No Progression Between Kingdoms!

[zerinus]

You may think so, and every Church member may think so; but that does not automatically make it so. If a scriptural basis does not exist for it, then it becomes an indefensible concept.

There is no scriptural basis for exaltation?

What is wrong with describing the journey from a sinful state to a perfected state as "progress?"

What are you saying here?

-Smac

I have no problem if you want to define it that way, and if everyone agreed on that definition. Trouble is that no one else does. For example, people sometimes invoke the idea of "eternal progression" to suggest that God is also "eternally progressing". So, how is God "eternally progressing"? Is He "journeying from a sinful state to a perfected state"?

zerinus

[Mike Reed]

Trouble is that no one else does.

Not true.

Did you mean to say "not everyone does"?

[Rob Osborn]

The problem with progression between the kingdoms is the attitude "I can do whatever here, pay for it later and make it to the CK." I sure wouldn't want to teach my kids that, true or not.

And yet the opposite is even worse-

"You better go to church young man or you will be damned forever!!!" I grew up thinking in fear that I needed to obey because if I didn't and I fell away from the church, I could never ever come back!!! I know many including close family members that feel their sins are too great and that exaltation is now completely lost. to counter they just argue that the church is wrong. Personally, I feel for them and accept what they believe! Many others i know ill not come back to a church that instills such brainwashing fear in the members from the age of toddlers on up. Are we so afraid that our children won'tr accept the gospel on their own terms that we must threaten them with such things as them being forever expelled from their families in eternity?

There is nothing wrong in teaching progression between kingdoms. In fact I think it would have a greater and more sounder following by the members. The temple teaches progression between kingdoms as a mandatory part of the plan of salvation.

When properly understood, the doctrine of progressing from kingdom to kingdom enhances the probability that a person will begin to make the changes necessary in his life in order to be saved. In reality it comes down to either being saved or not. The longer one procrastinates hus salvation, the more he has to suffer in his sins. Sinning is not happiness! And, in hindsight, evryone saved will look back upon their conversion and wish they had accepted sooner and be further along the path. The important thing though will be that they made it on the path and that it is the one and only path that everyone else is on who are also saved. There is security in the knowledge that God creates laws only for one purpose- to exalt us. He has never made any laws that lead down separate paths of eternal happiness.

Teaching others about finding that one path which leads to exaltation has the greatest effect on the salvation of souls. Teaching vain and foolish doctrines about finding other paths leading away from exaltation into some other type of salvation is only what Satan wants.

There is only one location for the "tree of life" in eternity and that is only in the celestial kingdom. Anything short of finding the tree is either part of the journey towards the tree or part of the journey away from the tree into outer darkness. What if we were to say that the part of the journey towards the tree of life- the first part took place in the telestial kingdom? and then further along the path we came to the point where we were in the terrestrial kingdom? I don't think I am too far off from the truth here. The temple tends to agree also.

[Stargazer]

So can people move backwards between the kingdoms? If someone in the Terrestrial kingdom thinks the party looks better in the Telestial, can they request a downgrade?

Well, I was under the impression that someone in a higher (i.e. Celestial or Terrestrial) kingdom could visit a lower kingdom, but not the other way around. So, if there was a party in the telestial, invitations could be sent out to folks in the other two. But the question that presents itself might be: is the food or drink better in the celestial or the telestial kingdom? If it's better in the celestial (what would seem to be self-evident, else why would anyone want to go there?), then visiting the telestial from the celestial might be seen as a kind of "slumming".

[Stargazer]

Here you make an important point.

I cannot count how many times an unending hell has forced its way through the back door of LDS theology with Mormons saying that those who do not make it to the Celestial Kingdom will always suffer regret.

I tend to think they will get over it.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I tend to think that the reason they will get over it is because the glory of the kingdom they are part of will overwhelm any regret they may have felt. It will be the perfect place for them, in fact.

[Anijen]

I will endeavor to keep all the commandments as if there is no progression hoping for exaltation one day with my Heavenly Father. I hope to one day be a creator of a nice lil planet to fish, hunt, camp and enjoy the mountains, trees lakes and streams etc. If I find out later that there is progression from one kingdom to another I would not be jealous but happy for all of my brothers and sisters.

[Garden Girl]

I don't believe there is progress between kingdoms because of Eternal Progression.

I tend to agree with Lighbearer, thesometimessaint, and consiglieri in certain things they have said. I personally do not think that Talmage was saying that there was progression between kingdoms, but that there was within kingdoms... i.e.,

"...advancement within each of the specified kingdoms will be provided for, though as to possible progress from one kingdom to another the scriptures make no positive affirmation."

I don't believe we progress between kingdoms, but am willing to wait for more definitive revelation on this point.

In another post, consig suggested that those that are in a lower kingdom will not suffer eternal regret, but will "get over it." I tend to agree with this, because they received the glory they lived for and desired in their heart... so the glory of a lesser kingdom will be so much more than can be imagined, that I think they will be very happy.

Garden Girl

[kamenraider]

"Now the history of Josephs in Speaking of angels came down and took themselves wives of the daughters of men, See Geneses 6 Chapter 1-2, verses. These ware resurrected Bodies, Violated the Celestial laws."

--Joseph Smith (Nauvoo, April 13, 1843) George Laub Journal, BYU Studies, Winter 1978 V.18 #2, pg. 174.

"Resolved 2nd, Inasmuch as we have for years borne with the individual follies and iniquities of Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, and many other official characters in the Church of Jesus Christ, (conceiving it a duty incumbent upon us so to bear,) and having labored with them repeatedly with all Christian love, meekness and humility, yet to no effect, feel as if forbearance has ceased to be a virtue, and hope of reformation vain; and inasmuch as they have introduced false and damnable doctrines into the Church, such as a plurality of Gods above the God of this universe, and his liability to fall with all his creations..."

--Nauvoo Expositor, June 7, 1844, pg. 2.

"Hiram [smith] said Aug 1st [18]43 Those of the Terrestrial Glory either advance to the Celestial or recede to the Telestial [or] else the moon could not be a type [viz. a symbol of that kingdom]. [for] it [the moon] 'waxes & wanes'. Also that br George will be quickened by celestial glory having been ministered to by one of that Kingdom."

--"Words of the Prophet", pg. 24 ("Scriptural Items"); Scribe: Franklin D. Richards, August 1, 1843; CHO Ms/d/4409/Misc Minutes Collection.

"In conversing upon various principles President Young said none would inherit this Earth when it became celestial & translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods & able to endure the fullness of the presence of God, except they would be permitted to take with them some servants for whom they would be held responsible. All others would have to inherit another kingdom, even that kingdom agreeing with the law which they had kept. He said they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy & advancing to a celestial kingdom, but it would be a slow progress."

--Wilford Woodruff Journal, August 5, 1855.

These quotes suggest to me that those in the Celestial glory can regress, and that those of the Terrestrial can progress to the Celestial or regress to the Telestial glory (assuming that this is talking about post-resurrection life).

Also that those of the Telestial can progress to the Terrestrial glory. If this is true, could it be suggestive of some sort of reincarnation of Telestial people?

[Mike Reed]

During her stay in Nauvoo, Charlotte Haven (in 1843) also reported that Mormons believe there is progression between the kingdoms:

From what was said that evening I gather that the Mormons believe in three heavens, termed Tuestial [sic], Terrestrial, Celestial; that after death the spirit enters the lowest, and constantly progresses in spiritual knowledge until safely landed in the Celestial; and all that die without the opportunity of hearing or receiving the faith of the Latter Day Saints are consigned to purgatory to remain forever, or until their descendants or friends are baptized for them.

Charlotte Haven, "A Girl's Letters from Nauvoo," The Overland Monthly vol. 16 no. 96, p. 627.

http://www.olivercowdery.com/smithhome/188...0s/havn1890.htm

[consiglieri]

These quotes suggest to me that those in the Celestial glory can regress, and that those of the Terrestrial can progress to the Celestial or regress to the Telestial glory (assuming that this is talking about post-resurrection life).

Also that those of the Telestial can progress to the Terrestrial glory. If this is true, could it be suggestive of some sort of reincarnation of Telestial people?

Thanks for the awesome quotes, Kamenraider.

I especially like the one from Hyrum Smith!

In view of those quotes, it seems reasonable to hold open the possibility, if not the actuality, of both progression and regression between kingdoms.

D&C 130 was also mentioned, which posits kingdoms above the celestial kingdom. If there are such kingdoms, and if the exalted cannot progress between kingdoms, it sounds like even the celestial kingdom would constitute its own form of damnation.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Jason]

There is nothing wrong in teaching progression between kingdoms. In fact I think it would have a greater and more sounder following by the members. The temple teaches progression between kingdoms as a mandatory part of the plan of salvation.

Obviously there is something wrong with teaching it, or it would be taught in the Church. Apparently the Lord doesn't feel that it would lead to a "greater and more sounder following by the members" (whatever that means) or He would instruct the bretheren that it be taught.

In my view, the Temple teaches that obediance to the laws of a higher kingdom will lead to being accepted within that kingdom, not that we must occupy each of the kingdoms in turn.

[zerinus]

There is nothing wrong in teaching progression between kingdoms. In fact I think it would have a greater and more sounder following by the members. The temple teaches progression between kingdoms as a mandatory part of the plan of salvation.

We teach a doctrine because it is true, not because we like the idea of it. There is everyting wrong with teaching a doctrine the truth of which has not been revealed.

zerinus

[consiglieri]

We teach a doctrine because it is true, not because we like the idea of it. There is everyting wrong with teaching a doctrine the truth of which has not been revealed.

zerinus

The more trenchant question is why the Church teaches as true something that has not been revealed.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Rob Osborn]

Obviously there is something wrong with teaching it, or it would be taught in the Church. Apparently the Lord doesn't feel that it would lead to a "greater and more sounder following by the members" (whatever that means) or He would instruct the bretheren that it be taught.

In my view, the Temple teaches that obediance to the laws of a higher kingdom will lead to being accepted within that kingdom, not that we must occupy each of the kingdoms in turn.

There is no shortcuts into the celestial kingdom. We come here first to this kingdom (the telestial kingdom) in order to receive a body and then from here we go into the terrestrial kingdom. It seems to me that the pattern of moving from one plane to another - from grace to grace, is a fundamental part of the plan of happiness. The temple teaching progression between kingdoms seems to me like the green light by the Lord to have this doctrine teached.

What we learn in the temple is the "plan of salvation".

[The Nehor]

Well, I was under the impression that someone in a higher (i.e. Celestial or Terrestrial) kingdom could visit a lower kingdom, but not the other way around. So, if there was a party in the telestial, invitations could be sent out to folks in the other two. But the question that presents itself might be: is the food or drink better in the celestial or the telestial kingdom? If it's better in the celestial (what would seem to be self-evident, else why would anyone want to go there?), then visiting the telestial from the celestial might be seen as a kind of "slumming".

That impression is Mormon folklore. I wouldn't take it seriously. I think it's a 'nice thought' someone came up with.

[zerinus]

The more trenchant question is why the Church teaches as true something that has not been revealed.

I was not aware that it did.

zerinus

[zerinus]

There is no shortcuts into the celestial kingdom. We come here first to this kingdom (the telestial kingdom) in order to receive a body and then from here we go into the terrestrial kingdom. It seems to me that the pattern of moving from one plane to another - from grace to grace, is a fundamental part of the plan of happiness. The temple teaching progression between kingdoms seems to me like the green light by the Lord to have this doctrine teached.

What we learn in the temple is the "plan of salvation".

You have misunderstood that teaching. That traces the progress of man during his journey on earth, or rather the journey of the earth itself, prior to the final judgment. When man was first created on earth, he was in a terrestrial state. After the fall he (and all creation) entered into a telestial state, where he could be tried and tested. During the millennium, the whole of the creation including man will return to the terrestrial state that existed before the fall. That is what is meant by the tenth Article of Faith: "We believe . . . that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory". At that time all the righteous dead will be resurrected to enjoy that privilege, and to reign with the Savior on earth for a thousand years. Then at the end of the millennium there will be one final battle between the wicked and the righteous, at which the wicked will be destroyed and the righteous preserved; the earth itself will dies and be resurrected to be the celestial abode of celestial beings; and a final judgment will take place to decide the final place of everyone. The movement between telestial, terrestrial, and celestial that is depicted in the temple relates to that, not to movement between the kingdoms after the final judgment.

zerinus

[Mike Reed]

The movement between telestial, terrestrial, and celestial that is depicted in the temple relates to that, not to movement between the kingdoms after the final judgment.

How on earth can you possibly know that it is not both?

[baddonkey]

That impression is Mormon folklore. I wouldn't take it seriously. I think it's a 'nice thought' someone came up with.

But isn't that what happens when God visits people here on earth though?

[zerinus]

How on earth can you possibly know that it is not both?

I just do! That is the meaning of the Endowment ceremony. Everything has its own meaning. You can't add any old meaning to it just because you like the idea.

zerinus

[consiglieri]

I was not aware that it did.

zerinus

But surely you are aware of Elder Bruce R. McConkie's famous talk, "The Seven Deadly Heresies"?

Coming in as "Heresy No. 5" is the following:

Heresy five: There are those who say that there is progression from one kingdom to another in the eternal worlds or that lower kingdoms eventually progress to where higher kingdoms once were.

Now that you are aware the Church has taught as true something that has not been revealed, how do you respond to my "trenchant question"?

I will repeat it here for you:

The more trenchant question is why the Church teaches as true something that has not been revealed.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Mike Reed]

I just do! That is the meaning of the Endowment ceremony. Everything has its own meaning.

Sigh... Please. Symbolism by nature can have layers of meaning.

You can't add any old meaning to it just because you like the idea.

zerinus

Because "I" like the idea? {chuckle} I am an agnostic exmormon, Zerinus.

Irony: Although you may think it improper and wrong for people to talk about ideas that are not declared doctrine by Church authorities, Church authorities are just as critical (if not more critical) of people who try to speak in their behalf and declare what is and is not doctrine, when what that person declares has not yet been "revealed" as official doctrine.

--Mike Reed (who has grown tired of dogmatism)

[consiglieri]

I am an agnostic exmormon, Zerinus.

But you're still cool!

[zerinus]

But surely you are aware of Elder Bruce R. McConkie's famous talk, "The Seven Deadly Heresies"?

Coming in as "Heresy No. 5" is the following:

Now that you are aware the Church has taught as true something that has not been revealed, how do you respond to my "trenchant question"?

I will repeat it here for you:

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Since when did Bruce R. McConkie=Church?

I don't know what you are talking about; and I don't like your smug attitude either.

zerinus

[Jason]

There is no shortcuts into the celestial kingdom. We come here first to this kingdom (the telestial kingdom) in order to receive a body and then from here we go into the terrestrial kingdom. It seems to me that the pattern of moving from one plane to another - from grace to grace, is a fundamental part of the plan of happiness. The temple teaching progression between kingdoms seems to me like the green light by the Lord to have this doctrine teached.

This world may be telestial in nature, in that it is cut off from the presence of God, but it is not the same telestial kingdom that is the destination of inummerable souls after Judgement Day.

The glory of that telestial kingdom surpasses all understanding. (D&C 76:89)

And after Judgement Day, when souls are assigned to the three kingdoms, the Earth will be the celestial kingdom, not the telestial.