No Progression Between Kingdoms!

[LDSBruin]

"Change" may indeed only be possible in this life:

Alma 34

:

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this;

for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

zerinus

This is the key point for me, and the reason why progression between kingdoms doesn't bother me as a concept. Just because you can progress, doesn't mean you will. If you didn't have any desire to progress in this life, you probably won't in the next. I think that is what Alma is saying.

I certainly wouldn't want to put words into the Lord's mouth and say that the repentance process and progression end with the final judgment. If they do, that's fine. Either way, if you are planning on wasting this life and repenting later, Alma's point is that if you aren't willing to do it now, you likely won't be willing to do it later. At least, that's my interpretation of it.

[consiglieri]

I certainly wouldn't want to put words into the Lord's mouth and say that the repentance process and progression end with the final judgment. If they do, that's fine. Either way, if you are planning on wasting this life and repenting later, Alma's point is that if you aren't willing to do it now, you likely won't be willing to do it later. At least, that's my interpretation of it.

I agree with you on this, and I think that if a person loves God, they will want to serve him in this life as well as in the next.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Rob Osborn]

Rob, why can't you accept the teachings of modern prophets?

I very much do accept the teachings of modern prophets. I just have a different way of interpreting what has already been revealed. I guess it is my opinion versus theirs.

Do you believe you are more inspired, or more intelligent than they?

No, But I do believe that I have an intelligent mind and can figure it out on my own. What I have concluded is that there appears to be some serious contradictions with a three world glory model and how the saved souls are saved into each.

Do you believe the Lord would not correct them if they were teaching false doctrine?

In time, in time my dear Watson!

Many false doctrines in the church have arisen from time to time. Often the changes do not come until the prophet finds himself at the door knocking and wanting an answer. Personally i do believe that Lord has corrected the flase notion of three separate worlds of glory for the saved in the end. That correction is found in the House of the Lord in the endowment ceremony. But, it is up to us as a body to recognize it and seek the confirmation. The Lord is not going to force his truth upon us, we must ask!

Let me just state for the record one single point upon which all other false doctrines pertaining to salvation rest upon in our church-

The principle false doctrine in our church is the "belief that man can be saved from hell after judgment without repentance and baptism and yet also find themselves outside the Kingdom of Heaven"[/b]

The church teaches as "official" doctrine that there are some, which of coarse really makes up the majority of mankind, (the telestial and terrestrial) who do not need repentance or baptism to be saved from hell. This teaching is in direct contradiction with the entirety of the BoM, PoGP, Bible, and the D&C- all of canonized scripture, and also stands in contradiction to the temple teachings!

Prove me wrong- that is my challenge- prove me wrong that the principle false doctrine which I have brought up is wrong.

[stn9]

"Change" may indeed only be possible in this life:

How utterly ridiculous. If it were so, we could close up shop on temple work for the dead and not have to go to the temple but once in our lifetime. These words in Alma 34--I particularly note the language in v.33: "if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed"--were spoken some 74 years before Christ was born and over 100 years before He was slain, burried and resurrected. They were true when they were spoken, and that only to the degree of Amulek's knowledge of the missionary effort in after life and the vicarious temple work that would be conducted in the last dispenation. But these words--and this concept that repentance or change can only happen in this life--are not an accurate description of things as they are now, no more so than Christ's parable of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, as Joseph Fielding Smith explained:

We hear the objection made, from time to time, that Jesus did not come to save the dead, for he most emphatically declared himself that there was an impassable gulf that separated the righteous spirits from the wicked. In defense of their position they quote the words in Luke: "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

These words, according to the story, were spoken by Abraham's spirit to the rich man who raised his eyes and asked that Lazarus might go touch his lips and relieve his torment. Abraham replied that it could not be for there was a gulf fixed between them that the spirit of no man could pass. Therefore, say the objectors to the doctrine of universal salvation, "It is quite evident that the righteous and the wicked who are dead cannot visit each other, hence there is no salvation for the dead."

CHRIST BRIDGED THE GULF. This was true before the days that Jesus atoned for sin, which is plainly shown in the passage from the Book of Moses previously quoted. And it was at this period this event occurred. However, Christ came and through his death bridged that gulf, proclaimed liberty to the captives, and the opening of this prison door to those who sat in darkness and captivity.

From that time forth this gulf is bridged so that the captives, after they have paid the full penalty of their misdeeds, satisfied justice, and have accepted the gospel of Christ, having the ordinances attended to in their behalf by their living relatives or friends, receive the passport that entitles them to cross the gulf....

REPENTANCE ENDS ETERNAL SUFFERING. What good reason can be given why the Lord should not forgive sins in the world to come? Why should man suffer throughout the countless ages of eternity for his sins committed here, if those sins are not unto death? There are many good, honorable men who have wilfully wronged no man, have lived to the best of their opportunities, righteously, yet have not received the gospel, for one reason or another. Where would be the justice in condemning them forever in hell, "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched?"

We learn from the Doctrine and Covenants that eternal punishment, or everlasting punishment, does not mean that a man condemned will endure this punishment forever, but it is everlasting and eternal because it is God's punishment, and he is Everlasting and Eternal. Therefore, when a man pays the penalty of his misdeeds and humbly repents, receiving the gospel, he comes out of the prison house and is assigned to some degree of glory according to his worth and merit. . . .

SINS FORGIVEN IN SPIRIT WORLD. That sins are forgiven in the world to come, we need only refer to the words of the Savior: "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

This shows that some sins will be forgiven in the world to come. We are also informed in First Corinthians that, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." But we have hope in Christ both in this life and in the life to come.

This "fixed gulf" that prevented passage was overcome--this "night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed" was ended--in 33 AD. Indeed, Alma and Amulek may have thought death was the end of any chance men had to repent and perform their labors; and God may have let them think that and preach that; and God may have let Mormon include it in the Book of Mormon merely so that it could one day be explained "more [clearly stated] than [in Alma 34], that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for [His] name's glory" (D&C 19:7), just as is the case with the concept of "eternal punishment." (Come to think of it, Alma 34 is indeed a form of the incorrect "eternal punishment preaching" which Section 19 is intended to correct!) After all, He intended to withhold some details about the plan of salvation in previous times so that He could "deign to reveal unto [His] church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times" as stated in D&C 124:41.) So, if you really think change may indeed only be possible in this life, you're living in the wrong doctrinal dispensation and you should avail yourself of the light Joseph Smith brought into the world after 1830.

[zerinus]

This is the key point for me, and the reason why progression between kingdoms doesn't bother me as a concept. Just because you can progress, doesn't mean you will. If you didn't have any desire to progress in this life, you probably won't in the next. I think that is what Alma is saying.

I certainly wouldn't want to put words into the Lord's mouth and say that the repentance process and progression end with the final judgment. If they do, that's fine. Either way, if you are planning on wasting this life and repenting later, Alma's point is that if you aren't willing to do it now, you likely won't be willing to do it later. At least, that's my interpretation of it.

There are other passages of scripture that suggest that what we do in this life may seal our fate forever:

D&C 88

:

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22 For he who is not

able

to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who

cannot

abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who

cannot

abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the lawâ??

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

28 They who are of a

celestial spirit

shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are

quickened by a portion of the celestial glory

shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are

quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glo

ry

shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are

quickened by a portion of the telestial glory

shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.

35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin,

cannot

be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.

Abraham 3

:

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will

prove

them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall

not

have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

zerinus

[Jason]

I very much do accept the teachings of modern prophets. I just have a different way of interpreting what has already been revealed. I guess it is my opinion versus theirs.

You accept their teachings but have a different way of interpreting them, and it's your opinion versus theirs? Forgive me, but that doesn't sound like "accepting" to me.

Prove me wrong- that is my challenge- prove me wrong that the principle false doctrine which I have brought up is wrong.

If it were a principle that we had to know or be damned then God would correct it and reveal the truth through his appointed servants.

God has not done so.

Therefore the current teachings of the prophets and the Church regarding the three degrees are sufficient for us at this time, whatever may be revealed later.

If we act on what we currently have as if they are completely accurate then we have nothing to fear. God will not hold us responsible for a law we were not given.

If we act against them because we feel they will later be contradicted then we could get ourselves into big trouble.

You are likely correct that our understanding of the three degrees will be broadened with more light and truth in the future.

You are wrong to not accept that the Lord knows full well what is being currently taught by the Church and that what we have been taught is therefore as correct as we need it to be at this time.

[zerinus]

How utterly ridiculous. If it were so, we could close up shop on temple work for the dead and not have to go to the temple but once in our lifetime. These words in Alma 34--I particularly note the language in v.33: "if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed"--were spoken some 74 years before Christ was born and over 100 years before He was slain, burried and resurrected. They were true when they were spoken, and that only to the degree of Amulek's knowledge of the missionary effort in after life and the vicarious temple work that would be conducted in the last dispenation. But these words--and this concept that repentance or change can only happen in this life--are not an accurate description of things as they are now, no more so than Christ's parable of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, as Joseph Fielding Smith explained:

This "fixed gulf" that prevented passage was overcome--this "night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed" was ended--in 33 AD. Indeed, Alma and Amulek may have thought death was the end of any chance men had to repent and perform their labors; and God may have let them think that and preach that; and God may have let Mormon include it in the Book of Mormon merely so that it could one day be explained "more [clearly stated] than [in Alma 34], that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for [His] name's glory" (D&C 19:7), just as is the case with the concept of "eternal punishment." (Come to think of it, Alma 34 is indeed a form of the incorrect "eternal punishment preaching" which Section 19 is intended to correct!) After all, He intended to withhold some details about the plan of salvation in previous times so that He could "deign to reveal unto [His] church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times" as stated in D&C 124:41.) So, if you really think change may indeed only be possible in this life, you're living in the wrong doctrinal dispensation and you should avail yourself of the light Joseph Smith brought into the world after 1830.

Some people like to think that they can establish doctrine with a loud mouth. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. The subject of the discussion is movement between the different degrees of glory after resurrection, the final judgment, and everyone is allotted a place in the three kingdoms. We are not talking about what happens in the spirit world after death, what opportunities people may have there to repent, and what good temple work can do for them. There is nothing in the scriptures to suggest that once you are allotted your place in one of the three degrees of glory after the resurrection and final judgment, that you can then change it.

zerinus

[stn9]

There are other passages of scripture that suggest that what we do in this life may seal our fate forever:

Wow. That one can hold to a "death-is-the-end-of-the-chance-for-change" view and be LDS is amazing, but I know--sadly--that many members do, even if unconciously. In response I would ask what you think temple work for the dead is all about.

As to your other passages of scripture, you can throw Section 88 out of your arguement unless you can find a proviso within it that states one must be able to abide a given law while in this life. I can't even find a suggestion in D&C 88 (contra your assertion) that this is the case. And Abraham? Three breif verses from the premortal council and your ready to say that "proving them herewith" and "they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate" suggests that death is the end of repentance? Really?

So I guess the "second estate" must only refer to mortality, because there are only two estates mentioned, and then comes glory in a kingdom. So estate one is premortal existence; and estate two is mortal existence; but existence in the world of spirits is not an estate or even part of an estate nor even mentioned (so is perhaps a lie after all!), and existence as a resurrected being in a kingdom is not mentioned as being an estate. So after the resurrection we are estateless, according to a strict reading of Abraham: kingdoms without estate.

Hrm. I would suggest constructing one's view of the plan of salvation from all that has been revealed. The first estate is God's presence--life with Him where He lives; the second estate is life separated from Him--life in mortality and the world of spirits which is right here, on this mortal earth, all around us; and life in a kingdom where glory is added upon one's head for ever and ever is restoration to the first estate--life in the celestial kingdom. It's the parable of the prodigal son: he leaves his father, suffers in a degraded state where comes to himself, and then returns to life with his father.

[stn9]

Some people like to think that they can establish doctrine with a loud mouth. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

I am with you 100% on this. And I kindly note that I am not one on this thread proclaiming doctrine; I proclaim against uninformed doctrinal pronouncements such as have been seen here on this thread by others. So I loved the admission that "no intra-kingdom progression" is actually not a doctrine (despite all the attempts to imply or prove it is even to the point of citing scripture to support that view) because there is no offical position on the question.

The subject of the discussion is movement between the different degrees of glory after resurrection, the final judgment, and everyone is allotted a place in the three kingdoms. We are not talking about what happens in the spirit world after death, what opportunities people may have there to repent, and what good temple work can do for them.

Dodge. Unsucessful, but a dodge nonetheless. I know what the original post is about. I was responding to this patently errant idea: "'Change' may indeed only be possible in this life:..." Should I start another thread on this topic? Would you come there and discuss this view further?

There is nothing in the scriptures to suggest that once you are allotted your place in one of the three degrees of glory after the resurrection and final judgment, that you can then change it.

I have no doubt that you think this is true, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, no matter what I or anyone else may say. And I fully rejoice in that right.

[Rob Osborn]

You accept their teachings but have a different way of interpreting them, and it's your opinion versus theirs? Forgive me, but that doesn't sound like "accepting" to me.

If it were a principle that we had to know or be damned then God would correct it and reveal the truth through his appointed servants.

God has not done so.

Therefore the current teachings of the prophets and the Church regarding the three degrees are sufficient for us at this time, whatever may be revealed later.

If we act on what we currently have as if they are completely accurate then we have nothing to fear. God will not hold us responsible for a law we were not given.

If we act against them because we feel they will later be contradicted then we could get ourselves into big trouble.

You are likely correct that our understanding of the three degrees will be broadened with more light and truth in the future.

You are wrong to not accept that the Lord knows full well what is being currently taught by the Church and that what we have been taught is therefore as correct as we need it to be at this time.

So, are you going to take the challenge I gave you? Are you going to prove me wrong and give me scriptural proof that Repentance and baptism really aren't required in order to be saved from hell? Are you going to also prove me wrong that Christ cleanses and saves the majority of his children outside the kingdom of heaven?

[Jason]

So, are you going to take the challenge I gave you? Are you going to prove me wrong and give me scriptural proof that Repentance and baptism really aren't required in order to be saved from hell? Are you going to also prove me wrong that Christ cleanses and saves the majority of his children outside the kingdom of heaven?

No. Because bible-bashing never resolves anything.

I am rather going to appeal to your reason (as I have) and ask you to work out your poblems with the Church's current teachings with your local leaders.

God wishes to impress us that we cannot procrastonate the day of our repentence, and believing that everyone will eventually be saved regardless of how they behave in this life is obviously counterproductive to that, whether there is any truth to the idea or not.

Therefore it is better to believe that there will not be progression between the kingdoms.

[cjcampbell]

There are other passages of scripture that suggest that what we do in this life may seal our fate forever:

I guess that would depend on what is meant by "this life." If all have an equal opportunity hear the gospel, repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, then we certainly have to include our life in the post-mortal spirit world as part of "this life."

I believe that the endowment teaches us that we must pass through all three degrees of glory at some point. We live now in the telestial world. At some point, however, I think we have to make a permanent choice. At that time we are resurrected into perfect, incorruptible bodies that can no longer be changed. That choice cannot be put off forever. Were it not so, God would cease to be God and all of creation would cease to exist.

[Mike Reed]

I guess that would depend on what is meant by "this life." If all have an equal opportunity hear the gospel, repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, then we certainly have to include our life in the post-mortal spirit world as part of "this life."

I believe that the endowment teaches us that we must pass through all three degrees of glory at some point. We live now in the telestial world. At some point, however, I think we have to make a permanent choice. At that time we are resurrected into perfect, incorruptible bodies that can no longer be changed. That choice cannot be put off forever. Were it not so, God would cease to be God and all of creation would cease to exist.

Right. If Smith and the early saints did not believe that they would pass through the kingdoms, the tokens and passwords taught in the endowment (it seems) would have been pointless.

[usedbookdealer]

Well, he only says "it's reasonable". Consider the consequences of there being an actual doctrine that one can progress from one kingdom to another. Would not people procrastinate the day of their repentance? Why should I care about being good now when I can surely change later? What this means is that the BoM "eat, drink, and be merry" verse becomes prime proof that there is no such advancement.

I think of the no progession in between kingdoms notion in thermodynamic terms; entropy or delta s.

The Atonement provides enough energy to exalt everyone. However, when the time comes and the energy is expended, anyone who didn't avail themselves of it will find themselves in a state where there is not enough available energy to change state from one kingdom to the other. They might get warmer and warmer, but never achieve what it takes to go from ice to water or water to steam because the energy required simply isn't there; just the cooling exhaust heat of the orginal atonement.

-------------------------

Is there enough energy? Maybe the kingdoms have to be a certain size in relation to each other, and celestials pull more energy than telestials from the pool. Then- does salvation become like capitalism--a sort of contest between winners and ultimate losers? Evil/opposition/choice cannot be completely done away with.

Once God has attained all power and knowledge, his only increase is in number of subjects, and the amount of faith and obedience they can support him with./?

[stn9]

Bump for zernius to reply...

[consiglieri]

A lot of times Moses 1:39 is quoted in Church, but rarely is it quoted in context.

I think that if we include the two verses immediately preceding, it takes on a richer flavor that may indicate that God never gives up on man; and that it is forever his work to bring to pass man's immortality and eternal life.

Moses 1:37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.

39 For behold, this is my work and my gloryâ??to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Doctor Steuss]

I was doing a bit of light reading, and stumbled upon this which I thought worth sharing:

[They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, In My Father's house are many mansions. John 14:2 For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. Matthew 22:10 The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father...

Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter 36, 2 (New Advent Link)