When Are We "required To Forgive All Men"?

[consiglieri]

A famous passage in the Doctrine and Covenants has God declaring that he will forgive whom he will, but of us it is required to forgive all men.

This is commonly taught to mean that we are required to forgive everybody, regardless of whether they ask for forgiveness.

I respectfully disagree.

I believe that once a person asks for forgiveness, we are required to forgive them, but not until.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bee Eff]

A famous passage in the Doctrine and Covenants has God declaring that he will forgive whom he will, but of us it is required to forgive all men.

This is commonly taught to mean that we are required to forgive everybody, regardless of whether they ask for forgiveness.

I respectfully disagree.

I believe that once a person asks for forgiveness, we are required to forgive them, but not until.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Keeping score of old scores and scars, getting even and one-upping, always make you less than you are. - Malcolm Forbes

Forgiveness is an embrace, across all barriers, against all odds, in defiance of all that is mean and petty and vindictive and cruel in this life." - Kent Nerburn in Calm Surrender

Sincere forgiveness isn't colored with expectations that the other person apologize or change. Don't worry whether or not they finally understand you. Love them and release them. Life feeds back truth to people in its own way and time. - Sara Paddison

Matt. 5: 48

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Are you required to forgive all men, even when they do not request it? Technically, no. However, how can you claim to be striving for perfection when you are not attempting to attain the perfect love of Christ. To deny forgiveness isn't something we are given as within our purview, regardless of the actions, or inactions, of the offender. That request is just an action on their part.

D&C 64: 10

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

But, this is probably much like many other aspects of the gospel, do what you believe is right.

[cjcampbell]

The scripture does not give rules that give us an 'out' if we choose not to forgive somebody. We are required to forgive all men unconditionally, whether they even know they have offended us or not.

Otherwise, you would not have to forgive people who do not know they have offended you, or forgive people whose apology you did not think was sincere enough, or people who you though had not gone through the full process of repentance, or whatever. Refusing to forgive sets yourself up as their superior, their judge.

There is a belief among some in the Church that those who offended you will have to see you at the judgment bar of God. This is a falsehood born of a desire to not have to forgive others. God is omniscient. He knows hearts, desires, passions, all motives. He does not need a prosecutor. Satan thought that God did need a prosecutor. That is what his name means -- the accusing one.

Refusing to forgive, then, directly aligns you with Satan in opposition to God. It is basically a declaration that you know more than God and are better qualified than God is to judge your fellow man. Pretty arrogant, if you ask me.

[emeliza]

It is also quoted in Matthew 6. "If you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. "

I personally disagree with you Consig. I think we are suppose to forgive everyone, whether they ask or not. I think it is more of a benefits to us then to the person we are forgiving though. Generally speaking half the people I get mad at never even know I am mad at them or need to forgive them. Obviously for bigger things it is harder, but I still think we are suppose to forgive people even when they don't 'repent' and ask for forgiveness.

[sleepyhead]

Hello consig,

I see the purpose of forgiveness as a benefit to the one forgiving rather than doing the person who needs forgiving any favors. What I do is surround the individual in light and ask God to provide the individual with the learning experiences he needs. I don't define what these experiences should be. Then I ask the same for myself.

[bluebell]

I disagree.

I believe we are commanded to forgive all men whether they ask for forgiveness or not. This is because of what being able to forgive does for us, and not because of what it does for the other person.

Forgiving someone has nothing to do with the other person at all. It is an act of taking our power back from those who have hurt us, from hurtful emotions that would otherwise hold us hostage, and it is ultimately an acknowledgement that we are alright with God being in control of such things, and not us.

A person who won't forgive will never have as good of a life as a person who will-i firmly believe that. There is a peace that comes from forgiving that we cannot get any other way and it is a peace that we NEED more than ever when someone has harmed us, especially if the harm was severe.

However, i also firmly believe that such forgiveness is beyond our capacities as mortal 'natural' men and that it only comes through the grace of the Savior enabling us to do more than is otherwise earthly possible.

And i also don't believe that forgiving someone means that we don't want them to be punished for their wickedness or that we think what they did was no big deal or 'alright' now. I believe it is a reflection of us and has nothing to do with the other person.

[consiglieri]

Making the common interpretation harder for me to swallow is the verse immediately preceding, which says that the person who does not forgive has the greater sin. It is not hard to think of situations where this approaches the absurd.

D&C 64:9 Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

I also think our understanding of the D&C passage should be informed by a Book of Mormon verse which is rarely cited in this context:

Mosiah 26:31 And ye shall also forgive one another your trespasses; for verily I say unto you, he that forgiveth not his neighborâ??s trespasses when he says that he repents, the same hath brought himself under condemnation.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Olavarria]

I believe that once a person asks for forgiveness, we are required to forgive them, but not until.

I hope Christ doesn't use that standard on me.

D&C 64: 10

10) I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

Just forgive the moron* and move on to better things: eternal lives, exaltations, thrones, dominons, powers. If we are eternally minded and striving to imitate the gods then we don't have time to hold grudges, or spend inordinate amounts of time posting on MADB.............yikes.

*We are all morons.

[John Williams]

Forgiveness is often a difficult thing. Rather than seeing it as a "requirement," maybe it's better to see it as a necessary part of healing when you have been wronged. When you don't forgive, you tend to hold on to the grievance and let it fester. Forgiveness helps you let go.

[Lightbearer]

A famous passage in the Doctrine and Covenants has God declaring that he will forgive whom he will, but of us it is required to forgive all men.

This is commonly taught to mean that we are required to forgive everybody, regardless of whether they ask for forgiveness.

I respectfully disagree.

I believe that once a person asks for forgiveness, we are required to forgive them, but not until.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

If this is the case then why does it say we are to "love our enemies, do good to those that despitefully use you and persecute you"? If we do not forgive until someone repents then does that mean we are allowed to hold a grudge? If so does that not effect our salvation? If we have bitterness in our souls (even rightly so) toward anyone can we have the spirit of the Lord with us? The following indicates that we must forgive all:

(D&C 64:8-14) "My disciples, in days of old, sought occasion against one another and forgave not one another in their hearts; and for this evil they were afflicted and sorely chastened. Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. And ye ought to say in your heartsâ??let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds. And him that repenteth not of his sins, and confesseth them not, ye shall bring before the church, and do with him as the scripture saith unto you, either by commandment or by revelation. And this ye shall do that God may be glorifiedâ??not because ye forgive not, having not compassion, but that ye may be justified in the eyes of the law, that ye may not offend him who is your lawgiverâ?? Verily I say, for this cause ye shall do these things."

This indicates to me that we do not need to wait for repentance to forgive, yet also it also does not mean that just because we forgive in our hearts does not mean the unrepentant must not face justice. The forgiveness of another has more to do with us than to the offender as indicated here:

(3 Nephi 12:22-24) "But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore, if ye shall come unto me, or shall desire to come unto me, and rememberest that thy brother hath aught against theeâ??Go thy way unto thy brother, and first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I will receive you."

I realize it can be rationalized that this is saying if we sin against our brother, but I think in the spirit of this teaching it is telling us that we cannot hang on to bitterness or rancor and be right with the Lord. Did Jesus say: "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" or did He say "Father forgive them if they repent"? I agree this is a "hard saying" and I think when we can actually do this we are approaching perfection, yet that is the teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[emeliza]

I don't think forgiveness means forgetting and I don't think forgiveness means okaying whatever happened, but I do think Bluebell is right that it is about letting go and not allowing that person to have power over you. I also don't think you need to tell the person if they didn't ask for forgiveness. It is a personal thing.

I understand what you are citing in the BoM, but I still think it is better to forgive all, even those who haven't asked.

[urroner]

Forgiving does not equate to forgetting. I wish more people would realize that. Just because I forgive something doesn't require that I become stupid and put the dude back as the same level of trust as before. No way. Trust has to be earnt and not just given.

As has been stated before in this thread, forgiveness is not for the other people when it comes down to brass thumb tacks, it's for me to let go of the past, stop being angry, and have it stop weighing me down. Letting go of the anger is and to stop seeking vengence are very important. It takes time, but it needs to be done.

I have two ex wives who stabbed me in the back and "got away" with it. I forgave them and have gone on with my life. If I hadn't forgiven them, my life, their lives, and the lives of our children would be a lot worse. I was angry with them for a long time, but eventually I had to learn to deal with that anger and let it go.

Forgiving somebody doesn't mean to let them walk all over you and stopping the other from suffering the just consequences of their actions, rather it's a mean of letting you to continue to walk the path next to the iron rod with you hand on the iron rod rather than walking a path with an iron rod in your hand and you looking for the offender's head to introduce the two of them...several times.

[Jason]

I think it's pretty clear that we must forgive everyone, and that if we don't forgive someone then indeed the greater sin is ours. The greater pain as well.

How many people have destroyed themselves by holding grudges? Far too many.

[alter idem]

A famous passage in the Doctrine and Covenants has God declaring that he will forgive whom he will, but of us it is required to forgive all men.

This is commonly taught to mean that we are required to forgive everybody, regardless of whether they ask for forgiveness.

I respectfully disagree.

I believe that once a person asks for forgiveness, we are required to forgive them, but not until.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Hmm...I don't think so. In this scripture God explains that he forgives who he will forgive--he has said he offers forgiveness only to those who repent. However, he requires that we forgive all--regardless of whether or not they repent.

And that definitely means we'll have to forgive some when they haven't asked for it or don't even want our forgiveness.

[Bruce Wayne]

Here's a thought:

Can we forgive people and at the same time righteously tell them that they need to repent?

I already know the right answer, and some of you others may already know the right answer too, but for those who don't it is worth mulling over.

I forgive everyone when they do something stupid, and I also truly love everyone, but that doesn't mean that I think whatever people do is hunky dory, or good.

Loving others, which always includes forgiving others when they are in need of forgiveness, also includes sometimes telling others when they are wrong or doing something stupid... and, of course, to know when someone is doing something wrong or stupid we need God to tell us what is right or intelligent.

Some people just don't know enough about what is good to do what is right on their own.

[katherine the great]

A famous passage in the Doctrine and Covenants has God declaring that he will forgive whom he will, but of us it is required to forgive all men.

This is commonly taught to mean that we are required to forgive everybody, regardless of whether they ask for forgiveness.

I respectfully disagree.

I believe that once a person asks for forgiveness, we are required to forgive them, but not until.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

What would be the benefit to not forgiving? Some things are incredibly hard to forgive. I cannot imagine ever forgiving someone who raped and/or murdered my child for instance. I could forgive someone for doing these things to me, but it would literally take intervention from God to help me forgive someone who did this to my child. However, if we don't forgive, we only hurt ourselves. Our anger and resentment will consume us and retard our own progress. I think God requires us to forgive because it helps us. I think we should constantly pray for the ability to forgive all things. The offender's attitude really doesn't have anything to do with it other than maybe make it easier for us to forgive them.

[Tabitha]

Here's a thought:

Can we forgive people and at the same time righteously tell them that they need to repent?

Loving others, which always includes forgiving others when they are in need of forgiveness, also includes sometimes telling others when they are wrong or doing something stupid... and, of course, to know when someone is doing something wrong or stupid we need God to tell us what is right or intelligent.

Some people just don't know enough about what is good to do what is right on their own.

I think this may be true in very, very rare cases. If you have a belief that you know what is right, and God is telling you what is right, and that it's your job to make the world right, you are setting yourself up to be simply an annoyance to those around you, or perhaps worse. I think people are only motivated to do what is right when they are in precisely the right frame of mind to change, and someone comes along that shows them enough love. Simply telling someone they are wrong, I think, fails 99.999% of the time. In most cases, living by example and showing love to those who are straying is far more effective.

I had an experience with a friend of mine who completely caught me off guard and told me that she had left the church. She had been a spiritual confidant of mine for many years, and she had played a major role in my decision to serve a mission. When she told me that she had left the church I thought I was inspired to do a "reprove with sharpness" kind of thing. I wrote her a letter where I called her to repentance and told her how important it was for her to get back on track. I really prayed for inspiration and guidance with that letter, but now I see it was simply an expression of my own anger and my own feelings of superiority. It would have been far better for her had I simply expressed my love to her and shown her that I was still her friend.

What I learned from that is that we cannot assume to know what God's plan is for anyone. The Holy Spirit does a far better job of calling people to repentance than I can. We can only love and be an example of righteous living, and when appropriate, bear a gentle testimony of those things we believe to be right and true.

[Bruce Wayne]

I think this may be true in very, very rare cases. If you have a belief that you know what is right, and God is telling you what is right, and that it's your job to make the world right, you are setting yourself up to be simply an annoyance to those around you, or perhaps worse.

I don't think it's my job, alone, to try to make the world right, as if it's just up to me and nobody else, but yes, I do know that I am someone who knows quite a bit about what is right and what is wrong and that I have been called to declare faith and repentance to all of the world, whether or not people think I am simply an "annoyance".

I think people are only motivated to do what is right when they are in precisely the right frame of mind to change, and someone comes along that shows them enough love.

First of all, how would you be able to tell if someone else was in the right frame of mind to change?

... say, for instance, when you were talking to someone on the internet?

Secondly, what would that "love" entail, when you did try to help those who you knew were doing something wrong, or stupid?

Once you thought someone was in the right frame of mind, so that they were trying to be in agreement with God's will, do you think you could then love someone enough to forgive them for all they were doing which was wrong while at the same time righteously telling them that they need to repent, or change their behavior to be more in conformance to God's will?

Simply telling someone they are wrong, I think, fails 99.999% of the time.

I'm not suggesting that we should simply say "You're wrong".

I'm suggesting that we try to teach people what is right, when we can see they are wrong, going into as much detail as you think would be necesssary to help someone understand what is right and why it is right, perhaps even contrasting that against that which they are doing which is wrong.

In most cases, living by example and showing love to those who are straying is far more effective.

Simply saying "showing love" is a little vague, in my perception.

What do you think it means to "show love" to someone?

Do you think that could perhaps include talking about what it is that is right, as opposed to what is wrong?

I had an experience with a friend of mine who completely caught me off guard and told me that she had left the church. She had been a spiritual confidant of mine for many years, and she had played a major role in my decision to serve a mission. When she told me that she had left the church I thought I was inspired to do a "reprove with sharpness" kind of thing. I wrote her a letter where I called her to repentance and told her how important it was for her to get back on track. I really prayed for inspiration and guidance with that letter, but now I see it was simply an expression of my own anger and my own feelings of superiority. It would have been far better for her had I simply expressed my love to her and shown her that I was still her friend.

The only thing I see which was wrong with your first attempt to try to "help" your friend was that you felt "anger" and directed that anger at your friend... if I have understood you correctly.

I seldom if ever have felt "anger" for someone while I was trying to help them, and at the same time I have had no problem knowing the difference between what is right (or intelligent) and what is wrong (or stupid) and feeling good about what I was sharing.

I think the problem is that people don't like to feel stupid even when what they are doing is stupid, and instead of directing their disapproval for feeling stupid at themselves and changing their own stupid behavior they then lash out at those who are trying to tell them the intelligent course of action.

People who don't like to feel stupid should simply stop being stupid, rather than continuing to lash out at people who are trying to help them become more intelligent.

What I learned from that is that we cannot assume to know what God's plan is for anyone.

Then you learned the wrong lesson.

We can know what God's plan is for everyone based on the choices they make.

The Holy Spirit does a far better job of calling people to repentance than I can.

Yes, in the sense that the Holy Spirit can bring what we say "home" to them so that they will feel the power of our words when we are declaring the truth to them, but people who don't already know about the Holy Spirit, or who don't already have the Holy Spirit with them, won't even know to listen to the Holy Spirit until somebody tells them or gives them a reminder... at which point it can be very helpful to tell someone what the Holy Spirit has told you.

We can only love and be an example of righteous living, and when appropriate, bear a gentle testimony of those things we believe to be right and true.

I do seek to be gentle, but when people recognize they are being stupid they sometimes still get angry at me, when what they should really be getting upset about is their own stupidity, at which point they should opt for the intelligent solution.

p.s. Righteous anger is anger which is composed of that which is good, or righteousness, so that when someone is doing something evil (or stupid), righteous anger will prompt you to do or say good (or intelligent) things to combat the evil (or stupidity). You can't do something evil and call it righteous anger.

Example: If I saw a man raping a woman, with the woman screaming for help, righteous anger would prompt me to pull that man off of that woman and try to do good things help that man rather than beating that man to a pulp... as well as helping the woman. I would defend myself against that man if he tried to attack me, but my goal wouldn't be to beat him senseless. That wouldn't do any good.

[Anijen]

A famous passage in the Doctrine and Covenants has God declaring that he will forgive whom he will, but of us it is required to forgive all men.

This is commonly taught to mean that we are required to forgive everybody, regardless of whether they ask for forgiveness.

I respectfully disagree.

I believe that once a person asks for forgiveness, we are required to forgive them, but not until.

Any thoughts?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I dis agree. When we wait poison (or the consequences of ones sins that hurt us) can take affect best just to get rid of it as soon as we can.

Hope you still like me, please forgive me for disagreeing with you?

Anijen

[Mormon Vader]

From Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball:

To be in the right we must forgive, and we must do so without regard to whether or not our antagonist repents, or how sincere is his transformation, or whether or not he asks our forgiveness. We must follow the example and the teaching of the Master, who said: â??â?¦ Ye ought to say in your heartsâ??let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.â? (D&C 64:11.) But men often are unwilling to leave it to the Lord, fearing perhaps that the Lord might be too merciful, less severe than is proper in the case.6

[consiglieri]

Hope you still like me, please forgive me for disagreeing with you?

Anijen

Of course I forgive you for disagreeing with me. But only because you asked!

What is harder to forgive is the seemingly endless name-changing of certain board members.

I agree with everyone who has chimed in with the fact that it is better for us personally to forgive than to harbor cankering resentment.

But to focus the issue more narrowly, what I have trouble with is the interpretation of the D&C scripture that a victim commits a greater sin than the perpetrator if the victim does not forgive the perpetrator, even if the perpetrator does not ask for forgiveness.

Any thoughts on that limited issue?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bruce Wayne]

What is harder to forgive is the seemingly endless name-changing of certain board members.

Just let it go, Will. Let it go. It's not worth the angst you are holding inside of you.

Besides, considering the fact that we all have more names than any of us would care to mention, it's not as if what that person is doing is wrong.

Who are you talking about, anyway? Do you even know his God-given name(s)?

I agree with everyone who has chimed in with the fact that it is better for us personally to forgive than to harbor cankering resentment.

Good, Will. That's very good.

You seem closer to becoming more of a perfectly good person than I thought you were already.

But to focus the issue more narrowly, what I have trouble with is the interpretation of the D&C scripture that a victim commits a greater sin than the perpetrator if the victim does not forgive the perpetrator, even if the perpetrator does not ask for forgiveness.

Any thoughts on that limited issue?

The person who doesn't forgive has a bigger problem than the person who needs to be forgiven.

What is so hard to understand about that?

We all need to be forgiven... FYI.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It is tough...here is a take on it...

Forgive

Forgive,

The scripture seemed to read,

As once again Iâ??d look.

Forgive,

The scripture clearly said,

Annoyed I closed the book.

â??Forgiveâ??,

The Spirit softly spoke,

Startled I did fear.

Forgive,

The Spirit louder spoke,

I pretended not to hear.

â??Forgiveâ??,

The Saviour said to me,

I quickly questioned , Why?

â??Forgiveâ??,

The Saviour said again,

â??For this I came to die.â?

Then bitterly I cried out

How can thou know my pain?

The wounds that I have suffered

My tears that fell like rain.

The quietly he spoke my name

And said, â??I understandâ?.

Reached out that he may lift me

With wounds in both his hands.

Ashamed I said, How can I?

He reminded me again,

â??For he who will not forgive,

In him lies the greater sin.â?

Forgive,

The scripture seemed to read,

As once again Iâ??d look.

Forgive,

The scripture clearly read,

I then embraced the book.

â??Forgiveâ??,

The Spirit softly spoke,

Now I did not fear.

â??Forgiveâ??,

The Spirit said again,

Once deaf, I now can hear.

â??Forgiveâ??,

The Saviour said to me,

â??To you this gift I give.â?

â??Forgive,â?

The Savior said again,

â??Do this and ye shall live.â?

William E. Lee

Copyright 1996

[ttribe]

What is harder to forgive is the seemingly endless name-changing of certain board members.

Oh man...not another Paul Rey sock puppet...now it's Bruce Wayne? Anyone want to start a prediction thread on what he'll choose next?

[katherine the great]

Any thoughts on that limited issue?

--Consiglieri

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on that too. If I don't (or can't) forgive the person who rapes and kills my daughter and that person does not repent, am I sinning more than him? According to the scripture, yes. That is hard to wrap my mind around.