No Progression Between Kingdoms!

[consiglieri]

Since when did Bruce R. McConkie=Church?

I don't know what you are talking about; and I don't like your smug attitude either.

zerinus

Oh, come now.

Nobody means Church like Bruce R. McConkie.

If Bruce R. McConkie didn't speak for the Church, then nobody ever did or ever will.

This is a dodge.

And what do you mean, you don't know what I'm talking about? I quoted it for you and gave you the source.

This is another dodge.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (Italian for "smug attitude")

[zerinus]

Sigh... Please. Symbolism by nature can have layers of meaning.

Because "I" like the idea? {chuckle} I am an agnostic exmormon, Zerinus.

How was I supposed to know? I checked your profile, and it tells me nothing.

Irony: Although you may think it improper and wrong for people to talk about ideas that are not declared doctrine by Church authorities, Church authorities are just as critical (if not more critical) of people who try to speak in their behalf and declare what is and is not doctrine, when what that person declares has not yet been "revealed" as official doctrine.

--Mike Reed (who has grown tired of dogmatism)

Since you are not a Mormon and I am, take my word for it that that is the symbolic meaning of the endowment.

zerinus

[Mike Reed]

But you're still cool!

Now you've done it. Now I am gonna have to add you to my friend's list.

And before you know it, you will have your temple recommend revoked, since you can no longer say "No" to question 7 (about supporting, affiliating, or agreeing with apostates).

You have crossed over to the Dark Side!

[zerinus]

Oh, come now.

Nobody means Church like Bruce R. McConkie.

If Bruce R. McConkie didn't speak for the Church, then nobody ever did or ever will.

This is a dodge.

And what do you mean, you don't know what I'm talking about? I quoted it for you and gave you the source.

This is another dodge.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (Italian for "smug attitude")

Since Bruce R. McConkie appears to be the "be all and end all" of your Mormonism, here is a quote from him. Hope you will find this more convincing:

â??One of the reasons we call our scriptures The Standard Works [is that] they are the standard of judgement and the measuring rod against which doctrines and views are weighed, and it does not make one particle of difference whose views are involved. The scriptures always take precedence.â? (Bruce R McConkie, â??Finding Answers to Gospel Questions,â? an open letter to all â??honest truth seekers,â? dated 30 October 1980,

.)

zerinus

[Mike Reed]

How was I supposed to know? I checked your profile, and it tells me nothing.

You aren't "supposed" to know. The problem is that you assumed and you were wrong. This happens a lot for you, I bet.

Since you are not a Mormon and I am, take my word for it that that is the symbolic meaning of the endowment.

zerinus

And take your "word" over Hiram Smith's? What about consiglieri's word, or the many other mormons here who disagree with you? Please. Sorry... but I am not impressed by your "credential" (singular).

[consiglieri]

Actually, Zerinus, it was Bruce R. McConkie's interpretation of the scriptures that always took precedence; which is what was involved in each of his "Seven Deadly Heresies."

You see, Elder McConkie, like you, just "knew" what was right.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You have crossed over to the Dark Side!

Ha!

I hear Jesus did a lot of that, too.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Tsuzuki]

So can people move backwards between the kingdoms? If someone in the Terrestrial kingdom thinks the party looks better in the Telestial, can they request a downgrade?

The answer would seem to be "yes".

"The distinguishing characteristic of a person is the possession of will, the power to accept or reject, to move or to stand still, to obey or to disobey. From the very beginning the being now known as man possessed a will, and by the operation of his will has reached his present condition. Above all other things, man is a will. If that be so, the training and use of the will is man's first concern. (D. & C. 93:31.)

The use of the will is the first factor in active life. Whatever is alive is always changing. The direction of the change depends upon the use of the will. When the will of man acts upon surrounding things and conditions to move man upward, that is, into a more complex method of living, he progresses. When the will acts in an opposite direction, man moves downward, into a simpler form of living, and he retrogrades.

Not only does the direction but also the rate of change depend upon the will. A man may progress slowly or rapidly as his will is used. Consequently, if the wills of personal intelligences have been used unequally, there must be among these intelligences unequal development. Some may have reached a high stage of development; others a lower stage; and yet others may be in condition of retrogression. The variety of attainment among intelligences may be of infinite number.

Will itself is subject to change. If it is used to help man progress, the will becomes stronger for advancement; if used to hinder man's progress, it becomes weaker. Progressive personalities thus acquire stronger wills for righteousness, while those that retrograde suffer a gradual weakening of their wills.

All this bears directly upon the plan under which man lives and moves and has his being."

- Elder John A. Widtsoe,

Program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

[Tsuzuki]

Since you are not a Mormon and I am, take my word for it that that is the symbolic meaning of the endowment.

I consider Mike a Mormon regardless of his relationship with Salt Lake. Also, as a Mormon myself (in good standing with Salt Lake), I agree with him that symbols, by their very nature, have multiple meanings. In fact, the main reason for them is because their meanings are too complex to be conveyed through normal language.

[1Peter]

I think eternal progression applies only to those who attain Exaltation. Why? Because the people who are in the Terrestrial and Telestial have chosen that they don't want any more. They are not, and eternally will not be, ready to receive more. They may get to the very pinnacle of each kingdom but they wouldn't accept any more because their personality or beliefs just don't mesh.

From my understanding those in the higher kingdoms can visit the other, not the other way around. So if there is an awesome party in the Telestial (if you want to go) you could. Though I think the party that God (The Father) will be at is the best you can get.

That's the way I understand it.

[consiglieri]

I think eternal progression applies only to those who attain Exaltation. Why? Because the people who are in the Terrestrial and Telestial have chosen that they don't want any more.

That's the way I understand it.

And I think you have expressed the majority view among Mormons, 1Peter.

But what is it, I wonder, that prevents a person from progressing beyond a certain point.

I mean, is it like a highrise apartment building where you run into a physical ceiling?

Probably not.

But if Brigham Young was willing to hold out hope for Satan and the Sons of Perdition (not to be confused with Roy Rogers and the Sons of the Pioneers), I think it behooves us to reserve judgment on this issue.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Tsuzuki]

I think eternal progression applies only to those who attain Exaltation. Why? Because the people who are in the Terrestrial and Telestial have chosen that they don't want any more. They are not, and eternally will not be, ready to receive more. They may get to the very pinnacle of each kingdom but they wouldn't accept any more because their personality or beliefs just don't mesh.

What if they change their minds? It would seem to me that only those in outer darkness would be be incapable of doing that. (Read my quote above concerning will.)

[Mike Reed]

I consider Mike a Mormon regardless of his relationship with Salt Lake. Also, as a Mormon myself (in good standing with Salt Lake), I agree with him that symbols, by their very nature, have multiple meanings. In fact, the main reason for them is because their meanings are too complex to be conveyed through normal language.

What the? Am I am in the right forum? What's with all the back patting going on here? You are giving me a bad name, darn it! That's it. I am done with MADb.

<------------------------Exiting stage left.

Oh wait! I am facing the audience.

Ahem... Stage left------------------------------->

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Or am I?

[zerinus]

You aren't "supposed" to know. The problem is that you assumed and you were wrong. This happens a lot for you, I bet.

Actually, you have a point here. On this forum, a lot of the time I am in the dark about whom I am talking to, until I get to know them better. This does not happen on any other forum I have been to. That is because on other forums, if I want to know what someone's religion is, I go to their profiles, and they tell me. I have been to CARM, I have been to CAF, I have been to Beliefnet, and a few other places; and it is the same in all of them. They all tell me in their profiles what religion they are in. And I always look, because I like to know. It helps to answer them better. But here, I go to peoples' profiles, and they tell me nothing! I think that is because the software they use is poor quality and badly designed. I is not anywhere near as good, versatile, intutive, and well featured as the ones used by CAF or CARM. They are sure ahead of Mormons as far as that is concerned!

And take your "word" over Hiram Smith's? Please.

Please yourself. Who is Hiram Smith?

zerinus

[Mike Reed]

Please yourself. Who is Hiram Smith?

The same guy Franklin D. Richards spoke of:

â??Hiram said Aug 1st. Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or reced to the Teletial or else the moon would not be a type, [because] it â??waxes and wanes.â??â? â??Words of the Prophets,â? pg. 24, Church Historians Office. (This is a small booklet kept by Brother Richards of the statements made by Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith.)

You know. Joseph Smith's brother?

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Sory to bait you like that, but I couldn't resist.

[consiglieri]

What's with all the back patting going on here?

The enemy of zerinus is my friend.

[Tsuzuki]

Actually, you have a point here. On this forum, a lot of the time I am in the dark about whom I am talking to, until I get to know them better. This does not happen on any other forum I have been to. That is because on other forums, if I want to know what someone's religion is, I go to their profiles, and they tell me. I have been to CARM, I have been to CAF, I have been to Beliefnet, and a few other places; and it is the same in all of them. They all tell me in their profiles what religion they are in. And I always look, because I like to know. It helps to answer them better. But here, I go to peoples' profiles, and they tell me nothing! I think that is because the software they use is poor quality and badly designed. I is not anywhere near as good, versatile, intutive, and well featured as the ones used by CAF or CARM. They are sure ahead of Mormons as far as that is concerned!

There are some who believe that pigeonholing people into artificial categories is counterproductive to a meaningful conversation.

[consiglieri]

There are some who believe that pigeonholing people into artificial categories is counterproductive to a meaningful conversation.

But it is helpful in answering the question they "should" have asked.

[1Peter]

Do you pray for your enemies?

I do, Satan being the main enemy. Do I ever think they will repent? Probably not, but we can pray for them anyway right?

I don't think it's a physical thing. If you read a little further down my post I said it is because their beliefs or personality doesn't want any more.

:Edit:

Just read a few more posts and I wanted to add that they aren't going to change their mind. I'm pretty sure that what they are going to accept and live then Jesus would judge rightly and place them where they are comfortable.

[Tsuzuki]

But it is helpful in answering the question they "should" have asked.

Talk with enough paradigm pirates, and soon you'll be able to do that without peeking at their brand label.

[Mike Reed]

It would seem to me that only those in outer darkness would be be incapable of doing that. (Read my quote above concerning will.)

And yet... there may be scriptural basis for thinking that even those in outer-darkness can escape. D&C 19: 6-12, 21, 22.

[Anijen]

My dad once told me if you take to perfect right angles parallel to each other those lines will never meet.

Then I learned that if those same perfect right angles are put on a sphere say are earth like the longitude lines starting at the equador they will meet and even intersect.

Perhaps as we grow (progress) and learn we will have our eyes opened to further light and knowledge.

Just my 2 cents

Anijen ~Italian for headache.

[Tsuzuki]

Just read a few more posts and I wanted to add that they aren't going to change their mind. I'm pretty sure that what they are going to accept and live then Jesus would judge rightly and place them where they are comfortable.

But if they can change their mind, then as they say, if there's a will, there's a way. And if one is conscious at all, then it is possible to change one's mind.

[consiglieri]

Talk with enough paradigm pirates, and soon you'll be able to do that without peeking at their brand label.

Speaking on my own behalf, I had zerinus pretty well figured out without looking at his underwear tag.

[zerinus]

The same guy Franklin D. Richards spoke of:

You know. Joseph Smith's brother?

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Sory to bait you like that, but I couldn't resist.

Okay, Hiram was the old spelling for Hyrum. So Hyrum Smith has (supposedly) decided that people in the terrestrial kingdom can move up or down on the logical basis that the moon waxes and wanes! And you think that is a legitimate way to determine LDS doctrine, do you? Well good luck to you. What more can I say. Remind me again, did you say you were an ex-Mormon agnostic?

zerinus

[Tsuzuki]

And yet... there may be scriptural basis for thinking that even those in outer-darkness can escape. D&C 19: 6-12, 21, 22.

Perhaps outer darkness is like absolute zero, and only possible in theory.