No Progression Between Kingdoms!

[Mike Reed]

I think the response of the office of the first presidency to the direct question being considered here in this thread indicates that your view is just as much not "official doctrine" as the opposing view.

Exactly.

[BCSpace]

How is it that Mormons have become so adamant there is no progression between kingdoms when James E. Talmage specifically holds out for the possibility in his landmark Articles of Faith, p. 409?

Well, he only says "it's reasonable". Consider the consequences of there being an actual doctrine that one can progress from one kingdom to another. Would not people procrastinate the day of their repentance? Why should I care about being good now when I can surely change later? What this means is that the BoM "eat, drink, and be merry" verse becomes prime proof that there is no such advancement.

I think of the no progession in between kingdoms notion in thermodynamic terms; entropy or delta s.

The Atonement provides enough energy to exalt everyone. However, when the time comes and the energy is expended, anyone who didn't avail themselves of it will find themselves in a state where there is not enough available energy to change state from one kingdom to the other. They might get warmer and warmer, but never achieve what it takes to go from ice to water or water to steam because the energy required simply isn't there; just the cooling exhaust heat of the orginal atonement.

[Brade]

Well, he only says "it's reasonable". Consider the consequences of there being an actual doctrine that one can progress from one kingdom to another. Would not people procrastinate the day of their repentance? Why should I care about being good now when I can surely change later? What this means is that the BoM "eat, drink, and be merry" verse becomes prime proof that there is no such advancement.

I think of the no progession in between kingdoms notion in thermodynamic terms; entropy or delta s.

The Atonement provides enough energy to exalt everyone. However, when the time comes and the energy is expended, anyone who didn't avail themselves of it will find themselves in a state where there is not enough available energy to change state from one kingdom to the other. They might get warmer and warmer, but never achieve what it takes to go from ice to water or water to steam because the energy required simply isn't there; just the cooling exhaust heat of the orginal atonement.

While I disagree with you I have to say, I REALLY like your thermodynamic analogy.

[Lightbearer]

The same argument could be given to the Book of Mormon which has a strong heaven or hell, saved or damned thinking in it. Does section 76 contradict the Book of Mormon in regards to the plan of salvation and the use of the word damnation?

No it does not, in fact it amplifies and explains those teachings in a more plain manner. It explains how we are judge for our works and that each person will receive the blessings that they have earned in this life through their obedience to the commandments.

The core of my last post had to do with Grant Underwood's paper in defining what "damnation" isn't. I should have explained more. In a foot note on page 2 he says that besides the sons of perdition "all the rest of humanity will in a sense be both "saved" and "damned". The underlying principle in the paper is correctly identifying the definition of both saved and damned. The paper also speaks of moving away from the old tradition of heaven and hell in the protestant sense of two locations because of the revelation of section 76.

Who is Grant Underwood and why should I really care what he thinks? Is he a Prophet or Apostle? If not then his ideas are no more valid than anyone else. As for the protestant sense of heaven and hell, I have always conjectured that they are thinking in the sense of the spirit world that has two basic divisions, and in fact hell is located in the spirit world. Being cut off from the spirit of the Lord (which is a Book of Mormon doctrine by the way) is what hell consists of, not roasting over an open fire. The vision in D&C enlarges upon that notion and explains how the degrees of glory represent our distance from God.

The problem however is quite obvious in that section 76 was written after the translation of the Book of Mormon which supposedly contained the "fulness of the gospel". For this and other reasons, the revelation now found in section 76 of the D&C was not openly part of their doctrine in the early church nor was it accepted as doctrine until years and years later. You see, the Book of Mormon teachings are very much indeed protestant style "saved or damned", heaven of hell teachings. Moving away from this saved or damned dichotomy left the intermediate saints with one of two options- either disregard the BoM as "the fulness of the gospel", or re-invent, so to say, the meaning of words and definitions to fit their "interpretation" of section 76 so that the BoM was still considered a valid doctrine.

So basically you think that the Church has falsified it's interpretation of Section 76? Maybe the reason the revelation was not a "part of early church doctrine" was because maybe some of the early members had a hard time shedding the false apostate views of their former churches?

Problems in scripture usually arise out of misinterpretation of scripture rather than the scriptures being wrong themselves. In order for the BoM to still be correct under their interpretation, a clever definition was given to the whole "saved or damned" dichotomy. Under the new interpretation, damnation would not necessarily mean "condemnation to hell" but rather anything short of Celestial exaltation. By a long stretch this appears to work. Where it fails dramatically though is that the BoM text does not call for any saved person to be called "damned", and that if one is truly saved, he is saved into the place where the Father and Son reside- the Celestial Kingdom. The pinnacle of the BoM is the teachings of Christ in the America's as found recorded in 3rd Nephi. There Christ firmly establishes as "his doctrine" the strict dichotomy of either being saved in the Kingdom of heaven through repentance and baptism or being forever damned to hell through the general lack of obedience to the saving gospel.

Yes of course the problem is not in the scriptures but in some peoples interpretation. You think the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve are in error in their interpretation, that is where I say you are dead wrong. You are constructing a problem where none exists. If you remove this doctrine (of degrees of glory) then you may as well join the Baptist or Catholic Church because there is hardly a doctrine in the Church that is more distinctive than the teaching of the three degrees of glory. If you have a "problem" with this doctrine then you really are not a Latter-day Saint.

The implications are thus obvious- either Christ was wrong, or the BoM was not transalted correctly! If the BoM was not translated correctly, the problems for LDS theology are paramount to say the least! There is one other alternative here, and it is what I propose-

The BoM is correct in its saved or damned dichotomy where if one is saved he is saved into the celestial kingdom and if one is damned it means that he is condemned to hell. This means that section 76 is either not recorded correctly or it is not corretly interpreted or a little of both! I will not go into all of that here as I have previously done so in this post as one can look back and see. But what I would like to bring up is that the whole saved or damned dichotomy was very much a part of the prohet Joseph Smiths revelations after section 76 was written thereby validating both that the church did not need to move away from the dichotomy teaching, and also that Joseph Smith himself understood later on in his life after he revealed section 76 that the doctrines of Christ regarding the saved and the damned as is explained in the BoM is absolutley true! What this meant later on in Josephs life was that he understood that at no time ever would man escape the damnation of hell without showing strict obedience to the gospel.

As it all relates to section 76, one should be able to draw his or her own conclusions that there certainly must be a general misunderstanding in correctly understanding what the angels in section 76 was trying to teach us! What I mean is that section 76 does not mean what we generally think it to mean because if it did mean what we think it to mean then the whole doctrine of salvation as presented by Christ in the book of Mormon is wrong! I leave you with Christ's very words-

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.

32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear brecord of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 11:31 - 34)

Your assumptions are that Christ did not reveal the 76 section of the D&C, only what was written in the Book of Mormon. Why do you insist on "hell" being "forever" when all the scriptures explain that the only ones who are eternally "lost" are the sons of perdition. It plainly states in section 76 that hell will have an end:

(D&C 76:35-48) "Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angelsâ?? And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made. And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto usâ?? That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness; That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. Wherefore, he saves all except themâ??they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their tormentâ?? And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows; Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof; Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again; Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation."

This sounds like some serious torment, but as it explains they are the only ones in which this torment is a permanent condition. The Telestial do not get a "free ride" to salvation:

(D&C 76:98-112) "And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of anotherâ??some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud. These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God. Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever. But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

These harmonize rather nicely with the teachings of the Book of Mormon and the Bible especially when viewed in light of the following:

(D&C 19:3-20) "Retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done. And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my nameâ??s glory. Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles. I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest. For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Whereforeâ??

Eternal punishment is Godâ??s punishment. Endless punishment is Godâ??s punishment. Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name; And it is by my almighty power that you have received them; Therefore I command you to repentâ??repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be soreâ??how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spiritâ??and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrinkâ?? Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men. Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit."

This verse gives the key to me of what damnation means, it means being separated from the spirit and light of God. That is why Paul and Joseph Smith used the Sun, Moon, and Stars to typify the type of glory that exists in the eternal worlds. The fullness of the glory of the Father is found in the Celestial (the Sun) and there is nothing brighter hence it is the highest heaven. It is the presence of the Father, the bright flaming glory of the eternal God. The Terrestrial is pale by comparison and it has the glory of the presence of the Son of God, the Moon being the heavenly body that is next in brightness and also the condition during Christ's personal reign during the Millennium. While this is a realm of glory that far exceeds this world, it is not the perfect and final state of being in the presence of God the Eternal Father. The Telestial is typical of the stars and as stated in the revelation seems to be composed of many different degrees (as one star differs from another in glory. While this glory surpasses our understanding, before attaining it, those who inherit this glory must suffer for their sins in hell (in the spirit world) and they will eventually be able to be ministered by the Holy Ghost (much like we are in this present world) and the revelation states most definitely that this state is final (no kingdom hopping as is indicated in this thread) and the last group which have been condemned to "outer darkness" which is to be totally cut off from the influence of God, even His spirit is denied them, so there sufferings are truly eternal in nature. There are those who would suggest that we (LDS) do not have "official doctrines" about the degrees of glory, but I would ask why do we teach them from the manuals that have been approved by the First Presidency if there is any "doubt" of these doctrines?

[LDSBruin]

Well, he only says "it's reasonable". Consider the consequences of there being an actual doctrine that one can progress from one kingdom to another. Would not people procrastinate the day of their repentance? Why should I care about being good now when I can surely change later? What this means is that the BoM "eat, drink, and be merry" verse becomes prime proof that there is no such advancement.

That's a good point, but consider also the fact that final judgment is generally not considered to be the best reason to avoid procrastinating the day of our repentance. We are taught that the best reasons are because we love the Savior and want to be better. Why is it important to move to a higher level of motivation? Maybe because the motivation of final judgment isn't as final as we thought it was? Just pure speculation.

Also, I think the BoM remains valid because if we "eat, drink and be merry" there will still be harsh consequences even if we accept the progression between kingdoms model being discussed here. They just won't be eternal (as in never-ending) consequences.

Anyway, I'm not entirely sold either way, but I find it a very interesting topic.

[Mike Reed]

True; except that the scriptural quotes given (see the ones given by Lightbearer) seem to lean more strongly against advancement between the kingdoms than in favor of it.

Lightbearer's quotes:

(D&C 76:109-112) "But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

(D&C 131:1-4) "IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase."

(D&C 132:15-17) "Therefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world. Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in marriage; but are appointed angels in heaven, which angels are ministering servants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory. For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever."

---------------------------------------------

I respond: I don't see how these passages negate the possibility for kingdom advancement, especially considering the fact that the early Saints believed they could be sealed/married to the deceased. It through this sealing process (including those done by proxy for the deceased), I am convinced, that the Early Saints believed the universal salvation could come to pass. Again consider these quotes about the guaranteed salvation of children:

The Prophet Joseph Smith declaredâ??and he never taught more comforting doctrineâ??that the eternal sealings of faithful parents and the divine promises made to them for valiant service in the Cause of Truth, would save not only themselves, but likewise their posterity. Though some of the sheep may wander, the eye of the Shepherd is upon them, and sooner or later they will feel the tentacles of Divine Providence reaching out after them and drawing them back to the fold. Either in this life or the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice; they will suffer for their sins; and may tread a thorny path [work hard to qualify for advancement?]; but if it leads them at last, like the penitent Prodigal, to a loving and forgiving fatherâ??s heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain. Pray for your careless and disobedient children; hold on to them with your faith. Hope on, trust on, till you see the salvation of God. (Elder Orson F. Whitney, Conference Report, April 1929, 110).

Brigham Young: Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and Kingdom, take a righteous course, and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord by their faith and prayers, I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will return again to the fountain from whence they sprang.â?

(As quoted by Joseph Fielding Smith in Doctrines of Salvation, 2:90-91)

Lorenzo Snow: If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity. (Collected Discourses, 3:364)

If Adam and Eve were faithful in their duties as parents (as early Mormons generally believed), then according to these quotes above, they were guaranteed the eventual salvation and exaltation of their children; which would provide a ripple effect to eventually allow the salvation for all of Adam and Eve's posterity in the end.

[zerinus]

That may be true but I think the response of the office of the first presidency to the direct question being considered here in this thread indicates that your view is just as much not "official doctrine" as the opposing view.

I agree with the official view, that the Church has not taken an official stand on the subject, or that enough has not been revealed to enable us to reach a definitive conclusion. The observation that the scriptures tend to lean more in favor of no transmigration than its opposite, neither agrees with nor contradicts the Church's official position.

zerinus

[Mike Reed]

I agree with the official view, that the Church has not taken an official stand on the subject, or that enough has not been revealed to enable us to reach a definitive conclusion. The observation that the scriptures tend to lean more in favor of no transmigration than its opposite, neither agrees with nor contradicts the Church's official position.

zerinus

So now you concede that there is no official doctrine? And that scripture isn't explicit enough to settle the matter difinitively?

[zerinus]

So now you concede that there is no official doctrine? And that scripture isn't explicit enough to settle the matter difinitively?

No, that is not what I had said. Go and read it again, and you will see that that is not what I had said.

zerinus

[Mike Reed]

No, that is not what I had said. Go and read it again, and you will see that that is not what I had said.

zerinus

I read it again, and don't see how I misread your marks. Perhaps you could explain in more detail. You said, "the Church has not taken an official stand on the subject," and conceded that "enough has not been revealed to enable us to reach a definitive conclusion," and condeded further that "scriptures [only] tend to lean more in favor of no transmigration." Are you trying to ride both sides of the teeter-totter? Careful, you may be vulnerable to a crotch-kick!

[Rob Osborn]

Lightbearer,

Thanks for your response, I was just testing the waters to make sure you were still there, eh eh.

Personally though, I don't mind debating topics with me but you make me out to be an apostate and I do not like your tone there. What, am I not able to have my own opinion just because I am no t an apostle or prophet in the church? What are we- a bunch of sheep blindly following our leaders? Open your eyes. Everything I have spoken on has doctrinal support. i make nothing up- it is all there in the scriptures and the temple. Just because I do not quote every opinion of men in the church does not make me an enemy.

Don't question my standing as an LDS member, I am entitled to my opinions just as anyone else.

So, thankyou, and Godspeed!

[consiglieri]

Well, he only says "it's reasonable". Consider the consequences of there being an actual doctrine that one can progress from one kingdom to another. Would not people procrastinate the day of their repentance? Why should I care about being good now when I can surely change later? What this means is that the BoM "eat, drink, and be merry" verse becomes prime proof that there is no such advancement.

Here, I think you have hit on something important, BCSpace.

In the innumerable "grace v. works" threads, most Mormons are of the opinion that "good works" must be done out of love for God in order to be efficacious, and not out of self-interest.

If that is indeed the case, the possibility of eternal progression, even between kingdoms, should not diminish good works done out of love for God, but only those done out of self-interest, which were never efficacious in the first place.

In fact, one could argue that love of God would only increase upon learning that his mercy toward us is extended not only in this life, but in the eternities to come.

What do you think?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Edited to add: I see LDSBruin beat me to the punch!

[BCSpace]

While I disagree with you I have to say, I REALLY like your thermodynamic analogy.

My favorite college engineering course.

Marge: I'm worried about the kids, Homey. Lisa's becoming very obsessive. This morning I caught her trying to dissect her own raincoat.

Homer: [scoffs] I know. And this perpetual motion machine she made today is a joke! It just keeps going faster and faster.

Marge: And Bart isn't doing very well either. He needs boundaries and structure. There's something about flying a kite at night that's so unwholesome. [looks out window]

Bart: [creepy voice] Hello, Mother dear.

Marge: [closing the curtains] That's it: we have to get them back to school.

Homer: I'm with you, Marge. Lisa! Get in here.

[Lisa walks in, chuckling nervously]

In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

Simpsons Episode 2F19

That's a good point, but consider also the fact that final judgment is generally not considered to be the best reason to avoid procrastinating the day of our repentance. We are taught that the best reasons are because we love the Savior and want to be better. Why is it important to move to a higher level of motivation? Maybe because the motivation of final judgment isn't as final as we thought it was? Just pure speculation.

Well yes. But what's the incentive for achieving this higher level of motivation?

Also, I think the BoM remains valid because if we "eat, drink and be merry" there will still be harsh consequences even if we accept the progression between kingdoms model being discussed here. They just won't be eternal (as in never-ending) consequences.

We will be beaten with a few stripes (as the BoM accuses) and then allowed in. Again, no incentive.

Anyway, I'm not entirely sold either way, but I find it a very interesting topic.

Especially if I don't make it to the highest degree, I certainly would hope then there is a way. But I believe such a doctrine destroys everything.

[stn9]

We will be beaten with a few stripes (as the BoM accuses) and then allowed in. Again, no incentive.

So, to take this a little further, if a person who has never heard the gospel can live a life of complete, terrestrial-level sin and yet accept Christ in the spirit world and still receive the an inheritance in the celestial kingdom, where is the incentive in this life to learn or accept the gospel?

And why don't we stop missionary work and focus merely on bearing and raising children so that there will be an adequate mortal temple worker force during the Millennium?

Or why don't we tell people right up front that in our theology they can decline to hear our message now (even without knowing anything else about our message), live whatever type of lifestyle they want, short of being murderers, and then can later give us a fair hearing in the next world after they die and still accept it then and receive all the same blessings as though they had accepted it in mortality?

Or is it that surely God cannot and would not give such late-arriving laborers in the vineyard the same reward?

[Hermes]

keep it up everyone. good thread. respect and everything. good discussion.~hermes

[stn9]

Or better yet, why not kill every child under the age of eight? I mean, that way we could be saviors of men, maybe even exalters of men! Surely our theology presents a great incentive to institute a "Your-Family-Can-Be-Together-Forever-For-Sure" program in the Church.

[consiglieri]

keep it up everyone. good thread. respect and everything. good discussion.~hermes

Wow!

Positive reinforcement from a Moderator.

I'm not sure how to deal with this.

Has this happened before?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[LifeOnaPlate]

Wow!

Positive reinforcement from a Moderator.

I'm not sure how to deal with this.

Has this happened before?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I hear they do this right before a murder.

[Mike Reed]

keep it up everyone. good thread. respect and everything. good discussion.~hermes

Consiglieri's mother was a hamster, and his father smelt of elderberries!

You silly K-nnnnnnnnig-it!

Now go away before I taunt you a second time!

Edit: You too LoAP!

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

If Adam and Eve were faithful in their duties as parents (as early Mormons generally believed), then according to these quotes above, they were guaranteed the eventual salvation and exaltation of their children; which would provide a ripple effect to eventually allow the salvation for all of Adam and Eve's posterity in the end.

This comment of yours reminded me of two individuals I know who are told in their PBs that they will be Saviors and one who is told they will be a Redeemer (all three are future tense). It's not completely on topic for this thread, but now that Iâ??m thinking about it, it might be partially connected.

Do you (or anyone else) know what is meant by this terminology/promise given to some? I donâ??t believe it to be related to Temple work, as all three PBs have future tense verbiage for it (IIRC one of them has the added term of "in Zion," if that makes a difference).

-Stu

[zerinus]

My brohter and I have been talking about this for a while and he poited out that my understanding of DC 19 as it pertains to this issue may be erroneos

1 The souls in the Terrestial and Telestial are damned because they are stopped in their progress (by definition)

I personally donâ??t like the idea of describing the telestial and terrestrial worlds as a state of â??damnationâ?â??in spite of what is said on the Churchâ??s website. To me the scriptural language takes precedence; and the scriptures refer to it as a state of salvation, not damnation.

2 There is no such thing as Eternal damnation (DC 19)

You are now playing with words here! You are arguing in semantics. In D&C 19 that you are referring to, â??eternal damnation,â? â??endless torment,â? â??eternal punishment,â? and â??endless punishmentâ? are made more or less synonymous with each other. Now, according to all that the Lord has revealed about the telestial and terrestrial kingdoms, they are not places of â??tormentâ? or â??punishmentâ?! Some of the people who are destined for the telestial kingdom, who had been very sinful in their lives, will indeed (according to D&C 76) go to hell for a period of time to suffer punishment for their sins; but once that period is over and they enter into the telestial world, they will no longer be in â??torment,â? nor will they be suffering any â??punishmentâ?. They will be receiving the degree of â??gloryâ? that they are capable of handling. But the telestial kingdom is neither a place of punishment nor a place of torment. The â??tormentâ? that D&C 19 is referring to is something that will have already come to an end by the time they have got to the telestial world.

I may be wrong in using this scripture, it talks about the concept of "hell" when the souls are in the spirit prison, they will not suffer forever but their suffering will come to an end at the judgement day.

It is not so clear to me that the concept of â??hellâ? described in D&C 19 is referring to the spirit prison. It seems to me that it may be referring to the punishment that is meted out after the judgment day, which means after the resurrection. (See D&C 19:3â??4. See also Alma 40:6â??14, 20â??26.)

At which point they will receive a Glory, which is not punishment, a Glory is reward for keeping their first state and keeping at least some commandmets even if not completely valiant as the souls in the Celestial

3 Thus we see that Shadowolf is still searching for an answer, until we are given more light and knowlegde...

And you know what the Lord says: â??Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be openedâ? (Matthew 7:7â??8 ).

zerinus

[Mike Reed]

This comment of yours reminded me of two individuals I know who are told in their PBs that they will be Saviors and one who is told they will be a Redeemer (all three are future tense). It's not completely on topic for this thread, but now that Iâ??m thinking about it, it might be partially connected.

Do you (or anyone else) know what is meant by this terminology/promise given to some? I donâ??t believe it to be related to Temple work, as all three PBs have future tense verbiage for it (IIRC one of them has the added term of "in Zion," if that makes a difference).

-Stu

He may have alluded to a teaching that we will have the opportunity to become adams and/or christs for other worlds in the next life. I think it was either Lorenzo Snow or Wilford Woodruff who taught this, and it is somewhere in the Collected Discourses. I am doing a quick search, and haven't found it yet... but I did find something related to a previous remark that I made:

I wrote: I don't see how these passages negate the possibility for kingdom advancement, especially considering the fact that the early Saints believed they could be sealed/married to the deceased. It through this sealing process (including those done by proxy for the deceased), I am convinced, that the Early Saints believed the universal salvation could come to pass.

To add to this remark, Wilford Woodruff said:

"In searching out my genealogy I found about four hundred of my female kindred who were never married. I asked Pres. Young what I should do with them. He said for me to have them sealed to me unless there were more than 999 of them. The doctrine startled me, but I had it done." (Collected Discourses, 4:68)

[consiglieri]

To add to this remark, Wilford Woodruff said:

"In searching out my genealogy I found about four hundred of my female kindred who were never married. I asked Pres. Young what I should do with them. He said for me to have them sealed to me unless there were more than 999 of them. The doctrine startled me, but I had it done." (Collected Discourses, 4:68)

Another neat quote!

President Young was right, of course.

1,000 wives would be too much for any man.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mike Reed]

Another neat quote!

President Young was right, of course.

1,000 wives would be too much for any man.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Ha! Now that is something even this apostate can say "AMEN" to!

[BCSpace]

We will be beaten with a few stripes (as the BoM accuses) and then allowed in. Again, no incentive.

So, to take this a little further, if a person who has never heard the gospel can live a life of complete, terrestrial-level sin and yet accept Christ in the spirit world and still receive the an inheritance in the celestial kingdom, where is the incentive in this life to learn or accept the gospel?

I don't think this works because being on neutral ground, not knowing the gospel, this person can't even determine whether or not it's worth it to live a mediocre Terrestial (actually it's Telestial as only LDS can inherit the Terrestial) life.

President Young was right, of course.1,000 wives would be too much for any man.

Especially sight unseen.