No Progression Between Kingdoms!

[dblagent007]

I haven't read most of this thread, but I stumbled across this and thought it might be relevant.

"Jun 8, 1889 - Apostle Lorenzo Snow says that "his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith, was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received if from the Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came from the Lord or His oracle."

[zerinus]

I haven't read most of this thread, but I stumbled across this and thought it might be relevant.

"Jun 8, 1889 - Apostle Lorenzo Snow says that "his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith, was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received if from the Joseph the Prophet, her husband. He said he saw nothing unreasonable in it, and could believe it, if it came from the Lord or His oracle."

No citations given, so how am I supposed to judge the reliability of this quote? I did a search, and I found it on two or three websites on the Internet, all of which are anti-Mormon sites. The original source of the quote is apparently D. Michael Quinn, who is an apostate and against Mormonism. So how am I supposed to trust the reliability of this quote?

zerinus

[consiglieri]

Truth is truth, whether found

On Christian or on heathen ground.

[HiJolly]

No citations given, so how am I supposed to judge the reliability of this quote? I did a search, and I found it on two or three websites on the Internet, all of which are anti-Mormon sites. The original source of the quote is apparently D. Michael Quinn, who is an apostate and against Mormonism. So how am I supposed to trust the reliability of this quote?

zerinus

Actually, Mr. Quinn is not at all "against" Mormonism, and has said so publicly many times.

HiJolly

[Bsix]

I hold to the concept that our place in the eternities is God's grace and judgement based who we really are.

If there is no progression between Kingdoms, it will be because our natures have caused us to be where we most naturally exist. If it were in our nature to strive more, be more faithful, more Christlike, more pure...we would have done it already. Our eternity may simply be the stasis point of our eternal existence.

Those whose essence and faith befits the Celestial Kingdom may progress eternally simply because it is in their nature to do so.

I suspect that those who are in the lesser kingdoms may be perfectly at home and happy where they are.

BTW...this whole subject is a Gospel mystery. Fun to speculate about, but of virtually no significant bearing on LDS doctrine.

Regards,

Six

[consiglieri]

BTW...this whole subject is a Gospel mystery. Fun to speculate about, but of virtually no significant bearing on LDS doctrine.

You may be right about this, but if the various kingdoms of glory are worthy of one of the lengthiest sections in the Doctrine and Covenants, this subject may have some bearing on LDS doctrine, in my opinion.

If we can all agree that people have the ability to change during this brief span of time called mortality, I have trouble thinking they couldn't change during the eternity which follows.

And if God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, does all of that suddenly go away as soon we get hit by a truck?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bsix]

And if God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, does all of that suddenly go away as soon we get hit by a truck?

As I said, the inability to progress from Kindgom to Kingdom is most likely (IMO) our choosing. I suspect that we are placed where we are in the eternities because it is what we inately are...not from God being uninterested in our progression.

Regards,

Six

[consiglieri]

But if what we "innately are" can be changed in this life, why not in the next?

That is the foundation of my question.

And if what we "innately are" cannot be changed in this life, why are we here?

And if what we "innately are" cannot be changed in the next life, why are we there?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[zerinus]

Truth is truth, whether found

On Christian or on heathen ground.

Provided it is truth in the first place. Experience has taught me not to trust apostate and anti-Mormon sources without hard evidence. I don't dispute that some kind of a "source" for this quotation may very well exists somewhere; but is it a reliable source, or is it heresay? Is it something that somebody is supposed to have heard somebody else hear somebody else say, or is it a relaibly documented historical record? Is it a legend, a story; or is it a documented historical fact? Some people it seems are not able to distinguish between the two.

zerinus

[zerinus]

Actually, Mr. Quinn is not at all "against" Mormonism, and has said so publicly many times.

His writings tend to undermine it. I judge him by his actions, not by his words.

zerinus

[consiglieri]

His writings tend to undermine it. I judge him by his actions, not by his words.

zerinus

But the "actions" you are judging him by are his "words."

Oh, nevermind . . .

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. It's "hearsay," not "heresay."

[zerinus]

But the "actions" you are judging him by are his "words."

Oh, nevermind . . .

You know what I mean.

If you don't, then nevermind indeed!

zerinus

[annewandering]

I hold to the concept that our place in the eternities is God's grace and judgement based who we really are.

If there is no progression between Kingdoms, it will be because our natures have caused us to be where we most naturally exist. If it were in our nature to strive more, be more faithful, more Christlike, more pure...we would have done it already. Our eternity may simply be the stasis point of our eternal existence.

Those whose essence and faith befits the Celestial Kingdom may progress eternally simply because it is in their nature to do so.

I suspect that those who are in the lesser kingdoms may be perfectly at home and happy where they are.

BTW...this whole subject is a Gospel mystery. Fun to speculate about, but of virtually no significant bearing on LDS doctrine.

Regards,

Six

I can tell you right now I will not be happy anywhere but in the Celestial Kingdom yet I am hardly the person I would consider 'Celestial'.

This thread is pure speculation but it does make you think which is't really a bad thing, providing its kept in perspective.

[Doctor Steuss]

Truth is truth, whether found

On Christian or on heathen ground.

The First Grand Fundamental Principle of Mormonism in poetic form...

Brilliant!

[Jeff K.]

But authority only resides in one place. Regardless of where facets of truth be found.

[consiglieri]

But authority only resides in one place. Regardless of where facets of truth be found.

But can authority persist in the absence of truth?

I think most Mormons would say no, and point to the Catholic Church as exhibit number one.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. To Dr. Steuss--I heard that piece of doggerel on a religious radio broadcast over 20-years ago in Austin, Texas, and it has stuck with me.

[Lightbearer]

Lightbearer,

Thanks for your response, I was just testing the waters to make sure you were still there, eh eh.

Personally though, I don't mind debating topics with me but you make me out to be an apostate and I do not like your tone there. What, am I not able to have my own opinion just because I am no t an apostle or prophet in the church? What are we- a bunch of sheep blindly following our leaders? Open your eyes. Everything I have spoken on has doctrinal support. i make nothing up- it is all there in the scriptures and the temple. Just because I do not quote every opinion of men in the church does not make me an enemy.

Don't question my standing as an LDS member, I am entitled to my opinions just as anyone else.

So, thankyou, and Godspeed!

I do apologize for calling you an apostate, however this problem you have with D&C 76 seems to be a theme with you. Although I do understand the teaching that though a man errs in doctrine does not necessarily make him a bad man. I do get a little sensitive when people start saying the Prophet and Apostles do not know what they are talking about or the scriptures are wrong... As for "blindly following leaders" that tends to be an excuse commonly used for not heeding the words of the living Prophets. My eyes are wide open and I also do not believe in "every opinion of men in the church" that is why I am commenting and opposing what I consider false doctrine. Yes we are all entitled to our opinions but we cannot publicly teach those opinions and voice opposition to the constituted authorities of the Church without becoming an enemy of the truth. Oh and you are not the only one that I have accused of teaching "apostate" teachings, consiglieri for one I have clashed swords with as well. I do not intend to personally attack anyone but when I feel someone is trying to undermine the Church and the leadership of the Church I do tend to go on the defensive...

So sorry for my apparent harsh tone but I try to be a defender of the faith and I cannot tolerate attacks on the Church, it's doctrine or it's leaders.

[Jeff K.]

But can authority persist in the absence of truth?

I think most Mormons would say no, and point to the Catholic Church as exhibit number one.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

P.S. To Dr. Steuss--I heard that piece of doggerel on a religious radio broadcast over 20-years ago in Austin, Texas, and it has stuck with me.

All truth resides in one place, with all authority. Note my use of the word "facets".

[Rob Osborn]

What I find most intriguing is that besides section 76 and parts of 88, all of scripture only points to two places in the end to dwell- that of the kingdom of heaven where the Father and Son will dwell and that of outer darkness.

I have a few questions for the board (assuming that there are three worlds of glory after resurrection)-

If the terrestrial get Christ, why not the Father too, after all both Christ and the Father will share in the same glory?

I thought that Christ's throne was located in the Celestial Kingdom and that is where he will reign, not the terrestrial, why is that?

How is a terrestrial any different in the end than a celestial being, both have repented of all their sins, accepted the gospel and are holy without spot?

Why are the resurrected terrestrial beings cast off rom the earth at the end of the millennium, even though they accepted Christ and ruled with him building up the kingdom (the future celestial kingdom) for the thousand years?

Why are the telestial and terrestrial barred from the direct presence of God even though they both have repented from all their sins and are spotless? Isn't that the requirement to enter back into his presesnce- cleanliness?

How can the telestial be servents to the Fathers kingdom if they do not reside there?

Why are the telestial and terrestrial peoples not considered the "sons and daughters" of God? Whose their Father then?

Why are there "ministering spirits" assigned to help the telestial? Weren't all the spirits supposed to be resurrected at this point?

Why are the telestial ministered to forever by the Holy Ghost, does the Holy Ghost never ever get a body?

Why is it that some of the telestial beings die the second death, isn't that only for the sons of perdition?

Why does the parable of the wheat and the tares only claim the wheat as celestial beings and the tares as the sons of the devil? What about the telestial and terrestrial beings, who are they in the parable?

Why does the Lord call the telestial his enemies in one sentence and then turn around and call them his servents?

If the names of the telestial and the terrestrial are not found in the "book of life", are they then cast out into the lake of fire and brimstone with the devil and his angels as Revelation suggests?

If the telestial and terrestrial do not have access into the "holy city", then they have the same demise as the sons of perdition don't they?

I thought there was only "one plan" of salvation not three?

Doesn't Christ only mention one of two ways to spend eternity- either on his right hand unto eternal life or on the left to be cast out with the devil and his angels?

If the scriptures are so clear on the necessity of baptism to be saved from hell, why do the telestial get a free pass?

Why is section 19's description of the suffering always referred to the telestial beings and not the sons of perdition as is specifically mentioned?

How come no mention of the resurrected status of the telestial and terrestrial beings is made in section 76 if that is what Joseph Smith was specifically asking? Why are only the Celestial and the sons of perdition mentioned in that section as coming forth in either the resurrection of the just or that of the unjust?

Why is damnation equated to the telestial and terrestrial status when there are no scriptures that teach this doctrine?

Why do we teach that man can be both saved and damned at the same time? I thought if man was saved, he was saved from damnation, Am I wrong?

How come the teachings in the Book of mormon regarding the "plan of salvation" is not mentioned in the current "plan of salvation" which includes three kingdoms?

Why is it that after section 76 was revealed, the Lord then proclaimed that there would still only be two places for man to dwell- either in his kingdom or to be cast out?

If celestial law is the law of the gospel, and the ticket out of hell is also this same obedience to this law, why does it not bring celestial salvation to that soul, after all they have complied with the law of that kingdom?

Are we judged by our "what ifs" in mortality or our actual works?

If we are judged by our works in mortality, who has achieved the perfection required at the time of their death that would exalt them in the celestial kingdom?

I could go on forever with these questions- the more you begin to answer them the more holes that begin to appear. If you begin to truthfully answer them, you will find the same issues I have found. And no, I am not on the road to apostacy Lightbearer, just so's you knows

There are other questions, but for now these will do.

[Jason]

Rob, why can't you accept the teachings of modern prophets?

Do you believe you are more inspired, or more intelligent than they?

Do you believe the Lord would not correct them if they were teaching false doctrine?

[stn9]

I don't think this works because being on neutral ground, not knowing the gospel, this person can't even determine whether or not it's worth it to live a mediocre Terrestial (actually it's Telestial as only LDS can inherit the Terrestial) life.

I have not the pleasure of understanding you. Something does not work because of neutral ground? You'll have to clarify.

And "only LDS can inherit the Terrestrial"? What in the world? (What out of the world, for that matter). How in the world did you come up with that? Can you tell me how you read D&C 76:71-79, particularly verses 72, 74, and 75?

[stn9]

Rob, why can't you accept the teachings of modern prophets?

I wish I could warn all that it's pointless to try to reason with him on doctrine. So I love the relatively new "ignore posts by user" feature.

[JangoPOW!]

I don't think this works because being on neutral ground, not knowing the gospel, this person can't even determine whether or not it's worth it to live a mediocre Terrestial (actually it's Telestial as only LDS can inherit the Terrestial) life.Especially sight unseen.

Guh?!?? "only LDS can inherit the Terrestial"?!? Elaborate, please.

D&C 76:72,74: "Behold these are they... Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it."

Your statement implies that everyone who is not LDS is living a Telestial life -- including "honorable men of the earth" [see D&C 76:75], the same as the "liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie" [see D&C 76:103].

[JangoPOW!]

The problem with progression between the kingdoms is the attitude "I can do whatever here, pay for it later and make it to the CK." I sure wouldn't want to teach my kids that, true or not.

Actually, we do teach that to our kids. Or at least the Lord commands to do so [see here] -- What you described is called 'repentance,' and I hope you don't teach it to your children as simply as the way you stated it here. Repentance basically means that whatever you do here and now (this year, this month, this decade, whatever) can be paid for, nullified by grace of Christ, and you can STILL become exalted. Right? That's actually the "good news" of the Gospel -- second chances and merciful redemption from a just condemnation. We really are expected to teach that exact principle to our children. But be sure not to gloss over the gut-wrenching difficulty, soul searching, and remorse that accompanies repentance, in proportion to the sin(s). But a model of repentance which inserts an event as fleeting as death between the sinful behavior and the repentance doesn't really change the principle.

[zerinus]

You may be right about this, but if the various kingdoms of glory are worthy of one of the lengthiest sections in the Doctrine and Covenants, this subject may have some bearing on LDS doctrine, in my opinion.

If we can all agree that people have the ability to change during this brief span of time called mortality, I have trouble thinking they couldn't change during the eternity which follows.

And if God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, does all of that suddenly go away as soon we get hit by a truck?

"Change" may indeed only be possible in this life:

Alma 34

:

31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

zerinus