encoded in such a manner that I do not believe that even Joseph Smith realized exactly what he was beholding and recording at the time.

And I would add that D&C 19 further suggests that even the sons of perdition may eventually be able to escape their torment and damnation.

From there, once that point is understood, when speaking of the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms peoples, no mention is made as to their resurrected status. This is because after verse 70, every person who has or ever will walk the earth is seen including the sons of perdition themselves. What Joseph is seeing, and may not be realizing at the time, is that he is being shown the process of the parable of the wheat and the tares unfold- that of the state of man as he progresses from the telestial world on up through the terrestrial world, all of which will take place before the end of the millennium. This is why for instance he sees the sons of perdition in the telestial kingdom (mentioned in verses 103-106, cross reference to Rev. 21: but sees them not in the terrestrial kingdom. In the terrestrial kingdom he sees all of the people who have missed perfection- that of a celestial level. The reasoning here is simple- none of us go from the telestial straight to the celestial because we all fall short of that perfection in mortality. We are all thus not truly valiant in the cause of Christ, hence why we progress from the telestial to the terrestrial so that we can obtain the perfection required to enter back into the celestial kingdom. This is also why the terrestrial contains the group who "died without law" because even them must be given the chance to become subject to the law during the millennium.

Interesting.

To me it is as if the prophet and others themselves got the wrong meaning of the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms and thus why the Lord then revealed the endowment ceremony with a plethora of citations in regards to the "true" meaning of the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms. Even to this day I wonder if we get it yet!

Again... for me, I do not start with the assumption that the endowment was based on divine revelation. But for those who DO believe this, your argument would seem to make perfect sense.

This is why i state it may be better to argue the validity of three separate worlds of glory after resurrection for the saved to dwell on rather than debate eternal progression itself. It should be clearly obvious that progression from one kingdom to another is the plan of salvation itself.

And from my perspective, it would be better to argue about what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (the main authors of the endowment) believed. But either way, I think the evidence tilts the scales in favor of Kingdom advancement.

Thanks for taking the time to share your perspective and research. Before I left the Church, I too studied this topic fairly substantially, and came to many of the same conclusions you have arrived at. I am convinced that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith believed in Universal Salvation, although Brigham Young seemed to think that the spirits of the sons of perdition would be broken down into the base intelligences from which they were organized, and be recycled all over again into a new spirit.

[Doctor Steuss]

One way of maybe looking at this is in a process philosophy sort of way. We will all progress in some way in the hereafter (much as we are progressing in the here and now). It is the very nature of being. We will either be progressing upwards, downwards or horizontally. Those who receive the highest kingdom will of course be at an advantage; especially if they choose to continue on their previous path of progress upwards. If someone whose progression in this life causes them to be placed â??belowâ? another individual in the hereafter, they will always be â??belowâ? (figuratively speaking) those who progress upwards at the same rate as this individual.

The reason G-d is the â??Most Highâ? and will forever be the â??Most Highâ? is because He is eternally self-surpassing in His progression. As long as He continues on His progression (which, it can be assumed He will as He seems to have established thatâ??s His modus operandi... or part of His â??beingâ?), He will forever be above all others. In this way, no one will ever be â??equalâ? to G-d.

On the same token, if a pompous know-it-all dogmatic zealot makes it into the highest kingdom, yet decides to no longer progress upwards, but instead embraces a horizontal ontology of being, then there is a chance that an individual who found himself in a lower kingdom could one day surpass the pompo-know-all-dogma-zealot.

Kingdoms may be nothing more than a classification of our state of progress. As noted earlier, it seems evident within the framework of Mormonism that a downward progression can be made, so it seems that the converse would also be true (opposition in all things). Within a given â??kingdomâ? an individual will have access to higher knowledge, glory, kinship, etc. (a kind of special access library card) â?? with the greatest of these types of access being access to the â??Most High.â?

The reason procrastination is likely not an advantageous course of action (besides my previous comments on placement and progression) is because procrastination is habit-forming. If you procrastinate in your progression towards becoming more enlightened (or a better person in general for that matter) in the here-and-now, it is likely that procrastination will continue in the here-after. The same can be applied to those who think they have already reached the position in which they will receive the highest prize. Although thereâ??s a chance these individuals may gain access to the â??Most Highâ?; by solidifying this attitude of attainment (i.e. a lack of humility) they are likely to embrace a horizontal ontology in the life to come.

To me, progression between kingdoms just makes sense.

This heresy brought to you by the Ketchup Advisory Board.

[Hermes]

Then you do not understand the endowment ceremony. That is not what it means.

zerinus

more substance plz~hermes

[Mortal Man]

And I would add that D&C 19 further suggests that even the sons of perdition may eventually be able to escape their torment and damnation.

This is exactly why the Apocalypse of Peter was banned from the bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Peter

[LifeOnaPlate]

And I would add that D&C 19 further suggests that even the sons of perdition may eventually be able to escape their torment and damnation.

That is what started tipping the scales for me in regards to ultimate condition; progression or no. A good addition.

[consiglieri]

Very interesting!

There is also a highly contentious section which explains that in the end God will save all sinners from their plight in Hell:

"My Father will give unto them all the life, the glory, and the kingdom that passeth not away, ... It is because of them that have believed in me that I am come. It is also because of them that have believed in me, that, at their word, I shall have pity on men... "

Thus, sinners will finally be saved by the prayers of those in heaven. Peter then orders his son Clement not to speak of this revelation since God had told Peter to keep it secret:

[and God said]"... thou must not tell that which thou hearest unto the sinners lest they transgress the more, and sin."

That Clement was such a blabbermouth.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mike Reed]

This is exactly why the Apocalypse of Peter was banned from the bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Peter

I don't think I am following you. What is your point? That the idea is therefore false?

[consiglieri]

I don't think I am following you. What is your point? That the idea is therefore false?

I thought he meant the concept itself was so radical as to keep the book in which it appeared from being canonized, although if I remember correctly, certain Christian churches did accept it as authoritative prior to A.D. 367.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mike Reed]

I thought he meant the concept itself was so radical as to keep the book in which it appeared from being canonized, although if I remember correctly, certain Christian churches did accept it as authoritative prior to A.D. 367.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Yah. Since this remark followed this statement from him:

There is no progression between kingdoms and this is why.

2 Nephi 28:7-9

I assumed that Mortal Man was attempting to substantiate this previous assertion, but maybe I am wrong. Anyhow, I agree with you that the quote you copied/pasted from the link he gave is indeed "very interesting".

[consiglieri]

I assumed that Mortal Man was attempting to substantiate this previous assertion, but maybe I am wrong. Anyhow, I agree with you that the quote you copied/pasted from the link he gave is indeed "very interesting".

You may be right, as you seem better able than I to keep track of posters' posts.

The Apocalypse of Peter could end up being the source from whence Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, et al, got the idea of progression between kingdoms.

Except for its date of discovery.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[zerinus]

In a more simplified way:

1 The souls in the Terrestial and Telestial are damned because they are stopped in their progress (by definition)

According to the Doctrine and Covenants, those entering the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms are considered "saved":

D&C 76

:

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them;

for they shall be heirs of salvation

.

89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the

glory of the telestial,

which surpasses all understanding;

zerinus

[zerinus]

I confess that I have never, in 30-years of being a Mormon, heard a member actually claim to know what the endowment ceremony "means."

Maybe; but at the very least they can know what it doesn't mean. It doesn't mean how to eat your spaghetti for example. Some of the meanings that are being given to it here is not much better than that.

I can die, now.

I thought you was already dead!

Sorry, couldn't resist the temptation!

zerinus

[zerinus]

So far I find the side arguing for progression between kingdoms to be the most compelling. Your arguments have consisted of most telling people they are dumb and that you are right. I'm not sure how that is meant to advance the discussion (in either direction), and if you aren't here to add something, at least stop derailing it.

I don't recall calling everybody "dumb;" but if you want to take it that way, then I guess you know something about yourself that I don't.

zerinus

[zerinus]

The scriptural support is, so far, that at final judgment the books will be opened we will be judged according to our works and, thus, we receive the "glory" that we have lived for. Even in the Talmage view that has been quoted, he states that while progression within each kingdom is provided for, there is no scriptural affirmation of progression between kingdoms .

Yes, he goes on to speculate about eternal progression... repeat, speculate... but he does not state affirmatively that there is progression between kingdoms, nor cite any source that indicates such. Therefore, we are left with speculation only.

So again, IMO, lacking any definitive revelation on progressing between kingdoms, and several scriptures that indicate that we do not, my view is that we do not... but I remain open to the possibility when something more official than speculation is offered...

from the beach... The Garden Girl

Thank you Garden Girl. That means there is at least somebody here that can talk sense. I almost despared! I bet you are as beautiful as you are clever.

zerinus

[zerinus]

more substance plz~hermes

Substance was provided here:

zerinus

[zerinus]

And I would add that D&C 19 further suggests that even the sons of perdition may eventually be able to escape their torment and damnation.

"May" is one thing; "will" is another. Speculation is not a substitute for knowledge.

zerinus

[Mike Reed]

Substance was provided here:

zerinus

This thread has progressed far beyond page three. Your "substance" (if you want to call it that) has already been thoroughly dealt with. Now you resort to merely restating your position.

[Nemesis]

This thread has progressed far beyond page three. Your "substance" (if you want to call it that) has already been thoroughly dealt with. Now you resort to merely restating your position.

I agree with Mike its time to move the thread along, if you don't have anything more to contribute then sit the rest of the thread out.

Nemesis